Kung Fu Master Baiting

Training
41

[quote]jj-dude wrote:

Oh and the answer you don’t expect out of this: A martial art is a reference book for how things don’t work in the body and busting people. They involve pedagogy (how to teach it) and training information. A good martial art should give you a lot of tactical and strategic information, virtually all of which is useless in a ring. As are most of the techniques, since they can’t be done with a glove on, or rely on sissy moves (like kneecapping someone). It is the training and the accumulated wisdom of the art that makes it work. Bad MMA analysis is to assume that only what works in the ring is real, toss out everything else from a traditional MA, then declare that there really isn’t much to one.

You think something else is the ueber ultimate martial art? Prove it. Take some 80 year old granny and show me how you’d make her kick butt. Pretty much all the challenges to traditional MA I’ve seen (yeah, and a lot of old MAs, I admit, suck too) rely on being an athletic male in your late teens/early 20’s. A lot of the best MMAers are also some of the best conditioned people on the planet. Georges St. Pierre doesn’t need martial arts to kick most people’s asses. So what aside from straight athletic ability makes any MMA or variants superior? Take their techniques and teach them to someone small and frail and you will quickly see that they are no better than a lot of traditional martial arts techniques. If its superiority requires 3 - 4 hours a day at the gym, then it is elitist in nature and all you’ve shown is that someone who could probably win gold at the Olympics is a really awesome athlete. Not quite an amazing statement. (Yeah, I’ve heard lots of people tell me something or other is the greatest then toe the carpet while they mumble about how they really don’t have the time to do it, but they’ll get back to it one of these days.)

– jj[/quote]

I would tend to agree with both these excellent points. I know and am around a fair amount of competitive fighters in MMA right now (one is fighting in Bellator in 2 weeks), including the owner of the gym who is also competitive and a Gracie brown belt. They are great guys, stay out of trouble (except for liking to party a bit lol), and crazy. And all of them that I’ve talked to --we actually just had this conversation again a few days ago–have a great respect for TMA…as it was meant to be taught.

These were guys I expected to shit talk all over it tbh. But they actually really respect the old karate guys. What they have a problem is turning the martial art where you train 6 days a week for 4 hours a day (pretty similar to fight camp isn’t it? Yep) into McDonalds assembly line franchise black belt factories. I totally agree. Some fairly knowledgeable folks about the history of MA there, and the owner himself is one, have a good sense of how really GOOD a karate guy can be (Machida anyone?) if you give him the room to work his own game.

In addition, he recognizes the difference between how they trained 100 years ago and how pussy they train now. Look, you can’t be good at SHIT if you go 2x a week for 2 hours, even if it’s “MMA brah”. They run classes 5 days a week, with the competitors also coming in at noon in addition to being at all classes. That’s what it takes to be good, and that’s how the old guard trained. They know that and they respect it. I’ll be the first to admit that there are a lot of super shitty traditional MAs, and a lot of good ones with super shitty schools. But if THEY respect the old arts for what they actually have to teach (if properly trained) I don’t see why other people can’t as well. I definitely do. It’s a matter of context and practice both in terms of application and in how to think about MAs in general.

There’s a lot more respect to be given to the way things

42

[quote]Josann wrote:

As a guy that turns 58 in 2 days I also think it is important to find a system that one can train over the long haul. For me karate has been it. Crosstraining is a must, and I still try to adapt what I see other styles and systems doing to what I do. The guy in the video has clearly bought into the idea that he is invincible and that his art, chi, or whatever will bail him out in a real confrontation. This happens to a lot of guys when they get older and stop training with resistent opponents. Can’t do that if you want to continue to be any good.

I also find that kata and pre arranged kumite have a place in training and in health. Yeah, I probably wouldn’t feel this way if I was turning 28.And if I was turning 28 I’d be training mma.But, I’m not so I do what I do and train what I can. I’ve found something THAT WORKS FOR ME, and I hope others here who love combat arts can find something as well.[/quote]

Also agree with these points. As a younger guy, I also believe that katas help in training and health. They cannot be the foundation of training, or prepare you for fighting. But they can help drill technique, focus, balance, everything else. I’ve actually found that simple tai chi standing meditation and push hands is great for all of those things, as well as calming your mind and allowing you to sift out all the racing thoughts and bullshit and focus on the PRESENT. However I would never be an idiot and try to fight somebody using push hands or “softness”. But as training tools–within their specific contexts and specific teaching purposes–they’re good.

