[quote] if your weighing 170 which using my awful maths is roughly 11.5 stone. depending on your height thats not very big and i wouldnt worry 2 much about your lats atm. id just worry about lifting big, eating bigger and sleeping.
[/quote]
If he weighs 170lbs and can’t see much lat development he does not have a problem. However, if he can’t feel his lats working while doing pulldowns he does.
I’d say drop the weight and focus on technique. 90% chance, that’s your problem.
when you do lat pulldowns, have your training partner poke his finger in your lats. Then contract against it. Ditto on the recommendation on deads. start with your shoulders slightly in front of the bar and pull like hell. Not that goofy ass wind up pull some knuckleheads do.
Here are a couple of things to help you “feel” the lats.
1.) Practice flexing them, get used to that feeling. Learn the movement “backwards” essentially start in a flexed position and gradually return to the starting position concentrating on flexing the whole way through.
2.) Pull at the elbows, imagine your hand is simply a hook and concentrate on “elbowing” the weight down as if you were literaly elbowing someone in back of you or yourself depending on the movement.
3.) Try to incorperate unilateral movements
4.) Try pre-fatigue
5.) Train lats first in the week
6.) Use antagonistic pairings
7.) Perform first exercies on an unstable surface (e.g. warm up with a variation of pullups where your body is pulled “into” the bar on a smith machine and your feet are elevated on a swiss ball)
8.) Stretch the lats before, inbetween and after.
9.) Perform 1 1/2 reps with a double contraction
10.) Lighten up, I know the cool thing is to do “heavy-compound lifts” but I can tell you from having trained with Dennis James personally (and he has one of the bigger backs in the sport of bodybuilding) he lifts as heavy as he can but, makes sure to use a weight he can control and feel. Heavy is relative, what may be heavy for me may be light for you or whatever, it doesn’t matter. This isn’t an excuse to go grab the pink weights but rather I am saying to learn to use the muscle if you want to build it.Finally a great movement to get used to “feeling” the lats and learning how to contract them is the Stiff-Arm Pushdown.
It’s an isolation exercise for the “lats,” which is rare. Even though it IS an isolation exercise for the lats, the long heads of the triceps are involved in the movement as well. The long heads of triceps perform a similar function in bring the arm down towards the waist and can’t be removed from the movement due to their anatomy.
The Stiff-Arm Pushdown is also one of the ONLY back exercises that doesn’t involve the biceps in some way, making it a great teaching tool for helping you feel what it’s like for your back to work without relying on bicep assistance.
How To Do It:
To perform this exercise, all you’ll need is a high pulley and an attachment (bar or rope).
Set a moderate weight on the pulley - you won’t use a heavy weight for this exercise as it’s all about feel. If you go too heavy, you’ll have to resort to momentum to move the bar and that will defeat the purpose of the exercise.
Put both hands on the bar (overhand grip) about 6 to 8 inches apart. Take a big step back, bring the bar back with you. Lean forward so your torso is at about a 45 degree angle. You can have your feet set together or be in a lunge position - whichever is most comfortable to you.
Keep your abs tight and an make sure there is an arch in your lower back. In order for your lats to function properly, the lower back MUST be arched.
At the start position, your arms are in an overhead position and slightly bent but stiff. The cable weight is pulling up on your arms so your lats are getting stretched.
Now begin the movement, pushing the bar directly down and around in an arc. DO NOT bend your arms!! Keep them locked into that slightly bent position. All the movement should occur at the shoulders.
Push the bar all the way down to your thighs, squeezing your lats hard the whole time. Pause at the bottom then let the cable pull the bar back up, keeping tension in your lats.
As you come to the top, dip your upper body down a bit to increase the stretch on the lats.
For breathing with this exercise, you want to take a BIG deep breath at the stretch (top) of the movement. Inflating your lungs maximally at the top will increase the stretch on the lats and help you feel the lats working. As you push the bar down, exhale through pursed lips (like you’re blowing up a balloon).
This exercise can also be done one arm at a time with a single cable handle as well.
Go for moderate to higher reps with this exercise - it’s not a power-based exercise but more a “feel” exercise that you need to really keep form tight on. This exercise will give you a strong burning sensation in that lats because they don’t really get any break in the tension throughout the movement.
I like to use this exercise as part of a pre-exhaust style of set, working it immediately before another exercise for the lats such as a variation of chins, rows or pulldowns. Do a set of 8 to 10 reps of the Stiff-Arm Pushdown then go right to the exercise. I can promise…you’ll feel your lats working!
Since the Stiff-Arm Pushdown only hits the lats and leaves the biceps untouched, when you move to the other exercise for back (e.g. chins, pulldowns or rows) the lats will already be “pre-exhausted” and the biceps will help keep the movement going, pushing the lats harder.
It’s a great technique and very effective if you have trouble feeling your back when you train it.
Those should add a couple of things to your tool box. Hope that helps.
