Kung Fu Master Baiting

Training
101

Btw, that movie that the first clip is from “The Cutoff” features Shihan Depasquale Sr., Shihan Jay, Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, Keith Hackney, Walt Lysak Jr., and Charlie Lysak. That’s one heck of a MA cast if you ask me. :slight_smile: We watched the entire film with Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, and of course Shihan Walt and Shihan Charlie at one of the iCAT conference banquets, it was a lot of fun to hear the background story and get commentary from the actors involved.

We also watched a behind the scenes interview with Sensei Lewis from the DVD of “Circle Of Iron” which he gave some additional commentary on and told us a story of how David Carradine just barely escaped with his life (well, not really but let’s just say that he was pushing his luck with Sensei Lewis) after the director had Sensei Lewis and Mike Stone re-film all the fight sequences to put into the final film.

End rant.

102

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0304-MAR_IRAQ?click=main_sr

[/quote]

That is a GREAT fucking article. That’s got to be one of the best articles I’ve read in a while, both in terms of the writing style and the actual content. Makes you think.

The last few paragraphs tell you what it is like to REALLY need to make decisions on defense. You have to be prepared. You have to decide ahead of time as Kelly put it, and you have to be willing to assess critically and put limits on YOURSELF too. In this case there were guns and a crowd but in the street downtown it might just be fists. Or bats. Or something.

Wow. I’m favoriting that.[/quote]

It really is spectacular, I agree, and I’m a full fledged Democrat, so for me to say something by Tucker Carlson is good means something.

Regardless, like you said - it really puts it all into perspective. The fear that Carlson feels in that article, especially during the firefights, is real, and he conveys it well, as well as the feelings that he gets when he realizes that nobody - not the Iraqi police, or the army, or whomever - is going to come to their rescue.

And at the end, when that bow-tie wearing homo actually has to take aim at someone in a foreign country with an AK-47, you know he means it, and you can feel that he’s really uncomfortable with the whole situation. [/quote]

LOL at “bow-tie wearing homo” :). It’s really vivid. You can tell he means it and you can tell he’s made that conscious decision to survive when the stark sentence “I would start with the one on the right” hits. That’s the reality of war, and of survival. You can tell the realization of it shocks him, as a soft green civilian, when it hits his mind–the idea that he HAS to hurt somebody if he wants to go home in one piece… so foreign to his brain. But it takes everything he’s been told about war and personal defense and shows him the blunt reality of what that means when there’s no referee to stop it, no FBI or police to investigate or intercede, nothing except your will vs. the will of those that want you dead.

I have to think that it’s somehow…just a little tiny bit…different when he’s surrounded by Kelly and a team of 20 contractors. I get the sense, and I could be wrong, that he starts out the article and you can tell it’s real, it’s terrifying, and it’s shocking…but he kinda feels like “these guys are professionals: they can take care of me” when he’s with the group. Right up until he HAS to do it himself or he is going. to. die.

[quote]In a situation like some of us so often face, it really gives the feeling that you get when you’re faced with something in the street - the racing heart, the shaking hands, etc. You just can’t replicate that in the ring, no matter how hard you try.

In short, yes, I love that article too. It’s superb. [/quote]

Hahaha. Yes, that is indeed high praise from you, you diehard blue dog. I do think Tucker’s writing style is good regardless of his opinions, but there is something about the visceral reality that carries over and takes a decently good writing style into the next level because you can just tell, he’s SCARED when he’s writing this. He’s reliving the fear, and that makes a very powerful story regardless of politics.

Politics aside, thanks very much for linking that. I still get goosebumps the 2nd time I read it.

103

[quote]Whelanj wrote:

If I’d been through that I doubt I’d be able to pass the psychological evaluation to get hired by wall-mart… Going to war and not losing your soul to it is the height of bad-ass in my opinion, but you can’t teach that in a Dojo or maybe even at all.
[/quote]

That is my opinion too. It takes an incredibly strong mind and will to be able to take CQB or sniping (or any war at all, but especially those two) for months on end without losing your soul. That’s true strength IMHO.

I have a friend who was in Kashmir with the Indian army. He’s like family to me, and fortunately he made it through without injury. Not many people look at him and even think he’s got any military background let alone been in combat. He’s a nerd, happy go lucky, everything. But his first kill was a bayonet kill. He’s told me about it, the smell of it and the overwhelming nausea and fear and stench. Some stuff that he doesn’t ever talk about. The fact that he made it out of repeated CQB like that and has no scars on his mind is remarkable.

