[quote]grettiron wrote:
Sure it’s FUBAR. But I’m not going to preface everything I say with some insincere bullshit like “I don’t condone this” or “it’s truly a tragedy” or “it’s so terrible, why would he do that?” [/quote]
So you back his actions then? (I mean you already stated as much but…)
This is irrelevant. The only justified killing is defending the life of another or yourself. Even then, we may be rationalizing, because we are okay with the killing of some, but not all. (Abortion and capital punishment come to mind. Many more examples throughout history.)
Anyway, point being, just because this man’s reason sparks and interest, and may have some foundation of truth, doesn’t give him the power to wipe away morals and start taking lives due to his, and only his judgement.
There is a reason the “jury of your peers” was put in place. There is a reason it is more than 1 or 2 people. Due process is in place for a very damn good reason. To throw out due process for the sake of emotional reaction to us not using it in the first place (not punishing the cops who did wrong) would be to lay down our claim to naural rights, it would be us, as free people, giving up what millions have died trying to protect.
Your posts show this. It basically means “we can do anything we want, and I can justify why”.
The other side is moral absolute, which I fear is somewhat beyond human comprehension at thsi point.
Orrrrr you could spill a lot of blood now and let someone with delusions of honor take up the cause later. There is currently a huge thread on T-Nation discussing the topic and it’s not buried in PWI. I’d say it’s an effective tactic but not exactly the embodiment of lawful good.
[/quote]
No it isn’t effective. It muddys the water.
Look at the Civil Rights movement, it is a great example of what true power is and can be.
Black Americans could have resorted to all out violence and civil disobediance (ie: the rich white kids in the 60’s) or they could have been peaceful and fought the hard road.
Turns out the rich white kids made generations hate America, and the brave Black Americans gave us something to be proud of in America, true progress and a step forward out of darkness.
If this dude took his passion and intelligence to every media outlet and just ran his mouth and published paper after paper, interview after interview, soapbox after soapbox, he would be a real hero. As it stands, he has ruined any chance for intelectuals, those in charge to take him serious.
His actions lend a lot of creedence to reports of him being nuts and good he was fired. I tend to not believe people who are okay with cold blooded murder of innocents.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
This is irrelevant. The only justified killing is defending the life of another or yourself. Even then, we may be rationalizing, because we are okay with the killing of some, but not all. (Abortion and capital punishment come to mind. Many more examples throughout history.)
Anyway, point being, just because this man’s reason sparks and interest, and may have some foundation of truth, doesn’t give him the power to wipe away morals and start taking lives due to his, and only his judgement.
There is a reason the “jury of your peers” was put in place. There is a reason it is more than 1 or 2 people. Due process is in place for a very damn good reason. To throw out due process for the sake of emotional reaction to us not using it in the first place (not punishing the cops who did wrong) would be to lay down our claim to naural rights, it would be us, as free people, giving up what millions have died trying to protect.[/quote]
Something tells me he’s not asking for the moral right to kill. He’s not looking for an institutionalized mechanism to legitimatize and validate his killing. Clearly he has set aside his morals because of his desire to punish the LAPD. Clearly the LAPD long since abandon their morals and continue to kill innocent people and kill people whose crimes were minor.
Which entity is worse? An institution that routinely, grievously, and without shame or remorse harms the people they claim to “protect,” circumventing “justice” and the “rule of law?” Or a rogue agent lashing out in rage and frustration? Both kill; neither has the moral high ground. I side with the rogue agent. At least he didn’t bust into someones house and kill them for daring to defend themselves.
And concerning moral relativity… I still don’t get it. My morals don’t change. I don’t try to excuse e.g. female genital mutilation by writing it off as a “cultural difference” if that’s illustrative of what you mean.
Sure but what about the thousands upon thousands of murderers, rapists and drug dealers the LAPD has put away to keep the residents of LA and the greater California area just that little bit more safe? There have been various documented heinous acts and examples of corruption committed by officers of the LAPD, as you have said and given exemplar cases of, but how much of a stretch is it to generalise the entire LAPD workforce?
I say pretty big stretch because what does an `institutionalised culture of violence’ even mean, how do we measure it? An independent and comprehensive set of investigations may create a foundation to some kind of metric. Yet , at the very essence of the matter you can’t ignore what a police force does and all the pressures and conventions that come with being a police officer.
I hate police corruption and violence but lets restore some objectivity here. Clearly the LAPD has issues otherwise there wouldn’t be so much public vitriol at them but they aren’t a terrorist organisation.
There’s these two seemingly mutually exclusive and conflicting ideologies represented here, analogous to MLK and Malcolm X. The latter is obviously controversial and probably universally agreed as unfavourable. Dorner killing dirty cops would have better a better manifestation of that ideology than killing two innocents and hence shouldn’t even be debatable on any grounds of rationality.
This is irrelevant. The only justified killing is defending the life of another or yourself. Even then, we may be rationalizing, because we are okay with the killing of some, but not all. (Abortion and capital punishment come to mind. Many more examples throughout history.)