43

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

I would tend to agree with both these excellent points. I know and am around a fair amount of competitive fighters in MMA right now (one is fighting in Bellator in 2 weeks), including the owner of the gym who is also competitive and a Gracie brown belt. They are great guys, stay out of trouble (except for liking to party a bit lol), and crazy. And all of them that I’ve talked to --we actually just had this conversation again a few days ago–have a great respect for TMA…as it was meant to be taught.

These were guys I expected to shit talk all over it tbh. But they actually really respect the old karate guys. What they have a problem is turning the martial art where you train 6 days a week for 4 hours a day (pretty similar to fight camp isn’t it? Yep) into McDonalds assembly line franchise black belt factories. I totally agree. Some fairly knowledgeable folks about the history of MA there, and the owner himself is one, have a good sense of how really GOOD a karate guy can be (Machida anyone?) if you give him the room to work his own game.

In addition, he recognizes the difference between how they trained 100 years ago and how pussy they train now. Look, you can’t be good at SHIT if you go 2x a week for 2 hours, even if it’s “MMA brah”. They run classes 5 days a week, with the competitors also coming in at noon in addition to being at all classes. That’s what it takes to be good, and that’s how the old guard trained. They know that and they respect it. I’ll be the first to admit that there are a lot of super shitty traditional MAs, and a lot of good ones with super shitty schools. But if THEY respect the old arts for what they actually have to teach (if properly trained) I don’t see why other people can’t as well. I definitely do. It’s a matter of context and practice both in terms of application and in how to think about MAs in general.

There’s a lot more respect to be given to the way things
[/quote]

I always try to make these points as well. The difference in how the current fat American taking karate classes trains, versus how the men who REALLY knew their art trained back in the day, are momentous. They have absolutely nothing in common.

I also point this out when people are quick to compare boxers and wrestlers with karate or other TMA students - look at the difference in the time they’ve spent training! Of course a boxer or wrestler is better, they’ve been training since age eight or nine, nearly every day, with few breaks, and frequent competitions.

If you compare this to someone taking a two times a week class at Tiger Schulman’s, of course the boxer is gonna whip their ass in a ring.

They’ve easily put in the 10,000 hours, while the TMA guy has done maybe a quarter of that over the course of the same amount of years.

And also, a good teacher is much more necessary in the TMA world because there are so many more moves that have been watered down or misunderstood over time. Half the moves that are taught empty handed don’t work, and people wonder why - until they’re told that this particular move was meant to be used while holding a sword, against an armored man on a horse.

In that context, the move works and makes sense. But sensei shit for brains didn’t know that piece of history, and so the move is taught as is, with no context, and then his student is shocked when he got fucked up trying to use it.

By the way this video was very funny to me. The fact that there was a counter to this guy’s grappling move shocked him, but that’s not the problem - there’s a counter for every move out there, and I don’t expect anyone to be infallible or unbeatable in the sparring.

However, it was his refusal to admit that there was a hole in his game that is the ridiculous part. It’s that kind of thinking - that, “I’ve been doing this for YEARS, there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY I could be wrong/outmatched/outmaneuvered here” that has led to losses in fights, losses in sparring, and losses on battlefields.

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.

44

Plagiarized with much love from Wim:

“…it?s not MMA vs. TMAs. That?s like arguing if a hammer is better than a screwdriver. They?re both tools and have their limits/uses. You don?t hear carpenters arguing over which is better, right?
In my opinion and experience, it?s the same with fighting arts. They?re tools and useful in some areas, not so much in others. Pick one you like and know where it works well while not ignoring the weaknesses. Feel free to disagree though, I?m OK with my own choices and you should be with yours. It?s your ass on the line when that crazy maniac swings a tire iron at your head, not mine. :slight_smile:
…
If there is anything missing in the way traditional martial artists view their practice, it?s often just that: a lack of comprehension of what violence entails. Because if they would know just a fraction of what happens out there, they would train a whole lot harder than they do. In contrast, most MMA gyms understand the need for the rough training to prepare a fighter for the Octagon. And that?s where the discord often starts.”