104

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Whelanj wrote:

If I’d been through that I doubt I’d be able to pass the psychological evaluation to get hired by wall-mart… Going to war and not losing your soul to it is the height of bad-ass in my opinion, but you can’t teach that in a Dojo or maybe even at all.
[/quote]

That is my opinion too. It takes an incredibly strong mind and will to be able to take CQB or sniping (or any war at all, but especially those two) for months on end without losing your soul. That’s true strength IMHO.

I have a friend who was in Kashmir with the Indian army. He’s like family to me, and fortunately he made it through without injury. Not many people look at him and even think he’s got any military background let alone been in combat. He’s a nerd, happy go lucky, everything. But his first kill was a bayonet kill. He’s told me about it, the smell of it and the overwhelming nausea and fear and stench. Some stuff that he doesn’t ever talk about. The fact that he made it out of repeated CQB like that and has no scars on his mind is remarkable.[/quote]

So true. Movies show this shit to be just like killing a rat, but in reality things are far different. It’s not clean, not sanitary, and little things - like the fact that as soon as you kill something, their bowels and all let go - never get shown on the big screen.

People’s ideas of violence are so much different than real life, and shit that happens like what happened to your friend is rarely even talked about, as you said.

105

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Btw, that movie that the first clip is from “The Cutoff” features Shihan Depasquale Sr., Shihan Jay, Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, Keith Hackney, Walt Lysak Jr., and Charlie Lysak. That’s one heck of a MA cast if you ask me. :slight_smile: We watched the entire film with Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, and of course Shihan Walt and Shihan Charlie at one of the iCAT conference banquets, it was a lot of fun to hear the background story and get commentary from the actors involved.

We also watched a behind the scenes interview with Sensei Lewis from the DVD of “Circle Of Iron” which he gave some additional commentary on and told us a story of how David Carradine just barely escaped with his life (well, not really but let’s just say that he was pushing his luck with Sensei Lewis) after the director had Sensei Lewis and Mike Stone re-film all the fight sequences to put into the final film.

End rant.[/quote]

I grew up in the south east doing Karate and JKD, going to Joe Lewis Seminars in North Carolina was a definite highlight for my childhood. I don’t know how he is now but in the late 90’s he was still sparring hard with his students and knocking people on butt’s with side kicks from super close range. All of his knowledge was really impressive, but I always got the impression that he felt like he had been unfairly denied greater fame and recognition. He was probably right. In China, there’s a whole generation of these guys that never got a shot at competing, or even demonstrating during their fighting prime for purely political reasons. I think that’s why there’s so much bitterness in the Chinese martial arts scene some times. I hope the next generation of Chinese fighters will have something better to do than wander around in parks at 6:00 am and snipe at each other.

106

[quote]Whelanj wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Btw, that movie that the first clip is from “The Cutoff” features Shihan Depasquale Sr., Shihan Jay, Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, Keith Hackney, Walt Lysak Jr., and Charlie Lysak. That’s one heck of a MA cast if you ask me. :slight_smile: We watched the entire film with Sensei Depasquale Jr., Joe Lewis, and of course Shihan Walt and Shihan Charlie at one of the iCAT conference banquets, it was a lot of fun to hear the background story and get commentary from the actors involved.

We also watched a behind the scenes interview with Sensei Lewis from the DVD of “Circle Of Iron” which he gave some additional commentary on and told us a story of how David Carradine just barely escaped with his life (well, not really but let’s just say that he was pushing his luck with Sensei Lewis) after the director had Sensei Lewis and Mike Stone re-film all the fight sequences to put into the final film.

End rant.[/quote]

I grew up in the south east doing Karate and JKD, going to Joe Lewis Seminars in North Carolina was a definite highlight for my childhood. I don’t know how he is now but in the late 90’s he was still sparring hard with his students and knocking people on butt’s with side kicks from super close range. All of his knowledge was really impressive, but I always got the impression that he felt like he had been unfairly denied greater fame and recognition. He was probably right. In China, there’s a whole generation of these guys that never got a shot at competing, or even demonstrating during their fighting prime for purely political reasons. I think that’s why there’s so much bitterness in the Chinese martial arts scene some times. I hope the next generation of Chinese fighters will have something better to do than wander around in parks at 6:00 am and snipe at each other.
[/quote]

Nice! Sensei Lewis is currently battling brain cancer, so atm I don’t think he’s sparring hard, but up until he was diagnosed last year I’m pretty sure he was. Even when I saw him post brain surgery a couple months ago he was still incredibly fast, powerful, and made the rest of us shake our heads in disbelief with his mobility/footwork skills.