Anyway, point being, just because this man’s reason sparks and interest, and may have some foundation of truth, doesn’t give him the power to wipe away morals and start taking lives due to his, and only his judgement.
There is a reason the “jury of your peers” was put in place. There is a reason it is more than 1 or 2 people. Due process is in place for a very damn good reason. To throw out due process for the sake of emotional reaction to us not using it in the first place (not punishing the cops who did wrong) would be to lay down our claim to naural rights, it would be us, as free people, giving up what millions have died trying to protect.
[/quote]
Beans, what if his “due process” was interfered with, as in a kangaroo court? his “jurors” were all cops, with one civilian, and that person has not been named, and we also don’t know how they are selected. Is it some guy they pulled off the street? The chiefs golfing buddy? Someone they roughed up a little prior to the hearing to make sure they knew what the decision was going to be?
Lets think about this for a second. If there was no credible evidence that she did kick him or did not kick him, then it’s only the word of his vs the word of hers. What happens if they believed him? do you think she would have been fired? She probably would have had to undergo anger management, and ride a desk for a while, but there is no way in hell she loses her job over that. On the other hand, they believe her, and he gets fired over it? There is still no proof that she did or did not kick him, yet they are willing to fire this guy over this? It’s so illogical, that the only thing I can believe is that he was railroaded.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Save any and all logical fallacies and strawman arguments, and I’ll say it one more time for the cheap seats - If you actively root for the murders of innocent people, you are one seriously fucked up individual, and trying to justify it in any way, shape or form just makes you look stupid, and evil to boot… [/quote]
What about the US bombings of many middle eastern coutries that killed thousands of innocent people? From what I’ve seen and read there were a lot of people rooting for those campaigns. Never seemed to bat an eyelash that women and children were dieing either. Or doesn’t that count?[/quote]
The real question is if you’re against these bombings, why are you rooting for Dorner?
Furthermore, if you’re not rooting for Dorner and just trying to get other people to start questioning the motives and intentions and results of bombings in the middle east, take that shit to PWI. This thread is about Dorner and how deranged he is. If you do think he’s a menace to society, you sure have a funny way of showing it.
And just so you know I’m not trying to skip out on your little debate, start the thread in PWI and I’ll happily contribute.
For this thread, sack up and either admit your rooting for a homicidal maniac and are thus mentally ill yourself or take your ulterior motives to PWI. [/quote]
Yeah, you’re right I lost what I was trying to get at, and it doesn’t make sense. I just erased another post because it was ridiculous.
No, I am not rooting for this guy. I am rooting for the a thorough and objective review of these organizations that are known to be corrupt. It’s time for people to start questioning authority more, and holding them accountable for their actions. This isn’t the first event to shine a negative light on the LAPD, or any other police force. But, maybe it’s the one that will get people to think a bit more? Probably not, but I can hope it might bring about a change. [/quote]
This I can get behind 100%. [/quote]
As far as I can tell, only one person in this thread has stated they were actively rooting for Dorner. I have said I don’t get why people are bashing him, and I certainly understand why a man can be driven to the breaking point and snap. I think it’s funny how anyone who even hints at not running to the rooftop to decry what dorner has done is labeled “sick” or Mentally “ill” yet if anyone brings up the US killing innocents, it gets ignored, or well ignored really.
“take it to PWI” bla bla bla, Dorner killed innocent people, and anyone who says that is terrible, needs to answer the question, why is it terrible for him to do it and it’s not terrible for our military to do it? I am not saying it’s not terrible, I am in fact also saying it is terrible, YET I also am saying we should not be accepting of innocent deaths in other countries at our hands.
Sky, you said you watched the video. Do you understand it? Do you understand that if our military sends a drone to a remote village in pakistan and bombs a house with a terrorist in it, if there are kids in that house and they die, YOU and I are culpable for that murder. It is done on our behalf. Either the killing of innocent people is acceptable or it is not. It cannoit depend on the reason, because no two people have the same values or sense of reasonings. One day our values could say anyone who doesn’t wear a blue shirt on tuesday deserves to be killed, and that is just not logical.
I’ll say it one last time, anyone who is going to say that any innocent casualties, collateral damage etc… if you are saying that is unnacceptable, then I need to also hear you state that our doing the same thing under the guise of military or police is the same level of unnacceptable. I don’t wish innocent people be killed under any circumstance. But he has reasons for doing what he is doing, and just like I’m not going to get upset if the nerd finally stands up for himself and snaps and punches the bully in the nose. I’m not going to get upset when the mugger picks the wrong woman in the alley and she pulls a gun and blasts him. I am not going to get upset when someone is oppressed and at least in their minds do what they feel is neccesary to fight the system to make things better for other people. Dorner I beleive is trying to change the system so that other people who deal with the Police are treated more justly and more fairly. And though I do not agree with his tactics, it does not erase the fact that his ultimate goal is good. It’s not much different than what your government sells you when they have to go kill people to make the world a better place.
V[/quote]
If you agree that it’s terrible and you’re not supporting Dorner (which at this point is up in the air considering your posts which seem to try and play both sides), here is a quick summary of what you’re saying and why it should be taken to PWI.
