Landis Tests Positive

Off Topic
101

This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.

102

[quote]CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.[/quote]

How do you explain the fact that Landis, who has been a professional for more than 5 years, who’s been tested countless times during this time, suddenly be positive as a result of his “natural testosterone levels” ? Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17! I’m sorry, but in my eyes he is guilty until proven innocent. BTW his press conference earlier today did little to convince me of his innocence either.

103

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.

How do you explain the fact that Landis, who has been a professional for more than 5 years, who’s been tested countless times during this time, suddenly be positive as a result of his “natural testosterone levels” ? Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17! I’m sorry, but in my eyes he is guilty until proven innocent. BTW his press conference earlier today did little to convince me of his innocence either.[/quote]

The mystery is the low epitestosterone. What are the T levels in the previous samples? Are they the same? The epitestosterone is lower? That’s what I’m getting from all I’ve heard. I wish some knowledgable people with a background could way in on what could cause such a drop in epitestosterone without an accompanied increase in testosterone. I’d like to see Tim or Cy weigh in. No one here seems to understand the physiological asepects enough to comment knowledgably. I wish I did.

104

Yeah I agree with you there and I have to admit initially I was leaning towards suspiscion of guilt as soon as I read it but the more and more info becomes available, the more crazy this seems. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and hopefully it will be dealt with in time for the next Tour!!

[quote]CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.[/quote]

105

Good point. Man, this is a really an interesting argument here.

That press conference was a joke. He was smurking for a while there which kinda put me off.

Now he is a completely different person than me but if I was sitting there, I would not just read a prepared statement from a piece of paper. You would see some emotion and fire in my eyes if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was innocent.

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.

How do you explain the fact that Landis, who has been a professional for more than 5 years, who’s been tested countless times during this time, suddenly be positive as a result of his “natural testosterone levels” ? Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17! I’m sorry, but in my eyes he is guilty until proven innocent. BTW his press conference earlier today did little to convince me of his innocence either.[/quote]

106

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17![/quote]

One, how do you know they haven’t fluctuated? Have you seen every one of his test results? I sure haven’t. It’s very possible they have fluctuated and we just haven’t heard about it.

If that’s the case, what you’re saying would be akin to saying that a guy who has been racing at a 49% hematocrit level (the legal cutoff is 50%) and then one day suddenly comes in at 50 or 51% must be blood doping. This is pure conjecture, obviously, but surely you see my point.

Two, I’m not saying Landis has never doped. What I am saying is that the substance they’re trying to finger him for in this case, testosterone, makes no sense when it comes to professional cycling. What benefit would he have received from doing test for one stage?

107

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Columnist Mike Celizic isn’t surprised that Tour de France champion failed a drug test, only that it took so long for him to get caught.

I just love the Tour too much to agree with this…but he makes some valid points. [/quote]

Wow this guy who wrote this just doesn’t understand some things. Plus the stupid comment at the end saying its a cheaters sport really gets to me.

“We will pay large amounts of money to watch people with bodies not found in nature do things that we?d always considered to be impossible. Then, if they don?t test positive for anything, we allow ourselves to believe that they did it honestly.”

I really like this comment.

108

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
JACKED71 wrote:
CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.

How do you explain the fact that Landis, who has been a professional for more than 5 years, who’s been tested countless times during this time, suddenly be positive as a result of his “natural testosterone levels” ? Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17! I’m sorry, but in my eyes he is guilty until proven innocent. BTW his press conference earlier today did little to convince me of his innocence either.

The mystery is the low epitestosterone. What are the T levels in the previous samples? Are they the same? The epitestosterone is lower? That’s what I’m getting from all I’ve heard. I wish some knowledgable people with a background could way in on what could cause such a drop in epitestosterone without an accompanied increase in testosterone. I’d like to see Tim or Cy weigh in. No one here seems to understand the physiological asepects enough to comment knowledgably. I wish I did.
[/quote]

This gets to the issue. The rumours were dealing with are that his test was in the normal range and yet his T:E ratio was 11. The context in terms of the other samples is key here. When they say his test was “normal” I take that to mean he didn’t have levels beyond the healthy normal male range. He could still have had a reading that was “high-normal” for a typical healthy male. Two weeks into a stage race and the day after a collapse though a “high-normal” or even an average-normal level would be quite suspicious. His levels in the other tests are critical for context here.