I can understand how some of these Chinese martial artists might feel better that they didn’t get to showcase their skills (if they fancy themselves fighters) while still in their primes. But, in regards to the next generation of Chinese fighters, there is really nothing stopping them (well perhaps the current Government in China is not combat sports friendly, so I might be wrong about this) from showcasing their skills today. You’ve got plenty of professional MMA fighters coming from Japan, South Korea, Thailand, and other places in East. I doubt the UFC has some kind of ban on allowing Chinese fighters to compete or anything like that.

Now, if you’re going to argue that their skills are designed for real world encounters or battlefield combat and not sport, then I’d say there really isn’t much opportunity for anyone to showcase those types of skills on a big stage. For those types they pretty much have to just put stuff on videos and try to sell them, or put those videos (or clips of them) up on youtube or other video sharing sites and hope that they get noticed and gain some recognition, and hopefully attract would be students. Again, other than perhaps lack of funds (which could be an issue I suppose) there really isn’t anything stopping them from doing this either.

In regards to the videos, I like that Master Zhang is talking about the importance of angles in the third video. Indeed most effective combative systems utilize that principle and it’s a great one. I question whether some of those techniques would violate the “law of time” though. Did he ever have any of you guys spar full speed with him? And if so, did he actually pull any of the techniques that he showed in any of those videos off in real time (specifically that takedown entry)?

107

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
lmao at this thread.
A lot of masters, got baited by a lot of masturbators so who is the master and who is the baiter and who is the masturbator?

Sheesh, who gives a flying fuck about that poofta wasting his money on a trip to China to put a throw on an old man and act like He-man and who gives a flying fuck about Chinese playground park lineage grandmasters.

[/quote]

Ah… what?[/quote]

IN THE INTEREST OF COMEDY
Hang on…I might be able to translate.

[quote]humble wrote:
lmao at this thread.
[/quote]
Humble IS amused at this thread.

I think humble is saying that both the “Master” in question and the “baiter/videographer” appear to be overly concerned with making themselves feel good / having fantasies and as such drawing a distinction between the “Master” and the “Student” who described the video as “One man’s quest to restore the honor of his kung fu style, becomes an intellectual Odyssey for the soul of Chinese Martial Arts.” is largely arbitrary.

Or, humble really likes making puns about wanking and likes to talk / think about other dude’s doing it. I doubt it is the latter case, but I am wrong a lot.

I think he is saying the “student” / OP’s friend comes off as having a rainbow in his pocket and that said friend of Dorothy’s costly adventures in China to toss about aging self anointed masters on stone walkways in a park are unimportant in his (humble’s) world view and should be in ours at well. I think he is also siding in the camp of function over lineage, but I may be reaching with that.

That or…humble snapped and all we are going to get from him here on out are posts about guys masturbating and wrestling with old asian men…which probably has its own website. Not that I am judging at all.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

hahaha…you never disappoint Robert.

108

[quote]

Nice! Sensei Lewis is currently battling brain cancer, so atm I don’t think he’s sparring hard, but up until he was diagnosed last year I’m pretty sure he was. Even when I saw him post brain surgery a couple months ago he was still incredibly fast, powerful, and made the rest of us shake our heads in disbelief with his mobility/footwork skills…

Now, if you’re going to argue that their skills are designed for real world encounters or battlefield combat and not sport, then I’d say there really isn’t much opportunity for anyone to showcase those types of skills on a big stage. For those types they pretty much have to just put stuff on videos and try to sell them, or put those videos (or clips of them) up on youtube or other video sharing sites and hope that they get noticed and gain some recognition, and hopefully attract would be students. Again, other than perhaps lack of funds (which could be an issue I suppose) there really isn’t anything stopping them from doing this either.