Me: Man, this guy is a nutjob. I hope he dies.
You: Yeah, I agree, he’s crazy! You know what else is crazy? The US killing innocent middle eastern kids! Why don’t I hear you speak out about that, huh?
We’re either in agreement that Dorner is crazy and should be stopped, in which case I’m not sure why you’re bringing in another crazy topic (middle eastern children deaths) which could just be discussed in its own thread. Or you’re disagreeing that Dorner is crazy and are supporting his actions in some way, even while being against the deaths of middle eastern children. It’s really bizarre.
No one here is advocating for the deaths of middle eastern children. If, for some reason, that is a topic you’d like to discuss, start a thread about it. It’s completely unrelated to this situation. [/quote]
You see, that is not quite true.
If you want to emote about your feelings, fine, but if its about the principles involved, this is the place to do it.
Please see my post above for the general structure of such a discussion. [/quote]
Yeah, this certainly seems like the place to debate all needless deaths that have occurred in the history of mankind.
Have fun with that, I’ll keep discussing the situation which this thread is about.
[/quote]
No, you are not responsible for the Gauls that died for the glory of Rome, but in a government for the people, through the people, by the people, they do the same thing he does in your name.
So, you will give up either the illusion of democracy, or the illusion that “collateral damage” is inexcusable.
I dont care.
Its your mind.
[/quote]
I’ve got my own thoughts, I don’t need you trying to fit my thoughts on any subject matter into your life theories.
[quote]grettiron wrote:
Humanity is tragedy. People are murdered every day for far less that what Dorner is killing for. Arguably the most complex structures in the universe destroyed for no discernible reason. I don’t see the crocodile tears being shed for that.
[/quote]
This is king of lulz. So other people are dying and it is fucked up, so this guy killing people is no longer fucked up. There are an almost infinite number of instances where needless deaths occur, that does not make this case any less fucked up or interesting given the background behind it all.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Fuck so much to answer to…
Me saying I don’t get why people are bashing him does not indicate my support for his killing innocents. My disbelief stems solely from the fact that I hear crickets about the killings of innocents on our countries behalf, and that is children, and it’s in the hundreds, or possibly thousands. Yet a few adults get killed by a guy who snapped and people act like he’s the devil fucking incarnate. [/quote]
Again, start a thread about them and see what response you get. This thread isn’t even about that, so your hearing of crickets surrounding those matters is not surprising.
If you stop looking at death as merely a statistical game and actually think that these people have friends, family and loved ones, it’s a lot harder to not feel horrible about what has happened. I know people die every day. I don’t like hearing about any of them. This case is particularly interesting given the background.
[quote]Can we please stop acting like we personally knew these people, pull our fucking panties out of our collective vagina’s and discuss the crux of these issues. Nobody is debating the fact that it is wrong for a person to go on a killing spree, murdering innocent people. I do however expect people to fight oppression. I don’t know all the details, this dorner cat could be one big liberal blame everybody else pussy, and if that were true, and god may only know, then what he is doing is wrong and he will be judged, not by some internet pussies, but by the only motherfucker who really matters.
Skynet, Really? A terrorists child who dies is the fault of the terrorist, yet the corrupt arbiter (if he is in fact corrupt) has no culpability in his daughters death? That is some logic hocus pocus I doubt harry houdini could pull off and seem credible. What about the kid who lives next door to the terrorist? Should his parents have picked a less radical neighbor to live next to? What about the man who was shot and killed recently because the police raided the wrong house? Obviously it was they guys own fault for living next door to a drug dealer and also choosing to live in a country where the cops are fucking incompetent (some cops, I’m being dramatic here).
GR, see a little earlier in this same post, I actually do understand why people are bashing him. I made the statement to get this topic started down the path I wanted it to take, and that was to point out the hypocrisy of people.[/quote]
And THIS is what I was getting at! 2 things wrong with this statement.
1 - everyone in the history of mankind has overlapping layers of hypocrisy in their belief systems. Everyone in the history of mankind has justifications for everything. “Oh what tangled webs we weave.” You pointing this out is completely irrelevant because everyone has them. So what is your point?
2 - It’s almost like it doesn’t even matter what this thread was about, you were going to take it where you wanted to take it. Something has been on your mind lately (the deaths of middle eastern children) and you were going to talk about it in any thread you wanted. And this just so happens to be that thread. This is my point. If you want to talk about this, start a thread about it. This thread is specifically about Dorner and how crazy the whole situation is.
Again, I’ve got my own feelings on this as well, feel free to start a thread about it.
The punishment does not fit the crime. It’s like cutting off someone’s hands for stealing something when being caned would work just as well. That’s a matter of opinion, and you’re entitled to yours, but if you condone the killing of everyone who has wronged someone else, we’d all be dead. I don’t disagree that taking matters into his own hands is wrong, but collecting evidence and taking down the LAPD in the courts and in the court of public opinion is really where he could have made a difference.
It’s a tough situation when someone has done a lot of good for the world but gets caught doing the wrong thing, especially when the wrong thing is so vile it can’t be comprehended. But I’ll say that saving someone’s life doesn’t give you a pass if you decide to kill someone later.