I’ll totally agree with both these: specifically the last paragraph. If TMA guys bothered to put in even 3/4 of the road work and gym time a competitive mma guy put in they’d be waaaay more respectable. They have no idea the shit that’s out there and capable of pouncing on them.

45

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

I would tend to agree with both these excellent points. I know and am around a fair amount of competitive fighters in MMA right now (one is fighting in Bellator in 2 weeks), including the owner of the gym who is also competitive and a Gracie brown belt. They are great guys, stay out of trouble (except for liking to party a bit lol), and crazy. And all of them that I’ve talked to --we actually just had this conversation again a few days ago–have a great respect for TMA…as it was meant to be taught.

These were guys I expected to shit talk all over it tbh. But they actually really respect the old karate guys. What they have a problem is turning the martial art where you train 6 days a week for 4 hours a day (pretty similar to fight camp isn’t it? Yep) into McDonalds assembly line franchise black belt factories. I totally agree. Some fairly knowledgeable folks about the history of MA there, and the owner himself is one, have a good sense of how really GOOD a karate guy can be (Machida anyone?) if you give him the room to work his own game.

In addition, he recognizes the difference between how they trained 100 years ago and how pussy they train now. Look, you can’t be good at SHIT if you go 2x a week for 2 hours, even if it’s “MMA brah”. They run classes 5 days a week, with the competitors also coming in at noon in addition to being at all classes. That’s what it takes to be good, and that’s how the old guard trained. They know that and they respect it. I’ll be the first to admit that there are a lot of super shitty traditional MAs, and a lot of good ones with super shitty schools. But if THEY respect the old arts for what they actually have to teach (if properly trained) I don’t see why other people can’t as well. I definitely do. It’s a matter of context and practice both in terms of application and in how to think about MAs in general.

There’s a lot more respect to be given to the way things
[/quote]

I always try to make these points as well. The difference in how the current fat American taking karate classes trains, versus how the men who REALLY knew their art trained back in the day, are momentous. They have absolutely nothing in common.

I also point this out when people are quick to compare boxers and wrestlers with karate or other TMA students - look at the difference in the time they’ve spent training! Of course a boxer or wrestler is better, they’ve been training since age eight or nine, nearly every day, with few breaks, and frequent competitions.

If you compare this to someone taking a two times a week class at Tiger Schulman’s, of course the boxer is gonna whip their ass in a ring.

They’ve easily put in the 10,000 hours, while the TMA guy has done maybe a quarter of that over the course of the same amount of years.

And also, a good teacher is much more necessary in the TMA world because there are so many more moves that have been watered down or misunderstood over time. Half the moves that are taught empty handed don’t work, and people wonder why - until they’re told that this particular move was meant to be used while holding a sword, against an armored man on a horse.

In that context, the move works and makes sense. But sensei shit for brains didn’t know that piece of history, and so the move is taught as is, with no context, and then his student is shocked when he got fucked up trying to use it.

By the way this video was very funny to me. The fact that there was a counter to this guy’s grappling move shocked him, but that’s not the problem - there’s a counter for every move out there, and I don’t expect anyone to be infallible or unbeatable in the sparring.

However, it was his refusal to admit that there was a hole in his game that is the ridiculous part. It’s that kind of thinking - that, “I’ve been doing this for YEARS, there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY I could be wrong/outmatched/outmaneuvered here” that has led to losses in fights, losses in sparring, and losses on battlefields.

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.[/quote]

Excellent, excellent post. That’s exactly right. And that’s why I have immense respect for the OLD TMA guys (the ones who are mostly dead), and that’s also why the owner of said MMA gym has massive respect for them—he instinctively understands the amount of work required to be good at ANY art whether boxing, wrestling, karate, or kung fu, in terms of the rule of 10,000 hours and the actual hard training violence (“pressure testing” as Wim calls it). And he has a sense of history. Hell, 150/200 years ago you didn’t go to 3 weekly classes if you wanted to learn kung fu or karate—you lived in your masters fucking house and paid him to be his servant/house boy and train 6 days a week for hours on end…then you went to your job at the restaurant, field, house, or wherever it was you went to make enough money to live and eat.