In regards to the videos, I like that Master Zhang is talking about the importance of angles in the third video…Did he ever have any of you guys spar full speed with him? And if so, did he actually pull any of the techniques that he showed in any of those videos off in real time (specifically that take down entry)?[/quote]

Brain cancer! That is by far the shittiest news I’ve heard all year!

On the whole I totally agree with you about the MMA thing. There are still three factors that make it a little bit tough for some of the younger guys to catch a break:

1: Legally all martial arts in China has to regulated by the National Wushu association. That includes MMA promotions like Art of War. Dealing with those guys is VERY expensive and they always insist on their people being involved on some level. It’s very difficult to comprehend what a nightmare working with post socialist bureaucracy is as a westerner, try to imagine a small town zoning hearing mixed with a, the worst aspects of a scavenger hunt and the tax-preparation process.

2: Nobody in China knows what MMA is, and promoting anything in China requires working with the state media. The Royal Emirs of Dubai have invested in Chinese MMA and have yet to receive any ROTI even after almost a decade.

3: There’s a lot of superstition among the general public and so it’s very hard for well meaning people of genuine skill to compete with guys who are just smooth talkers. It’s damn hard to get people to pay attention to things like “hard work and exercise are vital parts of training,” when some one else is saying “exercise is bad for your Qi” just as loud.

As for Mr. Zhang, I have to apologize in advance because I know that it is MY responsibility to back up “extraordinary claims with extraordinary evidence” and I don’t have the videos to do that at the moment:

He doesn’t spar with us often because 50+ years of chain smoking, have taken a huge toll on his stamina, also he has grain alcohol with every meal so he’s usually a bit tipsy by the time I finishes his morning workout, which he takes alone. When I’m over there he might give me 2-3:00 minutes a week. When I do spar him I wear a chest protector and MMA gloves, he wears boxing gloves and doesn’t use a mouth piece because his teeth are false.

He doesn’t seem to understand the concept of 50% contact, but he only hits the chest protector. His favorite moves are largely represented by these videos. He walks through my jabs and usually stops me with liver punches or take downs as shown. Obviously I’m not a very big or skillful guy, so take that for what it’s worth. One time I rolled for a heel hook on him, I couldn’t budge him so I switched to and x guard and tried to sweep him.

Another teacher would have told me to stand up after 30 seconds of struggling but he just kept going. He then spent the next two minutes avoiding my sweeps and punching down at me. Eventually I stood myself back up in frustration. A better or even a bigger fighter would have swept him I’m sure but I couldn’t.

He also makes his Tai Chi students spar even though most of them don’t want to, since they’re mostly an alternative medicine crowd. Here’s video of one of them, here only because he signed up for the Tai Chi elective at his Medical College, being forced to spar in 09. Being a healthy male he found he liked it :slight_smile:

109

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
lmao at this thread.
A lot of masters, got baited by a lot of masturbators so who is the master and who is the baiter and who is the masturbator?

Sheesh, who gives a flying fuck about that poofta wasting his money on a trip to China to put a throw on an old man and act like He-man and who gives a flying fuck about Chinese playground park lineage grandmasters.

[/quote]

Ah… what?[/quote]

IN THE INTEREST OF COMEDY
Hang on…I might be able to translate.

[quote]humble wrote:
lmao at this thread.
[/quote]
Humble IS amused at this thread.

I think humble is saying that both the “Master” in question and the “baiter/videographer” appear to be overly concerned with making themselves feel good / having fantasies and as such drawing a distinction between the “Master” and the “Student” who described the video as “One man’s quest to restore the honor of his kung fu style, becomes an intellectual Odyssey for the soul of Chinese Martial Arts.” is largely arbitrary.

Or, humble really likes making puns about wanking and likes to talk / think about other dude’s doing it. I doubt it is the latter case, but I am wrong a lot.

I think he is saying the “student” / OP’s friend comes off as having a rainbow in his pocket and that said friend of Dorothy’s costly adventures in China to toss about aging self anointed masters on stone walkways in a park are unimportant in his (humble’s) world view and should be in ours at well. I think he is also siding in the camp of function over lineage, but I may be reaching with that.

That or…humble snapped and all we are going to get from him here on out are posts about guys masturbating and wrestling with old asian men…which probably has its own website. Not that I am judging at all.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

hahaha…you never disappoint Robert.[/quote]

Indeed. I like the fact that Robert can decipher so well.