[quote]If I left anyone else out who thought they warranted a response, either I don’t know you well enough to give a shit and or your post was too insignificant for me to bother with. Try better and I will address what you have to say.
Aside from my initial rant calling you all a bunch of pussies and vagina’s, I do say it all out of love. I want only for the advancement of my fellow man. I want us all to be better tomorrow than we were today and I hope my communications convey that. If what I say is uncomfortable, stop for a minute before you respond and ask yourself, is he saying this to get a response, or is he saying this to challenge me to think about an uncomfortable thought so that I may know myself better.
[quote]SkyNett wrote:
Save any and all logical fallacies and strawman arguments, and I’ll say it one more time for the cheap seats - If you actively root for the murders of innocent people, you are one seriously fucked up individual, and trying to justify it in any way, shape or form just makes you look stupid, and evil to boot… [/quote]
What about the US bombings of many middle eastern coutries that killed thousands of innocent people? From what I’ve seen and read there were a lot of people rooting for those campaigns. Never seemed to bat an eyelash that women and children were dieing either. Or doesn’t that count?[/quote]
The real question is if you’re against these bombings, why are you rooting for Dorner?
Furthermore, if you’re not rooting for Dorner and just trying to get other people to start questioning the motives and intentions and results of bombings in the middle east, take that shit to PWI. This thread is about Dorner and how deranged he is. If you do think he’s a menace to society, you sure have a funny way of showing it.
And just so you know I’m not trying to skip out on your little debate, start the thread in PWI and I’ll happily contribute.
For this thread, sack up and either admit your rooting for a homicidal maniac and are thus mentally ill yourself or take your ulterior motives to PWI. [/quote]
Yeah, you’re right I lost what I was trying to get at, and it doesn’t make sense. I just erased another post because it was ridiculous.
No, I am not rooting for this guy. I am rooting for the a thorough and objective review of these organizations that are known to be corrupt. It’s time for people to start questioning authority more, and holding them accountable for their actions. This isn’t the first event to shine a negative light on the LAPD, or any other police force. But, maybe it’s the one that will get people to think a bit more? Probably not, but I can hope it might bring about a change. [/quote]
This I can get behind 100%. [/quote]
As far as I can tell, only one person in this thread has stated they were actively rooting for Dorner. I have said I don’t get why people are bashing him, and I certainly understand why a man can be driven to the breaking point and snap. I think it’s funny how anyone who even hints at not running to the rooftop to decry what dorner has done is labeled “sick” or Mentally “ill” yet if anyone brings up the US killing innocents, it gets ignored, or well ignored really.
“take it to PWI” bla bla bla, Dorner killed innocent people, and anyone who says that is terrible, needs to answer the question, why is it terrible for him to do it and it’s not terrible for our military to do it? I am not saying it’s not terrible, I am in fact also saying it is terrible, YET I also am saying we should not be accepting of innocent deaths in other countries at our hands.
Sky, you said you watched the video. Do you understand it? Do you understand that if our military sends a drone to a remote village in pakistan and bombs a house with a terrorist in it, if there are kids in that house and they die, YOU and I are culpable for that murder. It is done on our behalf. Either the killing of innocent people is acceptable or it is not. It cannoit depend on the reason, because no two people have the same values or sense of reasonings. One day our values could say anyone who doesn’t wear a blue shirt on tuesday deserves to be killed, and that is just not logical.
I’ll say it one last time, anyone who is going to say that any innocent casualties, collateral damage etc… if you are saying that is unnacceptable, then I need to also hear you state that our doing the same thing under the guise of military or police is the same level of unnacceptable. I don’t wish innocent people be killed under any circumstance. But he has reasons for doing what he is doing, and just like I’m not going to get upset if the nerd finally stands up for himself and snaps and punches the bully in the nose. I’m not going to get upset when the mugger picks the wrong woman in the alley and she pulls a gun and blasts him. I am not going to get upset when someone is oppressed and at least in their minds do what they feel is neccesary to fight the system to make things better for other people. Dorner I beleive is trying to change the system so that other people who deal with the Police are treated more justly and more fairly. And though I do not agree with his tactics, it does not erase the fact that his ultimate goal is good. It’s not much different than what your government sells you when they have to go kill people to make the world a better place.
V[/quote]
If you agree that it’s terrible and you’re not supporting Dorner (which at this point is up in the air considering your posts which seem to try and play both sides), here is a quick summary of what you’re saying and why it should be taken to PWI.
Me: Man, this guy is a nutjob. I hope he dies.
You: Yeah, I agree, he’s crazy! You know what else is crazy? The US killing innocent middle eastern kids! Why don’t I hear you speak out about that, huh?
We’re either in agreement that Dorner is crazy and should be stopped, in which case I’m not sure why you’re bringing in another crazy topic (middle eastern children deaths) which could just be discussed in its own thread. Or you’re disagreeing that Dorner is crazy and are supporting his actions in some way, even while being against the deaths of middle eastern children. It’s really bizarre.
No one here is advocating for the deaths of middle eastern children. If, for some reason, that is a topic you’d like to discuss, start a thread about it. It’s completely unrelated to this situation. [/quote]
You see, that is not quite true.