I’m just speculating here, but some inference might be drawn from his RBC data and hematocrit. The response is delayed but if the ages of the RBCs have anomolous characteristics (an unusual concetration in certain age category) it might be useful if my understanding of their blood doping tests is right.

109

[quote]etaco wrote:

This gets to the issue. The rumours were dealing with are that his test was in the normal range and yet his T:E ratio was 11. The context in terms of the other samples is key here. When they say his test was “normal” I take that to mean he didn’t have levels beyond the healthy normal male range. He could still have had a reading that was “high-normal” for a typical healthy male. Two weeks into a stage race and the day after a collapse though a “high-normal” or even an average-normal level would be quite suspicious. His levels in the other tests are critical for context here.

I’m just speculating here, but some inference might be drawn from his RBC data and hematocrit. The response is delayed but if the ages of the RBCs have anomolous characteristics (an unusual concetration in certain age category) it might be useful if my understanding of their blood doping tests is right.[/quote]

If he shot up testosterone, someone should test him right now, because he’d be off the charts with his levels.

We also don’t have anything to compare this to. There could be guys with other high normal t scores too… so you have to take his testing in context because if you don’t, it’s rediculous to draw a line in sand.

110

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:
It’s funny how almost 90% of the pro peleton seem to suffer from asmtha, and use the " my doctor prescribed cortisone for my condition" bit all the time. Pretty sad to see these athletes justify their habitual drug use and use their " so called medical conditions" as an excuse. [/quote]

I’m no cycling fan, but this is one of the main things that came to mind while reading this thread. I don’t know anyone that has a medical condition that requires regular injections, so it’s surprising to me to hear that these guys all have something. That said, I understand if Lance was getting test injections to bring him to a normal level – he did have testicular cancer, after all.

111

Well, it is not looking good for pretty boy Floyd. According to a source, some of the test found in the samples was synthetic, as in not naturally ocurring in the body.

112

Could it be possible he had high levels from a blood transfusion the night before? Meaning that, the blood he received was from when he was on some test pre-tour?

Either way, it’d still be viewed as cheating I guess. Does not look good at all.

I know in some biking forums, people are trying to claim that lab is partial and unfair with its french alliances. Personally, I’m pretty sure, from what I’ve heard in the news and his recent silence, that he’s guilty.

113

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Well, it is not looking good for pretty boy Floyd. According to a source, some of the test found in the samples was synthetic, as in not naturally ocurring in the body.

Yeah. I can’t imagine he’s innocent anymore. As far as I know, the efficacy of this second method is not nearly as questionable as the test-eptiest ratio. The only thing I can think of where he’d be innocent is a mass conspiracy and tampering or mistreatment on the part of the labs. Which I doubt.

114

[quote]orion wrote:
rrjc5488 wrote:
Well, I might be the new Anthony Roberts around here… or I might be the new (renewed) laughingstock of T-Nation…

But if they’re saying he got tested for a high ratio of test to epitest… why wouldnt they just inject test AND epitest to raise test levels while keeping the ratio legal?

you mean like the Chinese female swimmers did since the late 80`s?
[/quote]

very good point with the chinese

115

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Good point. Man, this is a really an interesting argument here.

That press conference was a joke. He was smurking for a while there which kinda put me off.

Now he is a completely different person than me but if I was sitting there, I would not just read a prepared statement from a piece of paper. You would see some emotion and fire in my eyes if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt I was innocent.

JACKED71 wrote:
CC wrote:
This shit stinks worse and worse the more I hear about it. What can they attribute his failed test to if his T levels are normal and his Epi-T is low? Removing Epi-T from his body?!