This video reminds me of what Bruce Lee hated so much. Bunch of bullshit.
How many wars were won by great Kung fu/Karate/TMA masters? Shit doesn’t work, never has and never will when chaos prevails in almost every single fight/battle.

110

From what I understand the Chinese Held off for a long time without weapons during the Boxer Rebellion. That being said, my years in Japan has left me with an idea that they don’t teach the real stuff to everybody.

I also kind of got a sense that maybe there is no real stuff and everyone just acts like there is or that at some point you will be able to combine all these seperate movements into a fight… Im not sure but I never liked the way TMA’s are taught.

I think it really does depend on the teacher. I know some students learn things that others never will. I know my sensei wanted to see a certain level of commitment to the art and to the"group" There were many things he would not teach until you became a black belt and that was considered the begining of your training in many ways.

Lately I have also found myself using some Uechi Ryu blocks and counters in sparring sessions. I am a bit out of practice and it takes a bit of effort but they have been effective in bettering my position to throw some power punches. Everything is situational and again like Bruce Lee did you can take the things that work for you from many systems.

111

[quote]humble wrote:

How many wars were won by great Kung fu/Karate/TMA masters? Shit doesn’t work, never has and never will when chaos prevails in almost every single fight/battle.
[/quote]

Not for anything, but what does winning battles have to do with this? Are you saying that systems of unarmed combat and weapon skills didn’t win battles before guns?

Listen, I get that you’re disaffected by TMA’s, but don’t use red herrings like that to attempt to disprove the usefulness of arts that were once effective, and have even been adapted by many to make them useful again.

112

the mystique and grandeur of tma’s is mythology at best is what I’m getting at and snake oil hucksterism at worst.
It’s a hocus pocus bunch of movements put together to create an aura that never existed that westerners get caught by hook, line and sinker.

Look at poor old grandmaster in the video, body slammed when choreography went out the window.

Look at beardo talk about “if you do this move, I do this move” choreographed bullshit. Seriously.

113

[quote]humble wrote:
the mystique and grandeur of tma’s is mythology at best is what I’m getting at and snake oil hucksterism at worst.
It’s a hocus pocus bunch of movements put together to create an aura that never existed that westerners get caught by hook, line and sinker.

Look at poor old grandmaster in the video, body slammed when choreography went out the window.

Look at beardo talk about “if you do this move, I do this move” choreographed bullshit. Seriously.[/quote]

Hocus pocus bunch of movements? Have you read any of this thread or are you just blatantly talking about your ass like I think you are?

114

[quote]humble wrote:
the mystique and grandeur of tma’s is mythology at best is what I’m getting at and snake oil hucksterism at worst.
It’s a hocus pocus bunch of movements put together to create an aura that never existed that westerners get caught by hook, line and sinker.

Look at poor old grandmaster in the video, body slammed when choreography went out the window.

Look at beardo talk about “if you do this move, I do this move” choreographed bullshit. Seriously.[/quote]

I get what you are trying to say…I think. I have some disillusion about TMA’s as well but based on what you are saying I wonder what methods you use to train. If he does this I do this type of conversation seems like you are being a bit ridiculous. That is how you learn how to defend attacks, there is an attack and there is a defense for it. Same with jiu jitsu or any fighting it is all situational and you train by being in those situations and practice the attacks and counters. Still getting hit or taken down is inevitable no matter who you are or how long you train.

I think were the difference lies is in that particular aspect of training and to what degree and individual can understand the moves and use them at the right time and set the opponent up so you can land the big strikes etc… This area is where I feel most TMA’s are a let down.
I see no problem with “beardo” telling someone when you see this strike use this defense that is how everyone trains. Weather the technique is effective or not is another question however

115

[quote]humble wrote:
the mystique and grandeur of tma’s is mythology at best is what I’m getting at and snake oil hucksterism at worst.
It’s a hocus pocus bunch of movements put together to create an aura that never existed that westerners get caught by hook, line and sinker.

Look at poor old grandmaster in the video, body slammed when choreography went out the window.

Look at beardo talk about “if you do this move, I do this move” choreographed bullshit. Seriously.[/quote]

First of I’ll I’d just like to say that your opinion is pretty reasonable given the evidence, although obviously I disagree with you. I have to ask though, since you are obviously a very good kick boxer in a country where kick boxing is serious business: Do you think that a kick boxer that doesn’t know any ground fighting, is much better off against a good grappler than a kung fu expert who doesn’t know any ground fighting? From what I’ve seen a champion boxer on his back is not much better off than a tkd champion, muay thai champion, or a kung fu fighter.