If you want to emote about your feelings, fine, but if its about the principles involved, this is the place to do it.
Please see my post above for the general structure of such a discussion. [/quote]
Yeah, this certainly seems like the place to debate all needless deaths that have occurred in the history of mankind.
Have fun with that, I’ll keep discussing the situation which this thread is about.
[/quote]
No, you are not responsible for the Gauls that died for the glory of Rome, but in a government for the people, through the people, by the people, they do the same thing he does in your name.
So, you will give up either the illusion of democracy, or the illusion that “collateral damage” is inexcusable.
I dont care.
Its your mind.
[/quote]
I’ve got my own thoughts, I don’t need you trying to fit my thoughts on any subject matter into your life theories.
[quote]grettiron wrote:
Humanity is tragedy. People are murdered every day for far less that what Dorner is killing for. Arguably the most complex structures in the universe destroyed for no discernible reason. I don’t see the crocodile tears being shed for that.
[/quote]
This is king of lulz. So other people are dying and it is fucked up, so this guy killing people is no longer fucked up. There are an almost infinite number of instances where needless deaths occur, that does not make this case any less fucked up or interesting given the background behind it all.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Fuck so much to answer to…
Me saying I don’t get why people are bashing him does not indicate my support for his killing innocents. My disbelief stems solely from the fact that I hear crickets about the killings of innocents on our countries behalf, and that is children, and it’s in the hundreds, or possibly thousands. Yet a few adults get killed by a guy who snapped and people act like he’s the devil fucking incarnate. [/quote]
Again, start a thread about them and see what response you get. This thread isn’t even about that, so your hearing of crickets surrounding those matters is not surprising.
If you stop looking at death as merely a statistical game and actually think that these people have friends, family and loved ones, it’s a lot harder to not feel horrible about what has happened. I know people die every day. I don’t like hearing about any of them. This case is particularly interesting given the background.
[quote]Can we please stop acting like we personally knew these people, pull our fucking panties out of our collective vagina’s and discuss the crux of these issues. Nobody is debating the fact that it is wrong for a person to go on a killing spree, murdering innocent people. I do however expect people to fight oppression. I don’t know all the details, this dorner cat could be one big liberal blame everybody else pussy, and if that were true, and god may only know, then what he is doing is wrong and he will be judged, not by some internet pussies, but by the only motherfucker who really matters.
Skynet, Really? A terrorists child who dies is the fault of the terrorist, yet the corrupt arbiter (if he is in fact corrupt) has no culpability in his daughters death? That is some logic hocus pocus I doubt harry houdini could pull off and seem credible. What about the kid who lives next door to the terrorist? Should his parents have picked a less radical neighbor to live next to? What about the man who was shot and killed recently because the police raided the wrong house? Obviously it was they guys own fault for living next door to a drug dealer and also choosing to live in a country where the cops are fucking incompetent (some cops, I’m being dramatic here).
GR, see a little earlier in this same post, I actually do understand why people are bashing him. I made the statement to get this topic started down the path I wanted it to take, and that was to point out the hypocrisy of people.[/quote]
And THIS is what I was getting at! 2 things wrong with this statement.
1 - everyone in the history of mankind has overlapping layers of hypocrisy in their belief systems. Everyone in the history of mankind has justifications for everything. “Oh what tangled webs we weave.” You pointing this out is completely irrelevant because everyone has them. So what is your point?
2 - It’s almost like it doesn’t even matter what this thread was about, you were going to take it where you wanted to take it. Something has been on your mind lately (the deaths of middle eastern children) and you were going to talk about it in any thread you wanted. And this just so happens to be that thread. This is my point. If you want to talk about this, start a thread about it. This thread is specifically about Dorner and how crazy the whole situation is.
Again, I’ve got my own feelings on this as well, feel free to start a thread about it.
The punishment does not fit the crime. It’s like cutting off someone’s hands for stealing something when being caned would work just as well. That’s a matter of opinion, and you’re entitled to yours, but if you condone the killing of everyone who has wronged someone else, we’d all be dead. I don’t disagree that taking matters into his own hands is wrong, but collecting evidence and taking down the LAPD in the courts and in the court of public opinion is really where he could have made a difference.
It’s a tough situation when someone has done a lot of good for the world but gets caught doing the wrong thing, especially when the wrong thing is so vile it can’t be comprehended. But I’ll say that saving someone’s life doesn’t give you a pass if you decide to kill someone later.
[quote]If I left anyone else out who thought they warranted a response, either I don’t know you well enough to give a shit and or your post was too insignificant for me to bother with. Try better and I will address what you have to say.
Aside from my initial rant calling you all a bunch of pussies and vagina’s, I do say it all out of love. I want only for the advancement of my fellow man. I want us all to be better tomorrow than we were today and I hope my communications convey that. If what I say is uncomfortable, stop for a minute before you respond and ask yourself, is he saying this to get a response, or is he saying this to challenge me to think about an uncomfortable thought so that I may know myself better.