I’ll damn near bet you that even the “bad” martial arts students had far, FAR more hours, intensity, and pressure testing than anybody in TMA now, or for that matter some competitive boxers/fighters (not all by any means). It was reality for them–and by definition it was expected that hard work for years would be required to reap the benefits, not a black belt in 10 months. Doesn’t mean the art itself is worthless, it just means you’re fucking lazy.

Take those same work ethic qualities and put them into weight training, fighting, wrestling, business, or anything else and shockingly enough, you become successful in whatever endeavor you work your ass of day and night for.

Although yeah I will definitely be in agreement with you that it is incredibly important to find the right teacher for TMA because of exactly what you just mentioned in terms of sensei’s not understanding history or their own art…or pressure cooking. Totally agreed.

46

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
You’re talking out your ass

[/quote]

He sure is. That’s his habit. And he’ll keep doing it unless you ignore him. Which I highly, highly advise you to do.

Let it go though. He is not worth your time.[/quote]

I walked away it felt sherdogish.

to continue with the positive here. I agree that the TMA people dont partake in enough hours to properly learn. I can remember starting and seeing guys twice a week when i was there 4 times and felt like I should be more. I was just glad that the sifu of that school wouldnt allow them to go at the same rate as those that did more like i have heard other schools doing.

I believe the reason why boxing gyms work is a good amount of the top schools and coaches dont make much money. so they help the newbies that show the willingness to put in the hours. It takes thousands of hours of pad work, bag work, road work, and sparring to become decent at boxing.

47

Where are you guys getting this idea that the skill level must have been high 150 years ago because they were training all day long? Any evidence? I can walk all day long, that’s not going to make me a better runner.

So a boxer whose been doing it since 8 years old can beat a guy doing kung fu that’s only going 2 to 3 days a week. That’s not a fair comparison. Why not get someone whose been doing kung fu since 8 then and match them up and see what happens? You guys romanticize these TMA too much. You think no one takes them more than a few hours a week?

Aragorn ask what those fighters think of Wing Chun, Aikido, and Kung fu? See if they have the same respect for them. Karate is already pretty respectable in the MMA community. A lot of fighters have taken karate when they were young and became great fighters in MMA. Just because they respect Karate doesn’t mean they respect all TMA. And who cares if they respect it or not. That doesn’t even make it legitimate. Competing legitimizes the art.

48

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh man. What an invigorating argument, the likes of which has never been seen on this forum before!

Be still my heart…

There are many good TMA’s that work just fine. There are many modern martial arts that work just fine. How well they work is dependent TOTALLY on how they are taught, and by whom.

Why is this such a hard concept to understand?
[/quote]

Because it isn’t true. Some styles are inherently flawed. The triple twisting goose spinning sideways back kick just isn’t as good as a left hook.

Edit: How come you don’t come around the PWI threads anymore Irish? Tired of getting your ass handed to you because of your flawed logic and weak arguments? We miss you man…you were such fun to kick around. Glad you showed up here though.

49

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
You’re talking out your ass

[/quote]

He sure is. That’s his habit. And he’ll keep doing it unless you ignore him. Which I highly, highly advise you to do.

ZEB cannot, and will never, understand that streetfighting and ringfighting are two totally different games, and being good in one doesn’t automatically make you good at the other.

Let it go though. He is not worth your time.[/quote]

I fully understand the difference and claim that traditional Kung Fu is inferior in both areas. If you read my posts you might have picked that up. But then again you are who you are and reading comprehension has never come easy for you.

50

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I always try to make these points as well. The difference in how the current fat American taking karate classes trains, versus how the men who REALLY knew their art trained back in the day, are momentous. They have absolutely nothing in common.[/quote]

As if you know how they trained “back in the day.” LOL-- and even if you knew how they trained (which you do not) do you also know how they fought? And do you know who they fought? Stop pretending Irish…it will be hard at first but it’s worth it.

And TMA have never begun training at such a tender age? Please stop pretending irish just stop. Could it be that jumping around and coming close to hitting, but not really hitting your opponent is inferior to actually going full bore on the wrestling mat in practice. Yeah that’s one reason.

[quote]And also, a good teacher is much more necessary in the TMA world because there are so many more moves that have been watered down or misunderstood over time. Half the moves that are taught empty handed don’t work, and people wonder why - until they’re told that this particular move was meant to be used while holding a sword, against an armored man on a horse. In that context, the move works and makes sense. But sensei shit for brains didn’t know that piece of history, and so the move is taught as is, with no context, and then his student is shocked when he got fucked up trying to use it.
[/quote]

Yet, many more reasons that makes my point valid. It’s nice to see that you’ve not lost your flare for poor debate.