116

[quote]Whelanj wrote:
Brain cancer! That is by far the shittiest news I’ve heard all year!
[/quote]

Yeah, I know.

Interesting information. Thanks for sharing that. Does sort of explain why there aren’t any top notch Chinese MMA fighters.

The liver punches I could definitely see working. Obviously strikes to the liver have a lot of evidence to back up their effectiveness and counter striking someone while they throw a jab at you is certainly in keeping with the law of time. The takedown though I’m a little skeptical of, at least his ability to do it against a decent boxer or kickboxer/Muay Thai fighter.

Seeing a well thrown, non telegraphed jab, recognizing it, selecting that takedown move, and executing it in time to be able to move your whole body around it into position like that and be able to disrupt someone’s balance (in the opposite direction that their force is going) is a pretty far fetched application of that technique IME. Heck, even being able to pull off something like a parry, slip (which only moves a portion of your body), catch, snap back, or “shield”/cover in time is pretty tough. Trying to move your whole body around such a technique would be nearly superhuman, unless it is either poorly executed or telegraphed.

Well at least it seems like he’s willing to try to work from positions other than just standing.

Can I just ask how hard you guys were going in that video? It looked to me as if you were either instructed to not make contact, or perhaps just make very light contact. It also looked like you both were kind of holding back, but maybe that perception is wrong.

Couple of tips for you:

  1. Keep your chin DOWN! If you try to spar like this against anyone who remotely knows what they’re doing you’re going to get KO’d. This is something that is (at least should be) taught pretty much from day 1 in good boxing gyms, and good kickboxing gyms but very few Martial Artists seem to get right. With your chin down, not only is it harder to hit, but your head and neck is in a more stable position for absorbing impact.

  2. Don’t lean back when you throw your punches. This breaks the “power line” from the ground and results in purely arm punching. Your shoulders should always be at least slightly in front of your hips/torso angled slightly in the direction of power when punching. It also makes it much easier for you to be taken down or overpowered backwards.

  3. Don’t leave your punches hanging out (“waiting for an autograph”) away from your body at the end. When your arms are away from your body you have exposed certain targets (especially your body) to counter strikes, put yourself in a position where someone might get in under your arms and clinch you/take you down/hit your with short range strikes like hooks, uppercuts, and “45’s”, and you will inevitably have to retract that hand to throw another punch with it anyway (which will telegraph your punch, or result in very little power if you don’t retract first). Your hands should start in your guard (I recommend them being on the sides of your chin or cheek bones, but some people can get away with other guard positions), go straight to the target, and then come back to your guard just as fast as they went out every time. If you are going to double or triple up something like a jab then you can only come back half way before firing again, but at the end you always want to come back to your guard.

  4. Learn to use angles. Everything you guys did in that video was straight forwards or straight back. This is pretty common in beginners and again seems to be very common in MA other than boxing and/or kickboxing. Angles however allow you to access targets that might otherwise be unreachable, keep your opponent off balance, and just generally put you in a superior position and them in an inferior position.

117

[quote]Whelanj wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
the mystique and grandeur of tma’s is mythology at best is what I’m getting at and snake oil hucksterism at worst.
It’s a hocus pocus bunch of movements put together to create an aura that never existed that westerners get caught by hook, line and sinker.

Look at poor old grandmaster in the video, body slammed when choreography went out the window.

Look at beardo talk about “if you do this move, I do this move” choreographed bullshit. Seriously.[/quote]

First of I’ll I’d just like to say that your opinion is pretty reasonable given the evidence, although obviously I disagree with you. I have to ask though, since you are obviously a very good kick boxer in a country where kick boxing is serious business: Do you think that a kick boxer that doesn’t know any ground fighting, is much better off against a good grappler than a kung fu expert who doesn’t know any ground fighting? From what I’ve seen a champion boxer on his back is not much better off than a tkd champion, muay thai champion, or a kung fu fighter. [/quote]

This is true, none of those systems you mentioned (boxing, Muay Thai, kickboxing) would prepare someone well for fighting on the ground with a good grappler (wrestler, BJJ fighter, Judoka, etc…). But I think Humble is saying that he thinks the Muay Thai champ would have a better chance of KO’ing the grappler before it hit the ground.