V[/quote][/quote]
I’m at work so can’t respond in full, but I will just say that this thread was already going here. The questions were arising about how some people were rooting for him and others though anyone who rooted for him belonged in a nut house. I was trying to point out, that that sentiment, that people who were rooting for hiim belonged in a nut house, could just as easily be applied to those people who cheer over a drone stirke. That is why it is relevant, not because I wanted to talk about drone strikes killin ginnocents. Don’t call me crazy and say I should be put in a loony bin, when you (not you personally) are just as crazy, and just because your crazy is wrapped in the american flag, somehow makes it less crazy.
Also, I feel like this is much more interesting to talk about than everyone agreeing with eachother that this guy is a peice of shit.
Irrelevant. You are presenting a false dichotomy. It doesn’t matter what drove him to the point of behaving wrongly, he is acting a fool and needs to stop.
What you are doing is rationalizing bad behavior because you feel it is just. Whether or not you think it is just is moot, unless you end up on this guy’s jury. (In whihc case you will certianly be in the minority.)
Killing people in responce to acts is not appropriate in this situation.
Throwing away your rights to due process, which is what you are doing, isn’t the way to solve the problem of the LAPD being shitty. And yes, by standing on your soapbox and talking about how the LAPD deserves this, and you’re cool with Donner, you are saying, “please government, stop protecting the right of due process of your citizens, we don’t really need it because a couple of us are really bad people.”
That ^ is flat out stupid man. Think. Stop “feeling” your way through this, and actually think about what is happening and what you are calling for. You are calling for people’s rights to not be protected. What are you going to think if people start saying it about you? Think.
You don’t have to side with either. That is the point. You can side with neither, like myself and others have, over and over in this thread.
Think about what you just typed here, after spending how many posts justifiying murder and removal of rights from others, and why you are justifying those actions. Let me know when the light clicks on. It will, you are bright.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
It’s so illogical, that the only thing I can believe is that he was railroaded. [/quote]
Not one single thing you wrote, in any way, justifies murder.
I assume you aren’t claiming that it does, but if you aren’t then it is irrelevant as well.
Because this dude is killing people, and has no right to do so. End of story.
On top of the fact: the man went on a killing spree because he was “railroaded”. Killing spree. Murder. The fact his idea of a good plan was murder, leads me to believe he might be slightly off his rocker and shoudl have been fired.
His idea of acceptable behavior in society is kill people that “wronged” him. That is not the type of man that I tend to believe when two stories conflict… Not sure WTF leads others to trust the word of someone who is insane.
[quote]You’re good at math, this doesn’t add up.
V
[/quote]
Agree, and I’ve been commenting on it for a few posts now.
[quote]grettiron wrote:
An institution that routinely, grievously, and without shame or remorse harms the people they claim to “protect,” circumventing “justice” and the “rule of law?” Or a rogue agent lashing out in rage and frustration? Both kill; neither has the moral high ground. I side with the rogue agent. At least he didn’t bust into someones house and kill them for daring to defend themselves.[/quote]
You’re condemning the individuals of an entire institution for the acts of some individuals within that institution. That doesn’t make any sense. If it did, you’d be paying the price for every mistake your entire family ever made.
This is all besides the fact that Dorner has harmed people with nothing more than a loose association with this institution, and the 80 year old guy who apparently didn’t have any association with this institution.
I see two arguments being made here among many of you.
How things should be versus how things really are, and I mean this in the context of here in Los Angeles.
Should cops be moral, ethical, upstanding, etc ? Of course, not doubt. But that is not what we have here. And it has been this way (fucked up) for DECADES. From the Watts riot of 1965, to the Rodney King beating, to the OJ trial, to the MacArthur Park melee, to the Los Angeles Archdioses child molestations, and the Los Angeles Unified School District teacher molestations. All of the above went unpunished, ALL OF IT.
There is a culture here, where some are both seen and treated above the law. This is a city and state where it truly is more important who you know compared to what you know. For many years, we have had people walk from prosecution when their crimes were blatant and obvious.
What you are seeing now, is the threshold being toppled. That is why many people here are actually cheering for Dorner. When looking at whom to side with (either Dorner or LAPD), the people side with Dorner because LAPD has disturbed, harassed, discriminated, and severely accosted the citizens for so long, this is just a piece of revenge for everyone to take a part in.
The people would rather see LAPD get what’s coming to them, if it means Dorner has to wreak some havoc.
The people would rather see LAPD get what’s coming to them, if it means Dorner has to wreak some havoc.[/quote]
Great, then all hope is lost.
Because backing either one on thsi issue lends credence to the other. As in, if you support Dorner, then by default you support the actions of the LAPD because that is what “eye for an eye” is.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I see two arguments being made here among many of you.
How things should be versus how things really are, and I mean this in the context of here in Los Angeles.
Should cops be moral, ethical, upstanding, etc ? Of course, not doubt. But that is not what we have here. And it has been this way (fucked up) for DECADES. From the Watts riot of 1965, to the Rodney King beating, to the OJ trial, to the MacArthur Park melee, to the Los Angeles Archdioses child molestations, and the Los Angeles Unified School District teacher molestations. All of the above went unpunished, ALL OF IT.