At first I simply felt bad for the guy, now it’s just getting ridiculous. And as others have said, what could he possibly have to benefit from doing any kind of test injection for one stage? From a cycling strategy POV it makes absolutely no logical sense, whatsoever. Yet, all the non-cycling fan has to hear is the word “Testosterone” and it’s “Yep, he cheated”.

I know there’s so many shades of gray and a lot of suspicion because cycling has been synonomous with cheating for years, but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is getting really stupid.

How do you explain the fact that Landis, who has been a professional for more than 5 years, who’s been tested countless times during this time, suddenly be positive as a result of his “natural testosterone levels” ? Surely, if this was the case his fluctuating test levels would have been detected in tests earlier in his career or some of the other races he won this year, yet mysteriously they just happen to fluctuate after stage 17! I’m sorry, but in my eyes he is guilty until proven innocent. BTW his press conference earlier today did little to convince me of his innocence either.

[/quote]

Good statment AA. I agree 100%. You would act differently and would not reyl on a piece of paper that was written 2 days before. We had a very famous case in Germany about a Soccer Coach - Christoph Daum, he was suppose to become the National Coach, anyway he got caught. It was a big media event, when he gave his press-conference he was relaxed like motherf… anyway he wa sitting there and was calm and acctually funny, not seriuos at all, did not read from a script or anything. I mean he admitted it what Landis probably is not going to do.

116

As expected, the B sample tested positive as well so Lanids will lose his Tour crown and probably be banned for two years.

I know they are going to fight it but whats the point. The samples contained synthetic test so how can that be explained by anything other than it being ingested?

He cant admit it now because he would just seem like a liar in addition of being a cheat. This is really a sad day for American cycling and le Tour in general.

A

117

The problem is, the story doesn’t seem to fit one way or another. It seems that the sample wasn’t handled properly when you have all the other ones coming out negative. The problem is that Landis is saying it was caused by alchohol and natural levels.

With the isotope test, doesn’t your body produce some types of test that would be considered synthetic for the purposes of the test?

118

Yeah I agree with the fact the story doesnt seem to fit. I do not think this is a matter of the sample not being handled correctly though since both A and B show the same thing. So unless there is some huge conspiracy going on, I dont see how that argument will stand up.

I am certainly no expert but I have always thought that it was impossible for your body to produce test that shows up as synthetic in any type of testing.

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
The problem is, the story doesn’t seem to fit one way or another. It seems that the sample wasn’t handled properly when you have all the other ones coming out negative. The problem is that Landis is saying it was caused by alchohol and natural levels.

With the isotope test, doesn’t your body produce some types of test that would be considered synthetic for the purposes of the test?[/quote]

119

[quote]Amsterdam Animal wrote:
Yeah I agree with the fact the story doesnt seem to fit. I do not think this is a matter of the sample not being handled correctly though since both A and B show the same thing. So unless there is some huge conspiracy going on, I dont see how that argument will stand up.
[/quote]
Well it just seems if one was mishandled in terms of temperature or something, the other sample is right with it right? So odds are both would be the same I think

I think that there is another ratio using the isotopes to figure it out so it would seem that your body does produce some of it. However, I don’t know how accurate anything is in this.

120

I think the real questions have failed to be answered. Im very confused about what appears to be a total fuck up all round…

A cyclist needs performance enchancing drugs to aid in well…performance. Would a single test shot have provided this? Is test the optimum aid to take? (i dont think so), test would surely, by default have raised his test levels - Isnt the main deal here that his epitest was low, not his test high?
Its no surprise that his b sample was found to have the same levels. When an athletes urine is taken, his sample is divided into 2 parts. An A sample and a B sample. The B sample only comes into play when the A brings up a result. If this is so, expect the B to confirm the A’s origional result.
Be interesting to see how his appeal handles all this. I still have the feeling this is far from over, which ultimately for the sport is shitty. Maybe that spanish wonder lawyer can help him???