[quote]
By the way this video was very funny to me. The fact that there was a counter to this guy’s grappling move shocked him, but that’s not the problem - there’s a counter for every move out there,[/quote]

You probably didn’t bother to view the next few parts to that video. I did, and when the instructor was taken to the cement and fell on his back with a thud he was screaming “I said stop…I said stop.” He alleged that his many “dangerous” techniques would have prevented his opponent from throwing him. It was funny yet pathetic at the same time. Much like many of your posts.

[quote]
However, it was his refusal to admit that there was a hole in his game that is the ridiculous part. It’s that kind of thinking - that, “I’ve been doing this for YEARS, there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY I could be wrong/outmatched/outmaneuvered here” that has led to losses in fights, losses in sparring, and losses on battlefields.

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.[/quote]

Wrong again, it’s inferior techniques along with his attitude which dooms him.

51

[quote]punchedbear wrote:
I agree that the TMA people dont partake in enough hours to properly learn. I can remember starting and seeing guys twice a week when i was there 4 times and felt like I should be more. I was just glad that the sifu of that school wouldnt allow them to go at the same rate as those that did more like i have heard other schools doing.

I believe the reason why boxing gyms work is a good amount of the top schools and coaches dont make much money. so they help the newbies that show the willingness to put in the hours. It takes thousands of hours of pad work, bag work, road work, and sparring to become decent at boxing. [/quote]

Think about what you’re saying. You are in essence saying that all techniques are equal. And the only difference is in how hard they are practiced.

How utterly foolish!

So it doesn’t matter if I take Tae Kwon Do or Boxing, or any other combat art. If I work hard at Tae Kwon Do I will be just as good on the street as if I had studied any other discipline. Or (according to your flawed theory) all disciplines because all techniques (in your world) are equal.

How very silly.

But of course that is the “in” thing to believe acceptance is king…“Yeah man all arts are good it’s all good…everything is good man”

Bull.

52

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Where are you guys getting this idea that the skill level must have been high 150 years ago because they were training all day long? Any evidence? I can walk all day long, that’s not going to make me a better runner.

So a boxer whose been doing it since 8 years old can beat a guy doing kung fu that’s only going 2 to 3 days a week. That’s not a fair comparison. Why not get someone whose been doing kung fu since 8 then and match them up and see what happens? You guys romanticize these TMA too much. You think no one takes them more than a few hours a week?

Aragorn ask what those fighters think of Wing Chun, Aikido, and Kung fu? See if they have the same respect for them. Karate is already pretty respectable in the MMA community. A lot of fighters have taken karate when they were young and became great fighters in MMA. Just because they respect Karate doesn’t mean they respect all TMA. And who cares if they respect it or not. That doesn’t even make it legitimate. Competing legitimizes the art.[/quote]

The walking thing is not a great comparison. what we are saying is alot of these various Kung Fu techniques came about because of wars or local fights. Kind of like different sword fighting schools out of Europe in the middle ages. These schools unlike the swordfighting kinda stuck around or the techniques did but yes evolved into less lethal things as the fights went from hand to hand weapons to guns.

Aikido when it was first formed was very effective. Sadly the man that founded it went all peaceful monk and removed alot of the techniques finding them to violent making it more a philosophy than a fighting style. So ya I will agree there that it isnt an effective martial art because it isnt really a martial art.

53

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
You guys romanticize these TMA too much.[/quote]

Spot on.

54

[quote]punchedbear wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Where are you guys getting this idea that the skill level must have been high 150 years ago because they were training all day long? Any evidence? I can walk all day long, that’s not going to make me a better runner.

So a boxer whose been doing it since 8 years old can beat a guy doing kung fu that’s only going 2 to 3 days a week. That’s not a fair comparison. Why not get someone whose been doing kung fu since 8 then and match them up and see what happens? You guys romanticize these TMA too much. You think no one takes them more than a few hours a week?