There is a culture here, where some are both seen and treated above the law. This is a city and state where it truly is more important who you know compared to what you know. For many years, we have had people walk from prosecution when their crimes were blatant and obvious.
What you are seeing now, is the threshold being toppled. That is why many people here are actually cheering for Dorner. When looking at whom to side with (either Dorner or LAPD), the people side with Dorner because LAPD has disturbed, harassed, discriminated, and severely accosted the citizens for so long, this is just a piece of revenge for everyone to take a part in.
The people would rather see LAPD get what’s coming to them, if it means Dorner has to wreak some havoc.[/quote]
First (and this is minor) but I thought some of the officers from the Rodney King beating got prison time. Am I wrong about that or does that not constitute a punishment?
Second, again you’re condemning the faceless LAPD institution which is easy to do after so many instances of corruption. But this guy is killing actual people, who may or may not be part of that corruption.
Third, even if they are part of that corruption, again, does the punishment fit the crime? Does violating the civil rights of citizens warrant a bullet to the head? Does violating the civil rights or citizens violate a bullet to your daughters head?
There is seriously no reason to cheer this guy on. I’ve written this before, but I’m more inclined to believe most of what was in his manifesto. I’ll be rooting for the resignation of the LAPD commissioner just as much as anyone else. None of that changes the fact that this guy is a psycho and needs to be put down.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I see two arguments being made here among many of you.
How things should be versus how things really are, and I mean this in the context of here in Los Angeles.
Should cops be moral, ethical, upstanding, etc ? Of course, not doubt. But that is not what we have here. And it has been this way (fucked up) for DECADES. From the Watts riot of 1965, to the Rodney King beating, to the OJ trial, to the MacArthur Park melee, to the Los Angeles Archdioses child molestations, and the Los Angeles Unified School District teacher molestations. All of the above went unpunished, ALL OF IT.
There is a culture here, where some are both seen and treated above the law. This is a city and state where it truly is more important who you know compared to what you know. For many years, we have had people walk from prosecution when their crimes were blatant and obvious.
What you are seeing now, is the threshold being toppled. That is why many people here are actually cheering for Dorner. When looking at whom to side with (either Dorner or LAPD), the people side with Dorner because LAPD has disturbed, harassed, discriminated, and severely accosted the citizens for so long, this is just a piece of revenge for everyone to take a part in.
The people would rather see LAPD get what’s coming to them, if it means Dorner has to wreak some havoc.[/quote]
First (and this is minor) but I thought some of the officers from the Rodney King beating got prison time. Am I wrong about that or does that not constitute a punishment?
Second, again you’re condemning the faceless LAPD institution which is easy to do after so many instances of corruption. But this guy is killing actual people, who may or may not be part of that corruption.
Third, even if they are part of that corruption, again, does the punishment fit the crime? Does violating the civil rights of citizens warrant a bullet to the head? Does violating the civil rights or citizens violate a bullet to your daughters head?
There is seriously no reason to cheer this guy on. I’ve written this before, but I’m more inclined to believe most of what was in his manifesto. I’ll be rooting for the resignation of the LAPD commissioner just as much as anyone else. None of that changes the fact that this guy is a psycho and needs to be put down.
[/quote]
At first, all 4 cops were acquitted, which is what caused the LA riots. Then the Feds stepped in, and charged 2 of the cops and acquitted the other 2.
To your second point, the face of LAPD are the mayor and the chief. Both are imbeciles and bullshitters. Two classless empty suits who are bought off by Unions. The crimes committed by LAPD are usually unseen by the public, where no cameras are present. Keep in mind, the person who filmed the Rodney King beating was across the street, where cops had no idea they were being filmed. Orange County cops beat and killed a homeless mentally unstable man to death, again on camera unbeknown to cops. If you lived here, you would know what I mean.
Does the punishment fit the crime ? I don’t feel that deadly force should be used unless your life is in mortal danger (just my opinion). Many people have been shot and killed who were found to be unarmed, and cops would use the same old excuse (they were thought to be reaching for something in their pocket/belt/waistband. No, I don’t feel someone’s daughter should be killed to prove a point, but that is the measure of this man’s anger and his resolve.
You are not going to see a resignation by anyone, not Cardinal Roger Mahony who admitted to covering up the molestation of hundreds (maybe thousands) of boys by the church, not the commissioner, not the mayor, not the chief. Nothing will happen, and that is why people are cheering this on.
This entire state is filled with corruption, this anger from the people is not just from LAPD, but the city and state which is beyond saving. Taxes being passed in the middle of the night with no one’s consent, laws being passed or ignored so specific groups can prosper.
The people here saw this city and state, go down the drain in a period of less than 5 years, don’t think that hasn’t pissed many people off.
Let’s not pretend King wasn’t acting like an asshole here. He didn’t deserve the asswhooping he got, but he didn’t help his own cause by not acting like a d-bag. And before someone comes in and cries “racists” about it, I was under the impression there were other black americans in the car that didn’t get their ass whooped.
And OJ was found not guilty… How is that a stain on the LAPD?