[quote]laroyal wrote:
7.) Perform first exercies on an unstable surface (e.g. warm up with a variation of pullups where your body is pulled “into” the bar on a smith machine and your feet are elevated on a swiss ball)
.[/quote]
I am trying to envision this… do you have a diagram or video? Thanks!
[quote]k8thegr8 wrote:
laroyal wrote:
7.) Perform first exercies on an unstable surface (e.g. warm up with a variation of pullups where your body is pulled “into” the bar on a smith machine and your feet are elevated on a swiss ball)
.
I am trying to envision this… do you have a diagram or video? Thanks![/quote]
I guess I did kind of half ass it on that description LOL ok let’s see if this is a little better:
It is basically an inverted row. There is a picture of it here
Performance points are: Get a full back stretch in the low position (focus on stretching the back not the arms) balancing the feet on a swiss ball (instead of the ground as pictured) keep the hips feet and shoulders aligned during the whole movement. Hope that helps:-)
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
PozzSka wrote:
If you want bigger lats, gain weight. The latissimus dorsi are actually pretty small muscles.
Start eating.
While I agree with your recommendation of “gain weight”, the lats arent “pretty small” muscles.[/quote]
In that picture you show, that seems to be a pretty well developed lat. If you cut open an average person (one who would complain that his/her lats were small) it isn’t a very large muscle. It is relatively flat, thought it covers some area, it isn’t particularly heavy or thick, unless it is developed. In our case here, the lat is a “pretty small” muscle.
[quote]PozzSka wrote:
In that picture you show, that seems to be a pretty well developed lat. If you cut open an average person (one who would complain that his/her lats were small) it isn’t a very large muscle. It is relatively flat, thought it covers some area, it isn’t particularly heavy or thick, unless it is developed. In our case here, the lat is a “pretty small” muscle. [/quote]
The soleus is a small muscle. The pec minor is a small muscle. The lats make up a large part of the musculature on the back and even in untrained individuals, are relatively large muscles.
My suggestions (some of which have already been mentioned):
relearn how to do back exercises (all of them), chances are from your description that you are an “arm dominant” puller (meaning that you pull your hands towards your body rather than pulling with your elbows, which you should be doing) so that you use your back muscles and not your arms.
do some isolation exercises for your lats, so you can better build a “mind muscle connection” with them. Basically you get better at voluntarily contracting them, and feeling them working.
As for actual exercises, straight arm pull-downs are ok, but if you can try to find a nautilus “pull-over” machine, as IMO they offer much more in the way of progressive resistance.
Or, you could try an exercise I came up with to simulate the nautilus machine. I call them “strap pull-overs”.
Just hook a pair of ab straps onto a lat-pulldown machine, feed your arms through the straps like you’re going to do hanging leg raises, sit down, and pull your elbows down to your sides (and even slightly back).
Viola, a lat exercise that completely removes the arm flexors (for anyone who feels chins primarily in their arms or is looking to isolate the lats), isolates the lats, and has a much better potential for weight increase than straight arm pull-downs.
Try straight arm pulldown on a high pulley machine as prefatigue.
On the high pulley machine, you stand against the pad with the pulley over your head and move your straight arms in an arc motion, which mimics the pullover. But you’re standing, so you can really put constant tension on the lats, which are pretty much isolated on this exercice. Try to do 2-3 long (~15 reps) sets keeping constant tension.
This prefatigue exercice will allows to feel your lats much better on the following exercice, weither you choose chin-ups of deadlift.
Emphasize the stretch position when doing pulldowns/btn pulldowns (to ear level at most, on the latter).
In fact, you can pretty much do 1 1/2 reps or even just do the top half or third of the movement… While making sure you get a good stretch.
Pulling all the way down doesn’t seem to do much for lat width, at least in my case…
Rack Chins are a great exercise for lat width, too…
You still need to get brutally strong on such exercises (for reps, and I’d say 8-10 at least…) in order to make your lats huge.
There is no way around lifting heavier weight for reps in order to get big.
And in order for strength increases in the bb rep-ranges to happen, you need to eat a ton and get adequate sleep.
None of these things work without the others being done.
Forget about lats, read a book.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Emphasize the stretch position when doing pulldowns/btn pulldowns (to ear level at most, on the latter).
In fact, you can pretty much do 1 1/2 reps or even just do the top half or third of the movement… While making sure you get a good stretch.
[/quote]
Of all things, the stretch is the one thing that has effected my lats more than anything else. As a beginner, I spent as much time hanging from a beam and “dislocating” my scapulae, as I did actually doing rows and chins.
Before my lats even developed, they were already wide from my radical stretch routine. I had an impressive v-taper even when I was still under 100 lbs.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Emphasize the stretch position when doing pulldowns/btn pulldowns (to ear level at most, on the latter).
In fact, you can pretty much do 1 1/2 reps or even just do the top half or third of the movement… While making sure you get a good stretch.
