L. Armstrong to be Stripped of All Titles

Off Topic
161

[quote]on edge wrote:
You lost credibility first calling it by far the toughest endurance race.

The thought process you display “It is not a witch hunt: again, please explain how someone on their death bed can recover to the point of being able to win such an arduous endurance event year after year without taking any PEDs. Against competition who 1. never had to come back from cancer, 2. by and large were ALL on drugs and have since been caught” is the very seed of this witch hunt. “No one could have done this so he had to be cheating. Let’s go make deals and/or coerce a bunch of witnesses until we get what we need.” Show me physical evidence or reliable witnesses, witnesses who have nothing to gain or lose, then I will be willing to pass a final judgement on a man. I’m not going to pass such judgement just because I think no one could have done what he did.

USADA needs to quit wasting tax dollars by going after retired athletes and work on catching athletes who are relevant now. Now that i think about it, maybe the thought process is they figured out he was using after the fact and now their feelings are all hurt because he managed to beat all their tests.[/quote]

Firstly, it can easily be called the most difficult endurance event in the world. Badwater etc are not elite in the way an Olympic marathon final or TDF is for example. They are contested by the athletic elite, Badwater etc are not. There’s no debate to be had over that.

In my opinion, a VERY strong argument can be made for the TDF being so tough in that for the last 100 years it has been so dogged by drug use. It is absolutely BRUTAL and has historically been viewed by many as literally not possible to win without some form of doping.

Anyway, not to go off on too much of a tangent. As far as more evidence is concerned, I have read alot of David Walsh’s stuff which is very compelling in my view.

Ranges from:
-witnesses claiming they have seen LA and others put an oil and testosterone mix in their mouth on a coach (i think called adriol or similar)
-vials of his blood in a fridge in his room
-syringes in his room
-EPO in his fridge
-him admitting to suppressed failed tests
-team intimidation to take drugs

Supposedly Tyler Hamilton’s book is going to reveal rampant drug abuse in the team at the time. There was a lot more too, this is just from memory.

There was another story of a guy who got stung by a wasp in the eye and couldn’t get a cortisone injection. Eye was so swollen he had to drop out. LA was shouting abuse at him saying what a pussy he was and if he hadn’t have left his team he could have had the injection and been fine. Then the rest of the peloton spitting towards his bike and intimidating him.

Again, maybe it is ALL only by people with an axe to grind. Being realistic, it’s not.

Sure, maybe his LIFE THREATENING debilitating cancer could be so swiftly recovered from that he was quickly able to train, compete and win in a top, world class endurance event for the next decade purely fuelled by his mom’s home cooking. Being realistic, it’s not.

Finally, and I do apologise for the vague nature of this as I honestly can’t remember all the details. Basically, a large reason LA is getting taken down now is that there was a guy in 2006 I think who was banned retrospectively who hadn’t failed tests either. There was so much overwhelming circumstantial evidence of doping that he was banned regardless. There was a change in stance from then. If LA had stayed retired he would have been fine, but he came back and finished 3rd and has been getting chased since due to this. Again, sorry for some of the vagueness and if dates aren’t 100% correct am typing this pretty first, but that is the gist of it.

162

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Glad he has been banned and lost all of his titles, he cheated in order to win every single one.[/quote]

FTR, he hasn’t lost a single Tour de France title.

you know for a fact that he cheated? you saw him? you shot him up yourself?

didn’t think so.[/quote]

A large number of individuals who did know him were willing to testify that he did.

Good enough for me.

[/quote]

So you would take someone else’s word over actual evidence that shows he wasn’t cheating? That makes no sense.

So if you took a test and passed (over 500 of them actually) and then a group of people who knew you said you were lying then it would be ok to find you guilty based on that?

lol. You can’t possibly believe that.

163

yolo84 and jacked71 are the only two that seem to know anything about bike racing…how it really is… all the other comments saying lance didnt cheat can stick to their sport…they just dont know…
like my previous post said, drug use is widespread in holland and belgium, and all the other cycling countries…hell, its bad here in the states too…at the lesser division, those trying to make it up the ladder…they cheat as much as the big pros…

i was there in belgium years ago… … i seen it. they are all studs… lightning fast races… then throw in the guys on drugs and the ex pros and the race is full on… and thats at the 3 level… theres the 2, the 1,then the big guys level… insane fast…belgiun cocktails, epo, the list goes on and on what the D3-big guys take…it was the hardest thing i have ever done. finishing in the back of just about all the races, but knowing i was clean…

164

[quote]gregron wrote:
So you would take someone else’s word over actual evidence that shows he wasn’t cheating? That makes no sense.