Aragorn ask what those fighters think of Wing Chun, Aikido, and Kung fu? See if they have the same respect for them. Karate is already pretty respectable in the MMA community. A lot of fighters have taken karate when they were young and became great fighters in MMA. Just because they respect Karate doesn’t mean they respect all TMA. And who cares if they respect it or not. That doesn’t even make it legitimate. Competing legitimizes the art.[/quote]

The walking thing is not a great comparison. what we are saying is alot of these various Kung Fu techniques came about because of wars or local fights. Kind of like different sword fighting schools out of Europe in the middle ages. These schools unlike the swordfighting kinda stuck around or the techniques did but yes evolved into less lethal things as the fights went from hand to hand weapons to guns.

Aikido when it was first formed was very effective. Sadly the man that founded it went all peaceful monk and removed alot of the techniques finding them to violent making it more a philosophy than a fighting style. So ya I will agree there that it isnt an effective martial art because it isnt really a martial art.[/quote]
Fair enough. I knew it was a bad comparison after typing it. Listen if I practice techniques all day long and never spar. If I compete or fight how am I going to know how to handle distance, get use to reacting to opponents, learn how to move properly and use angles against an opponent, how to hit a moving target? For all we know they just practiced punching the air and kata all day long. No sparring or application.

And the Aikido master removed all his techniques because they were too deadly? According to whom? Did this guy kill a bunch of people with his bare hands? Did he kill anyone with it? This sounds like some McDojo crap. My art is too deadly so I won’t teach the deadly techniques.

What about chi kung? There is a bunch of stuff you can read up on how legitimate this is but there’s no video evidence of it actually working. No knocking guys out with chi or moving things with chi.

The oldest video we have is of 2 martial artists fighting each other from about the 1950s and I’ve posted it here. It’s two guys from 2 different styles both throwing punches from the waist in the exact same manner. It doesn’t look like any martial arts movie. There were no special techniques used. It’s more than likely that the stuff you’ve read about this stuff from 100+ years ago is highly exaggerated and BS.

55

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
And the Aikido master removed all his techniques because they were too deadly? According to whom? Did this guy kill a bunch of people with his bare hands? Did he kill anyone with it? This sounds like some McDojo crap. My art is too deadly so I won’t teach the deadly techniques.[/quote]

I believe it was around WW2 that the inventor of it went all new age hippy on the world. Something about the real purpose of the warrior is to prevent the slaughters not fight in competition so ya that system that was at first pretty effective went to hell fast. He basically made it a philosophy and anyone that tells you its an effective art is not being to truthful seems it turned soft. He didnt kill anyone that I know of with some secret technique but just went hippy after seeing ww2.

56

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I always try to make these points as well. The difference in how the current fat American taking karate classes trains, versus how the men who REALLY knew their art trained back in the day, are momentous. They have absolutely nothing in common.[/quote]

As if you know how they trained “back in the day.” LOL-- and even if you knew how they trained (which you do not) do you also know how they fought? And do you know who they fought? Stop pretending Irish…it will be hard at first but it’s worth it.

And TMA have never begun training at such a tender age? Please stop pretending irish just stop. Could it be that jumping around and coming close to hitting, but not really hitting your opponent is inferior to actually going full bore on the wrestling mat in practice. Yeah that’s one reason.

[quote]And also, a good teacher is much more necessary in the TMA world because there are so many more moves that have been watered down or misunderstood over time. Half the moves that are taught empty handed don’t work, and people wonder why - until they’re told that this particular move was meant to be used while holding a sword, against an armored man on a horse. In that context, the move works and makes sense. But sensei shit for brains didn’t know that piece of history, and so the move is taught as is, with no context, and then his student is shocked when he got fucked up trying to use it.
[/quote]

Yet, many more reasons that makes my point valid. It’s nice to see that you’ve not lost your flare for poor debate.

[quote]
By the way this video was very funny to me. The fact that there was a counter to this guy’s grappling move shocked him, but that’s not the problem - there’s a counter for every move out there,[/quote]

You probably didn’t bother to view the next few parts to that video. I did, and when the instructor was taken to the cement and fell on his back with a thud he was screaming “I said stop…I said stop.” He alleged that his many “dangerous” techniques would have prevented his opponent from throwing him. It was funny yet pathetic at the same time. Much like many of your posts.