Of all things, the stretch is the one thing that has effected my lats more than anything else. As a beginner, I spent as much time hanging from a beam and “dislocating” my scapulae, as I did actually doing rows and chins. Before my lats even developed, they were already wide from my radical stretch routine. I had an impressive v-taper even when I was still under 100 lbs.
[/quote]
Did the wind push you around a lot ? 
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Did the wind push you around a lot ? ;)[/quote]
You should have seen me on a skateboard! lol
[quote]laroyal wrote:
k8thegr8 wrote:
laroyal wrote:
7.) Perform first exercies on an unstable surface (e.g. warm up with a variation of pullups where your body is pulled “into” the bar on a smith machine and your feet are elevated on a swiss ball)
.
I am trying to envision this… do you have a diagram or video? Thanks!
I guess I did kind of half ass it on that description LOL ok let’s see if this is a little better:
It is basically an inverted row. There is a picture of it here
Performance points are: Get a full back stretch in the low position (focus on stretching the back not the arms) balancing the feet on a swiss ball (instead of the ground as pictured) keep the hips feet and shoulders aligned during the whole movement. Hope that helps:-)[/quote]
thanks! so is this best used as a substitute to weighted chins/pullups, or in addition to?
Thanks for all your responses! Based on all the advice that you’ve given me, I came up with a back routine. I tried this routine today and I must say that I do feel the difference! Still, I’d appreciate your comments/critique.
(some of the exercises above were found from The Torso Solution )
Due to my current exercise routine, most of my sets are performed at 4 sets of 8-12 reps each.
My individual responses to people are:
thosebananas: I’ll try posting a picture soon.
PF_88: I don’t think a video would be possible, but I guess you wanted to gauge my technique. I’m going to pay extra focus to my form from now on.
Ramo: I think you’ve hit the bull’s eye! The most pull-ups that I’ve ever been able to do are 15! 
mr popular: I’m assuming you mean that I weigh too little but I am quite short - just 5’8". I have been blessed (read cursed) with an extraordinarily fast metabolism and I’m trying my best to gain weight. Couple that with uncertain working hours, and I have a tough time getting my 6-8 meals a day. I hear you and I’m working on it.
Pozzska: I haven’t really gained/lost in terms of numbers, but I have dropped fat content and increased muscle mass. Don’t ask me for numbers coz I use the mirror to judge rather than calipers.
Josh Rider: I’ll definitely keep this technique in mind.
saps: I was doing t-bars during my last routine and I’m not using them now to give myself some change and variety.
laroyal: Thanks! your post was most insightful. From what I could gather the Stiff-arm Pushdown seems similar to the Straight-arm Pulldown. Since I’m doing the latter I won’t incorporate it during my current routine but I’ll save it for my next regimen.
Sentoguy: Sorry, I don’t have a nautilus “pull-over” machine, but I’ll try it with the lat pulldown machine. Thanks!
[quote]51747 wrote:
Thanks for all your responses! Based on all the advice that you’ve given me, I came up with a back routine. I tried this routine today and I must say that I do feel the difference! Still, I’d appreciate your comments/critique.
(some of the exercises above were found from The Torso Solution )
Due to my current exercise routine, most of my sets are performed at 4 sets of 8-12 reps each.
[/quote]
Dude, this routine will kill your back, but what does that help you with?
It’s not about completely annihilating yourself each workout (and if it takes 7 exercises to do that for you, then you may just want to up your intensity), it’s about progressing each time you train on all your exercises…
Try something like:
Back Workout 1
Back Workout 2 (you can rotate these two workouts, that makes progressing on the individual exercises easier. That’ll also give your lower back a bit of a break in that you don’t deadlift or rack-pull all the time.)
Just a suggestion. Keep in mind that, while you can do 7 exercises per workout for the same muscle-group, that it’s virtually impossible to keep progressing that way (and increasing the weights used for reps is what makes you bigger) and totally murders your recovery…
#Edit: You could add in face-pulls at the end of your sessions as well, then you got 4 exercises each.
I was hoping that I would keep this routine for 4 weeks (which is when I change my regimen) with light weights and then shift to my regular 4 exercises per muscle group routine. My aim for this program was only to get a ‘feel’ of my lats before getting it back to normal. Does that seem okay?
I like a lot of the advice here for you to try.
BUT my take is:
Do lat pull and straight arm lat pull to learn how to pull to feel the lats. Focus on this for a short time to learn how to properly activate the lats.
Find the rep range where YOU gain and stick with it. If it is lower reps than increase your sets to increase the volume.
After learning to activate the lats do the following exercises:
a. Deads
b. Chin variation (incl pullup)
c. Single arm row
Do whatever progression it takes to get strong at these lifts.
Do pull downs and straight arm lat pulls and the such at the end supplement the above lifts if you feel you need to. If you do enough of the above lifts with the proper intensity you won’t want to do that much at the end.
6)You will not grow unless you eat!
Here is a good article cp wrote.
bill
I’m posting links to my pictures below for you guys to be able to see what I’m talking about.