So if you took a test and passed (over 500 of them actually) and then a group of people who knew you said you were lying then it would be ok to find you guilty based on that?

lol. You can’t possibly believe that.[/quote]

No sane person thinks LA didn’t take PEDs. You seem sane from your posts. Therefore, you just want to argue, so you’ll just disagree regardless.

Do you not think there were a number of ulterior motives for LA to pass tests? Ranging from cancer survivor and all the publicity and sponsor MONEY for the sport. To the ingrained general culture of doping in the sport. To taking undetectable drugs etc.

If you are interested in this kind of thing in general, read The Dirtiest Race in History about the '88 100m final. Shows the shadiness and corruption in sport in general. Shows how Carl Lewis in a pretty similar situation to LA had tests suppressed etc.

I don’t think it’s a witch hunt. Times in the TDF have being slowing and stages being made slightly “easier” this all is due to an acceptance that the drug abuse was out of control, demands were too much and things have to change.

I am not saying LA is the devil. But equally he definitely fucking cheated and became a multi millionaire in the process, so if the sport finally wants to clean up, then fuck him, he did cheat and is getting what he deserves.

165

Did he cheat? Maybe? But until there is actual proof no one can “know” for sure.

Do I know for a fact that he cheated? No.
Do you know for a fact he cheated? No.
Does anyone in this thread know? Again, No.

There is cheating/doping in EVERY sport out there so just because someone is at the top of that sport doesn’t mean they are cheating as well. Does it raise suspicions? Of course it does but it doesn’t make them a matter of fact cheater unless they test positive.

Is Usain Bolt on PED’s?
Is Michael Phelps on PED’s?
Is Adrian Peterson on PED’s?
Is Tom Brady on PED’s?
Is Jeter on PED’s?
Is LeBron James on PED’s?

^^just because they’re at the top of sports where cheating is known to happen doesn’t mean that they are cheating as well.

166

Also, you do know that Lance Armstrong wasn’t just some sedentary normal person sitting around all day who got ball cancer and then just decided to start riding a bike right?

He was a profession triathlete from the age of 15 or so and was ranked number 1 in the world for his age group when he was 18 or 19 (something like that)

The dude was a stud athlete his whole life.

Innocent until proven guilty.

167

Some good points in this post:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-thoughts-and.html?m=1

168

[quote]gregron wrote:
Did he cheat? Maybe? But until there is actual proof no one can “know” for sure.

Do I know for a fact that he cheated? No.
Do you know for a fact he cheated? No.
Does anyone in this thread know? Again, No.

There is cheating/doping in EVERY sport out there so just because someone is at the top of that sport doesn’t mean they are cheating as well. Does it raise suspicions? Of course it does but it doesn’t make them a matter of fact cheater unless they test positive.

Is Usain Bolt on PED’s?
Is Michael Phelps on PED’s?
Is Adrian Peterson on PED’s?
Is Tom Brady on PED’s?
Is Jeter on PED’s?
Is LeBron James on PED’s?

^^just because they’re at the top of sports where cheating is known to happen doesn’t mean that they are cheating as well.[/quote]

I get your point, but I think you are failing to realise doping was/is ENDEMIC in the TDF and cycling in general. As in, honestly up there with bodybuilding as far as drugs are concerned, never mind other sports. Not to be patronising at all -you are a good guy- but if you had any knowledge of cycling in particular (forget other sports) you just wouldn’t say this.

Regarding “proof” I have already noted multiple numerous individuals giving examples of his doping who were willing to testify in court. Why are you dismissing this?

169

[quote]gregron wrote:
Also, you do know that Lance Armstrong wasn’t just some sedentary normal person sitting around all day who got ball cancer and then just decided to start riding a bike right?

He was a profession triathlete from the age of 15 or so and was ranked number 1 in the world for his age group when he was 18 or 19 (something like that)

The dude was a stud athlete his whole life.

Innocent until proven guilty.[/quote]

Yes I have read both of his books. I know what I’m talking about.

I only really posted here cos I am sick of the (not from you) completely ignorant and idiotic “they just hate Americans” “500 tests baby” “he’s a HERO” “cycling is a joke shitty sport they should be THANKFUL for LA” type posts.

DebraD’s post basically ends all debate, hopefully you and others will just admit it.