[quote]Vegita wrote:
It’s so illogical, that the only thing I can believe is that he was railroaded. [/quote]
Not one single thing you wrote, in any way, justifies murder.
I assume you aren’t claiming that it does, but if you aren’t then it is irrelevant as well.
Because this dude is killing people, and has no right to do so. End of story.
On top of the fact: the man went on a killing spree because he was “railroaded”. Killing spree. Murder. The fact his idea of a good plan was murder, leads me to believe he might be slightly off his rocker and shoudl have been fired.
His idea of acceptable behavior in society is kill people that “wronged” him. That is not the type of man that I tend to believe when two stories conflict… Not sure WTF leads others to trust the word of someone who is insane.
[quote]You’re good at math, this doesn’t add up.
V
[/quote]
Agree, and I’ve been commenting on it for a few posts now. [/quote]
See I took his manifesto as his firing was the straw that broke the camels back, that he isn’t going on a killing spree because he was fired. He is combatting a corrupt system to force change. Is one rape equal to one murder? Is five rapes equal to one murder? Is 50 rapes equal to one murder? At some point the ansewr is yes, the murder is wrong, but the alternative is worse. So for example, and yes this is an extreme, but if someone had killed hitler as he rose to power and started showing signs of his plans, that would have ultimately been a good thing.
So if his actions of so far killing what 3 or 4 people? End up reducing the instances of hundreds of thousands of innocent people being harrassed, unfairly arrested, beaten, possibly killed in error. What I am saying is there is a point in which a greater amount of good can come from an act that in a vaccum is ultimatley evil, or unnaceptable. His actions do not take place in a Vaccuum, and I am sure the LAPD after this incident will be taking a long hard look at their public image and finding ways to improve that, at least I hope so. Hopefully it is by training it’s people better and reducing the amount of corruption within it’s department. Hopefully the individual officers realize that thier job is one of the most serious jobs any human can have, and it’s not OK to take out their bigotry, their personal frustrations, on the people they swore to serve. I’m sure many don’t, but there are a lot who do, and those people need to change, or be gotten rid of, they are unfit to serve in such an important position. The system is broken right now, because these people are not identified, and even worse, it appears they may have protection.
Guys, please keep in mind, I am not taking sides, I don’t know who or what is true within this clusterfuck of a mess. I don’t think innocent people should be killed by any means, Dorner is a psycho, no question about it.
About Rodney King.
The thing that set people off were, that all 4 cops who beat him were originally acquitted. 4 White cops who beat a black man into near death, who had the trial moved to a very white suburb called Simi Valley. It is so white, this is where the Reagan Library is. This is what set off the LA riots.
The Feds stepped in and intervened, and found 2 of the 4 guilty, and those 2 went to prison.
This is also where and why the OJ verdict came from. This was the people’s way of saying “fuck you” to cops and “the justice system”, was to let a pretty guilty looking guy walk free.
Again, I am not taking sides, just telling you what the local sentiment is here in Los Angeles.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
At first, all 4 cops were acquitted, which is what caused the LA riots. Then the Feds stepped in, and charged 2 of the cops and acquitted the other 2.
To your second point, the face of LAPD are the mayor and the chief. Both are imbeciles and bullshitters. Two classless empty suits who are bought off by Unions. The crimes committed by LAPD are usually unseen by the public, where no cameras are present. Keep in mind, the person who filmed the Rodney King beating was across the street, where cops had no idea they were being filmed. Orange County cops beat and killed a homeless mentally unstable man to death, again on camera unbeknown to cops. If you lived here, you would know what I mean.
Does the punishment fit the crime ? I don’t feel that deadly force should be used unless your life is in mortal danger (just my opinion). Many people have been shot and killed who were found to be unarmed, and cops would use the same old excuse (they were thought to be reaching for something in their pocket/belt/waistband. No, I don’t feel someone’s daughter should be killed to prove a point, but that is the measure of this man’s anger and his resolve.
You are not going to see a resignation by anyone, not Cardinal Roger Mahony who admitted to covering up the molestation of hundreds (maybe thousands) of boys by the church, not the commissioner, not the mayor, not the chief. Nothing will happen, and that is why people are cheering this on.
This entire state is filled with corruption, this anger from the people is not just from LAPD, but the city and state which is beyond saving. Taxes being passed in the middle of the night with no one’s consent, laws being passed or ignored so specific groups can prosper.
The people here saw this city and state, go down the drain in a period of less than 5 years, don’t think that hasn’t pissed many people off. [/quote]
I agree with this post. Corruption in the LAPD has been rampant since at least the 1940s if not before. There’s a reason why people here are so anti-cop and it’s not because they are just anti-cop. It’s because the LAPD goes into neighborhoods and just wreak havoc without helping people out. Why is that the CHP can drive around garnering a lot of respect where the cops get none? It’s because the LAPD doesn’t show anyone else any respect. There’s a reason why “Fuck the Police” was written here and it’s because our communities are helpless against this force. And this force is supposed to protect those communities.
Does it give the guy the right to go out killing cops? Of course not. But we should not act all surprised when someone does it.