To a point he is right in that if you took every amatuer and professional Muay Thai fighter or boxer out there and every Kung Fu fighter out there and had them all face off against grapplers, you’d probably have a higher percentage of the MT/Boxing fighters KO their grappling opponents than the KF fighters. This is simply due to the fact that MT/Boxers all train full resistance, full contact from very early on in their training careers, continue to do so throughout their training careers, and really focus on just perfecting a handful of techniques.

KF fighters on the other hand have a much more varied style of training. Sure, some may actually train full resistance/full contact, and they would probably do pretty well. Others on the other hand do not and would be crushed. KF is also such a hugely enveloping term that it covers everything from Wing Chun, to Shaolin Long Fist, to Eagle claw, tiger claw, preying mantis, Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, Shaolin 5 animals, Modern Wushu, and the list goes on. Not to mention the “internal”/soft arts like Tai Chi Chuan (Yang, Chen, and Sun styles), Baguazhang, and Hsing Yi. That’s a huge variation of techniques and training styles and not only does that give the KF fighter more techniques to learn and master, but it also means that there isn’t really going to be any type of uniformity or consistency from one KF fighter to the next. Also, many of these fighter systems were specifically designed to defeat other types of KF, and may be relatively useless against other forms of unarmed combat.

So if you just gave me the information of, “ok we have a KF fighter fighting an Olympic wrestler and a Muay Thai fighter fighting that same Olympic wrestler”, and told me I have to bet on one of the non wrestlers to win, which one will it be? I’d put my money on the MT fighter (knowing nothing else about either of them in this case) simply because of the uniformity of MT training and the lack of uniformity of KF training.

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Irish your knickers knot up rather easily don’r they?

Continue on with what you think I may be saying as much as you want so long as it makes you feel better. Your background is self admitted to be 1.5 years of training right?

My background is over 20 years and my first trainer was from a Kung Fu background and to this day I still rate him as the best trainer I ever had.

So what the fuck do I mean by what I’m saying and why are you so confused so easily?

I mean on one hand I’m telling you TMA’s suck ass and on the other I am telling you the best trainer I had was from a TMA background?

You’re rather literal and simple if you think I kickboxed for all that time, had 18 pro fights and sparred with and fought with international opponents all whilst not using any TMA techniques or hating on them.

What I am reffering to is the bullshit presented in the videos that these guys are some super power masters.
They’re not, they just happen to be some snake oil hucksters - one little naive and inexperienced enthusiast overzealously blew away all his life savings in chasing a dream that has a bullshit ending - happened to video tape.

Whelan, I’m not even trying to say one style is better than the other. I’m not even going to attempt to say MT/KB/MMA is the best because they’re all controlled situtions. But what I am saying is those videos are scams and the people in them hucksters.

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[quote]humble wrote:
Whelan, I’m not even trying to say one style is better than the other. I’m not even going to attempt to say MT/KB/MMA is the best because they’re all controlled situtions. But what I am saying is those videos are scams and the people in them hucksters.[/quote]

I think most people are agreeing with this. Its been stated that most TMA’s have great aplications when applied and taught correctly but under the current format of them its not being done correctly for alot of places. You end up with the Jet Li could beat Brock Lesner crowd. I would have believed that when I was 10 but as i got involved in martial arts I learned that to be bs fast.

It was something I always kept my head up for when i would look into learning new styles and also I learned some stuff not for the combat but the mental training it offered. Thats what got me involved in Tai Chi. Didnt think for once it would offer any thing combat based and I got lucky and the sifu there actually taught that side of it and i learned some really cool stuff that works.

There is where I believe almost all the Asian martial arts start losing there combat applications. They market themselves as a work out program not a combat system. However they dont tell the people they are just getting a work out in but tell them they are learning how to fight and teaching these people just enough to get them killed.

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[quote]punchedbear wrote:

There is where I believe almost all the Asian martial arts start losing there combat applications. They market themselves as a work out program not a combat system. However they dont tell the people they are just getting a work out in but tell them they are learning how to fight and teaching these people just enough to get them killed.[/quote]

Boxing and kickboxing and a lot of other styles do this same shit.