170

I realize that dipping is huge in cycling, just like it is/was huge in baseball (steroid era???) but that doesn’t mean that everyone is for sure cheating.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t but doesn’t for sure mean he was. Likely? Yes. For sure? No

171

[quote]gregron wrote:
I realize that dipping is huge in cycling, just like it is/was huge in baseball (steroid era???) but that doesn’t mean that everyone is for sure cheating.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t but doesn’t for sure mean he was. Likely? Yes. For sure? No[/quote]

Read DebraD’s link.

172

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:
I realize that dipping is huge in cycling, just like it is/was huge in baseball (steroid era???) but that doesn’t mean that everyone is for sure cheating.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t but doesn’t for sure mean he was. Likely? Yes. For sure? No[/quote]

Read DebraD’s link.[/quote]

I read the first 1/3 and stopped because the author is trying to pass of opinion/conjecture as fact.

“The only thing one can say with certainty about Armstrong’s decision is that he felt that he had no chance of winning an arbitration proceeding before the USADA.”

^^LOL. What “certainty” is he talking about?

Until he’s actually proven guilty it’s all opinions/projections/assumptions.

173

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Glad he has been banned and lost all of his titles, he cheated in order to win every single one.[/quote]

I’m largely in agreement with you on that, but I also think that the integrity of cycling is not worth much in comparison with raising half a billion for cancer and inspiring those who have it.

I also don’t know why we’re not hearing more (and didn’t hear more) about the fact that his old samples were retested for EPO once a new test had been developed, and it came back positive. The French press was all over that in about 2005.

Still, he DID come back from his deathbed to win the TDF against a bumch of guys who never had to deal with cancer. If he was on drugs, so were they (although he may have had a better chemist, or reacted better to the drugs).

I also think it’s a pity they seem to have gotten him more on witness testimony than on physical evidence. But we don’t yet know everything they do have - althought we do know that he thinks he can’t beat them anymore.

174

totally a with hunt and they do hate him.

I know the bike world. grew up in Holland and managed a gym full of semi pro and pro riders. They all use if they want to win. So it is a level playing field. So he is still the best. And thus it is a with hunt.

They all take PED’s so if this was not a with hunt then they would have to put the, now new, number 1 under the same scrutiny. There is a reason the number three, who is now getting silver, says LA is still the champion in his mind.

I also am a testicular survivor and the chemo wrecked my body beyond anything. Only time I felt decent? with 500 mg of test enanthate in my system. three years later and I am still only half the man I used to be.

he used. they all do/did. this is widely known. to go after him is bullshit and is only because he is LA and born in the greatest country in the world :slight_smile:

had he been French this would not have happened.

175

[quote]debraD wrote:
Some good points in this post:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-thoughts-and.html?m=1

[/quote]

If there were good points in that post they all must have been in the second half because there were none in the 1st half. The first half was a steaming pile of shit.

*So he didn’t pass 500 tests, he past 236. That’s about how many times I have sex in a year and about the combined total of the rest of you schmucks.

*Are we to convict Lance because Tim Montgomery and Marion Jones passed a lot of tests?

*Is Lance guilty because Eastern European numbers have been coming down since stricter controls? Btw, most records have continued getting faster, longer and heavier. Look at all the sprint and swim records. Decathlon records continue to be set.

*If you take EPO 13 hours before competition it won’t be detected. Yeah that’s proof Lance is guilty.

*During his 7 year span the two favored doping methods were undetectable. That’s proof.

*Do we convict Lance if the Biological Passport test came back suspicious but apparently below the threshold they set as definative?

*The paragraph about the failed EPO test - I don’t think he even understands what he wrote. On one hand it sounds like he’s saying Lance got off because the statute of limitations ran out and on the other hand it sounds like he’s saying he got off because there was no B sample. Whatever the case, he beat the rule of the day. Bottom line, he did beat the rule of the day and you can’t just go and change the rules 'cause you are determined to get someone. Unless, of course, you’re on a witch hunt.

*Allegations of bribes. Allegations are alwaaaayyys proof.

*Speculation of tip offs for test dates. Evidence? Good grief, paragraph after paragraph is rubbish. I’ll continue for kicks.

*The point that “everyone is doing it” doesn’t make it okay. I agree, but that belief is also not proof that literally everyone is doing it. With that attitude they should just convict all the competitors and cancel the damn bike ride.

*Lance has the most money and the most power. He must be using it to escape detection. Beautiful logic.