[quote]
However, it was his refusal to admit that there was a hole in his game that is the ridiculous part. It’s that kind of thinking - that, “I’ve been doing this for YEARS, there’s NO POSSIBLE WAY I could be wrong/outmatched/outmaneuvered here” that has led to losses in fights, losses in sparring, and losses on battlefields.

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.[/quote]

Wrong again, it’s inferior techniques along with his attitude which dooms him.[/quote]

I’d love to respond to your garbage one line at a time like you do, but frankly I just don’t care enough about what you said, or respect you enough, to do so.

That’s actually kind of the same reason that I don’t post in the PWI forum either - I don’t like or respect you, or most of the people that post there.

I don’t think I can make it much more simple than that… so “bait” someone else with your bullshit.

57

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:
Where are you guys getting this idea that the skill level must have been high 150 years ago because they were training all day long? Any evidence? I can walk all day long, that’s not going to make me a better runner.

So a boxer whose been doing it since 8 years old can beat a guy doing kung fu that’s only going 2 to 3 days a week. That’s not a fair comparison. Why not get someone whose been doing kung fu since 8 then and match them up and see what happens? You guys romanticize these TMA too much. You think no one takes them more than a few hours a week?

Aragorn ask what those fighters think of Wing Chun, Aikido, and Kung fu? See if they have the same respect for them. Karate is already pretty respectable in the MMA community. A lot of fighters have taken karate when they were young and became great fighters in MMA. Just because they respect Karate doesn’t mean they respect all TMA. And who cares if they respect it or not. That doesn’t even make it legitimate. Competing legitimizes the art.[/quote]

Simply put, no, competing doesn’t legitimize it - they were not made for competition. They’re made for unarmed combat, which does not last for 20 minutes like you see in the movies or the ring.

It’s made to hit you once in the throat, punch you once in the stomach, and then stomp on your ribs once your down and move on.

Combatives - those of the Kelly McCann variety - either wouldn’t work, or aren’t legal, in the MMA ring. That doesn’t mean they’re not effective. In a life or death situation, a guy who is proficient in combatives and learned from McCann is going to be every bit as dangerous as a ring fighter, and probably more so because of the knowledge and training he’s received in regards to weapons, improvised and otherwise.

Wing Chun is certainly a respectable art. Aikido has its place, although I’m not a tremendous fan of soft styles, and Kung fu can be just as useful.

You can see in the video that the master generates a LOT of force with his strikes, even the light slaps. That’s years of training and mastery that is letting him do that - that’s not faked for the video, and it can definitely be used to great affect in a real fight. It’s especially good as a deterrent - as in, “this old man slapped my hand away and it feels like I got a deadarm… maybe I won’t rob this particular guy.”

TMA’s were not made for rings. They were made for the short, sharp encounters that occur in real life situations, and they rely just as heavily on principles as they do the particular moves. I’ve used things from TMA’s in real life, and the concepts do work.

58

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.

Wrong again, it’s inferior techniques along with his attitude which doom him.

I’d love to respond to your garbage one line at a time like you do…[/quote]

But you have not yet mastered the quote function and it stresses you out when you try to use it. Understood, and expected.

I bet you don’t like or respect many of us since we’ve all eaten your lunch when you pop over and try to impress us with your political knowledge and over all world views. Unfortunately, it always comes out in illogical arguments and partial truths. But, hey you’ve found a home right here and I suspect it’s where you belong. Pushing around 18 year old posters and letting them know how bad you are. Forget who you’re talking to Irish? I know why you really don’t stop in anymore.

I think you have it backwards. You came onto this thread uttering your stupidity in my direction. And if you take just a second to think about it you are usually the one who initiates the discussion between the two of us and it’s always negative. All I’ve done is respond. And as usual, you don’t like it. My suggestion is to either grow a thicker skin or learn some manners. Barring those two unlikely occurrences I have a final piece of advice for you. I know you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even you should be able to realize that if you don’t like what I have to say to you don’t talk to me.

59

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Oh man. What an invigorating argument, the likes of which has never been seen on this forum before!

Be still my heart…

There are many good TMA’s that work just fine. There are many modern martial arts that work just fine. How well they work is dependent TOTALLY on how they are taught, and by whom.

Why is this such a hard concept to understand?
[/quote]

Because it isn’t true. Some styles are inherently flawed. The triple twisting goose spinning sideways back kick just isn’t as good as a left hook.
[/quote]

I’d go along with that.