*Basically everything this guys says in part 3 is from the point of view that Lance is guilty. There’s no real points being made just a lot of jabbering. I could go on but this but it’s getting repetitive.

176

[quote]nrt wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Glad he has been banned and lost all of his titles, he cheated in order to win every single one.[/quote]

I’m largely in agreement with you on that, but I also think that the integrity of cycling is not worth much in comparison with raising half a billion for cancer and inspiring those who have it.

I also don’t know why we’re not hearing more (and didn’t hear more) about the fact that his old samples were retested for EPO once a new test had been developed, and it came back positive. The French press was all over that in about 2005.

Still, he DID come back from his deathbed to win the TDF against a bumch of guys who never had to deal with cancer. If he was on drugs, so were they (although he may have had a better chemist, or reacted better to the drugs).

I also think it’s a pity they seem to have gotten him more on witness testimony than on physical evidence. But we don’t yet know everything they do have - althought we do know that he thinks he can’t beat them anymore. [/quote]

No one on this forum can argue with the fact that his come back from cancer and his return to pro cycling were quite remarkable. That being said, some of Lance’s antics during his career really make you make you question the extreme demands he placed on himself and his teammates in order to seek that edge over the competition.

Here is list

1995 - Former Postal teammate Stephen Swart admits that he took EPO as did most of his teammates. Swart said that Lance himself pretty much spear headed the team doping practices and encouraged everyone to get onboard quickly, as Lance felt the team were losing their edge against some of the stronger European teams.

1998 - Lance becomes a client of the Dr. Ferrari. Anyone in the cycling circle knows that association with Dr. Ferrari clearly implies a well thought out doping program. Dr. Ferrari is without doubt one of the dodgiest characters in pro cycling during the past two decades. Riders who were clients consistenly made allegations that EPO was a big part of his program. Lance was clearly not paying this doctor $60K a year for meal plans along with a few training programs.

1999 - Corticosteroids (illegimate backdated prescription without a TUE) - EPO 6 of 15 Samples (Suppressed by UCI). His victory on the Sestiere stage in the TDF had everyone scratching their heads that year. This coming from a rider considered a weak climber in the high alpine stages.

2001 - Covered up drug test by the UCI during the 2001 Tour of Suisse. Former teammates (at least 3) have come forward stating that a positive test was in fact covered. Lance later that year decides to donate a monetary gift to the UCI for the fine work these folks did in covering up his tests I presume.

2004 - Lance decides to chase down a break with Pippo Simeoni for no apparent reason and orders him back to the peleton. This rider was placed 150th position on the general classification and posed no threat to Armstrong, yet because he was an outspoken advocate against doping, Lance felt this was a personal attack on him and the rest of the peleton. Lance later claimed he was trying to save the integrity of the sport, thus the reason for his attack on Simeoni. Even some of Lance’s own teammates at the time thought he was an idiot for acting in that manner.

2009 - USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010.

There is of course a lot more, but you can see that Lance sought out many ways to achieve an advanatage over his competition, and at all possible costs I should add. I think Greg Lemond summed up LA’s character best, when he said, " Even with all of his cycling success, the constant need for more fame and more money, LA will never find happiness".

177

A number of years ago I had a big debate with a guy called Rainjack over Roger Clemens. RJ said Clemens was clean, I said no way, you don’t suddenly get better at 40 when you had been on the decline unless you were getting help. I was absolutely right (as usual) but if I was sitting on some kind of jury and presented with that type of logic as PROOF, I would LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD.

They need more than conjecture, new rules applied to the past and coerced witnesses to justly go after this guy.

178

OnEdge- that was a spot on recap of that BS article. The part about the 236 tests (which he specifically said is an estimate that he then tries to pass off as fact) was completely laughable.

Practically verything in that article was an opinion that was being masqueraded as fact. There was nothing in there at all.

179

[quote]JACKED71 wrote:

[quote]nrt wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
Glad he has been banned and lost all of his titles, he cheated in order to win every single one.[/quote]

I’m largely in agreement with you on that, but I also think that the integrity of cycling is not worth much in comparison with raising half a billion for cancer and inspiring those who have it.

I also don’t know why we’re not hearing more (and didn’t hear more) about the fact that his old samples were retested for EPO once a new test had been developed, and it came back positive. The French press was all over that in about 2005.

Still, he DID come back from his deathbed to win the TDF against a bumch of guys who never had to deal with cancer. If he was on drugs, so were they (although he may have had a better chemist, or reacted better to the drugs).