History lesson (because I’m one of the few that can do it). One of the systems I did was called MusÅ? Jikiden Eishin-ryÅ«. (Don’t get a chance to do it much any more though.) This is a genuine authentic sword system and yes it is pretty awesome. Course anything that involves live 2 1/2 foot long razor blades and armor is going to be awesome. If you were a samurai, you were required to be in training just in case the Emperor required you to fight.

Now once the Tokugawas took Japan over (early 1600’s) and slammed the door shut, most samurai became hereditary bureaucrats, but still had a training requirement. Many systems were started for these office workers, mostly some form of Iaido. A lot of those systems have flashy, funky movements and not much other than very elaborate drawing and resheathing of the sword. And yes, many of them can point to 300 year long histories too.

Having a system that gets a wide swath of rather lukewarm practitioners just dilutes it until it becomes pretty much too watered down for any purpose. This is an effect that is seen in any undertaking that requires skill, not just MMA, TMA or public school Science classes. The larger discussion is how quality can be maintained and how can it be transmitted.

Many older TMAs, as I said, are acutely aware of how hard it is to keep good quality techniques around and are more than happy to train someone who is a good teacher, but otherwise ineffective. Think about that. In a society with no education system to speak of, you have to also train the people to support your system’s longevity.

So you have lousy people who pay the bills (and want to train with you to get some of your cred), mediocre people who are staffing it, mediocre people who used to be good in it and have had their training lapse (e.g. due to age, injuries), people who understand how to coach it and finally you have people that can actually really do it to a high level.

MMA is gradually evolving in this direction because it is the best way to sustain such a system, short of some state-run national school system (think about the dismal level of public school teachers if you want to see how well that paradigm works for education.) Systems that have longevity had some niche, be it training the indolent nobility, keeping office workers active, security/body guarding or maybe even churning out people who can fight wars (which is distinctly different from civilian self defense).

If someone tells me “X” about TMAs generally I give them the benefit of a doubt, since there really are some fine old ones out there along with all the trash. They are often unwittingly preserving some very good stuff, because the systems are designed to keep it “just in case” and it must weather a generation or two of poor management from time to time.

And this doesn’t even get into the more recent Western rise of recreational combat sports (dating mostly post WW II) of which the Kung Fu schools, then later various types of Karate and now MMA are the result. Most of these don’t have a clear idea of their purpose aside from something or other in a ring and therefore have no clear cut way of vetting the ideas they run into.

They are willing to take from everywhere, but often treat older TMAs much the way a consumer treats a supermarket. It is therefore incumbent upon them to show the merit of what they do. I’m not just being a grumpy old dude. I realize that the downside of being a MA instructor is that your students might actually believe you and get beaten, shot or raped for listening to you… There are no standards in MA for instruction or merit.

– jj

60

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

That denial, and that denial alone, is why that man is no true master in my book.

Wrong again, it’s inferior techniques along with his attitude which doom him.

I’d love to respond to your garbage one line at a time like you do…[/quote]

But you have not yet mastered the quote function and it stresses you out when you try to use it. Understood, and expected.

I bet you don’t like or respect many of us since we’ve all eaten your lunch when you pop over and try to impress us with your political knowledge and over all world views. Unfortunately, it always comes out in illogical arguments and partial truths. But, hey you’ve found a home right here and I suspect it’s where you belong. Pushing around 18 year old posters and letting them know how bad you are. Forget who you’re talking to Irish? I know why you really don’t stop in anymore.

I think you have it backwards. You came onto this thread uttering your stupidity in my direction. And if you take just a second to think about it you are usually the one who initiates the discussion between the two of us and it’s always negative. All I’ve done is respond. And as usual, you don’t like it. My suggestion is to either grow a thicker skin or learn some manners. Barring those two unlikely occurrences I have a final piece of advice for you. I know you’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even you should be able to realize that if you don’t like what I have to say to you don’t talk to me.

[/quote]

Zeb - You know my answer to you is going to be plainly to fuck yourself. The days of your miserable condescending tone getting me anywhere near pissed are gone. Hell, you may even be the first person I put on the block list because this incessant trolling you do.

I’ll respond to others with questions or points in this thread, but not you.