I also think it’s a pity they seem to have gotten him more on witness testimony than on physical evidence. But we don’t yet know everything they do have - althought we do know that he thinks he can’t beat them anymore. [/quote]

No one on this forum can argue with the fact that his come back from cancer and his return to pro cycling were quite remarkable. That being said, some of Lance’s antics during his career really make you make you question the extreme demands he placed on himself and his teammates in order to seek that edge over the competition.

Here is list

1995 - Former Postal teammate Stephen Swart admits that he took EPO as did most of his teammates. Swart said that Lance himself pretty much spear headed the team doping practices and encouraged everyone to get onboard quickly, as Lance felt the team were losing their edge against some of the stronger European teams.

1998 - Lance becomes a client of the Dr. Ferrari. Anyone in the cycling circle knows that association with Dr. Ferrari clearly implies a well thought out doping program. Dr. Ferrari is without doubt one of the dodgiest characters in pro cycling during the past two decades. Riders who were clients consistenly made allegations that EPO was a big part of his program. Lance was clearly not paying this doctor $60K a year for meal plans along with a few training programs.

1999 - Corticosteroids (illegimate backdated prescription without a TUE) - EPO 6 of 15 Samples (Suppressed by UCI). His victory on the Sestiere stage in the TDF had everyone scratching their heads that year. This coming from a rider considered a weak climber in the high alpine stages.

2001 - Covered up drug test by the UCI during the 2001 Tour of Suisse. Former teammates (at least 3) have come forward stating that a positive test was in fact covered. Lance later that year decides to donate a monetary gift to the UCI for the fine work these folks did in covering up his tests I presume.

2004 - Lance decides to chase down a break with Pippo Simeoni for no apparent reason and orders him back to the peleton. This rider was placed 150th position on the general classification and posed no threat to Armstrong, yet because he was an outspoken advocate against doping, Lance felt this was a personal attack on him and the rest of the peleton. Lance later claimed he was trying to save the integrity of the sport, thus the reason for his attack on Simeoni. Even some of Lance’s own teammates at the time thought he was an idiot for acting in that manner.

2009 - USADA talks about evidence of EPO and Transfusions from 2009 and 2010.

There is of course a lot more, but you can see that Lance sought out many ways to achieve an advanatage over his competition, and at all possible costs I should add. I think Greg Lemond summed up LA’s character best, when he said, " Even with all of his cycling success, the constant need for more fame and more money, LA will never find happiness".

[/quote]

Wow… I had broken this entire post down and responded to it individually and then accidentally hit reset. What a waste.

CLIFF NOTES:

None of this is in any way factual and is mostly presumptions, assumptions and conjecture. Not fact.

Also the last line about never being happy or satisfied because of the need for more success… Sounds like any of the great athletes out there. Jordan, Kobe, Tiger Woods etc… They have a hunger for victory and a drive and that’s what makes them great.

180

[quote]on edge wrote:
A number of years ago I had a big debate with a guy called Rainjack over Roger Clemens. RJ said Clemens was clean, I said no way, you don’t suddenly get better at 40 when you had been on the decline unless you were getting help. I was absolutely right (as usual) but if I was sitting on some kind of jury and presented with that type of logic as PROOF, I would LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD.

They need more than conjecture, new rules applied to the past and coerced witnesses to justly go after this guy.[/quote]

There are multiple WITNESSES who are willing to testify in court!

It is laughable that you are dismissing over a dozen separate individuals who have a wealth of circumstantial evidence.

Tyler Hamilton who was on LA’s team said doping was absolutely rampant at the time and was led by LA. He can give dozens of dates, locations and examples of what went on in depth.

Others can corroborate alot of this and have their own similar examples.

There is also EVIDENCE of his blood containing EPO during his career.

WHY would ALL of these people lie? Get real, they are not lying. Members of his own fucking team said they were all on drugs.

Again - you and others are just choosing to ignore this in order to argue. As I have said, cycling was/is so full of dopers it would rival pro bodybuilding never mind the NFL.

Phil Heath has never taken a drugs test (i know he doesn’t have to). If he says he has never taken roids, does anyone with KNOWLEDGE of BB believe him? No. Yet plenty of guys who have no idea of what they are talking about would say - maybe he just trains harder/genetics/diet/ did YOU see him inject steroids?!

It is the exact same here. If 9 of the top 10 at the Mr O say they are on roids or failed tests, but the guy who wins says he wasn’t, no one on this site would believe him. Anyone who follows cycling would say the exact same about the TDF at the time.