Knife Control

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
103

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

But in seriousness, so, what is the justification for disallowing guns in courtrooms?

It’s definitely not that a courtroom “can be equipped so that NO one gets in with a weapon,” because that sentence isn’t true.[/quote]

I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun breaks down when we are talking about courtrooms. Sure they can esaily be equipped to make sure nobody enters with a weapon, but why do you need to? If everyone is a big boy/girl and capable of responsible gun ownership, why does that fly out the window when they enter a courtroom?

[/quote]

Indeed.

What is it about a courtroom that is different from anywhere else?

People get guns into courtrooms. People kill people in courtrooms. There are bad guys in courtrooms, and we’re told time and again that instead of keeping guns out of bad guys’ hands, the real solution is to simply put them in good guys’ hands.

So, what exactly is the justification for this revocation of my Second Amendment right that Push is pushing? And in the very epicenter of legal and constitutional authority no less.[/quote]

To youe broader point, of course it is to our–everybody’s–advantage to keep bad guys from getting guns. The problem as you well know is that the same deterents that are mostly effective for “good guys” are not very effective at all for bad guys. That is, in fact, why they are called “bad”. But regardless of that, it’s not an either/or situation–and you know that too. The best solution is BOTH getting guns away from as many bad guys as we can and as arming as many good guys as want to be with both weapons and lots of freedom. This either/or is a false dichotomy, which you know because given the human condition a) you will never be able to keep all bad people from getting guns, especially in a country with over 200 million in circulation and b) you cannot realistically expect to find all 200 million guns in this country (leaving aside the principled argument which is much more important).

As to the other direct question, i am leaving that for others’ opinions for now. I would be inclined to say it is something along the lines of making sure the “rule of law” is respected from both vigilante justice and circumvention by armed criminals and cartels. Neither of which really apply to the campus argument but that wasn’t really your point anyway.

104

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

…Now, I don’t believe that a courtroom and a college campus are directly analogous here…

[/quote]

This is becoming a habit with you: drawing what are clearly analogies to make your point but then back peddling and trying to convince people of some intellectual acumen that you weren’t really being analogous. Who is it you think you’re fooling with this tactic?[/quote]

If you quote literally half of a thought, as you have here, it might look that way.

When I said “not directly analogous,” I meant exactly that: not directly analogous. As in, a courtroom is volatile in a way that the average college campus on the average Tuesday could never dream of being. As in, not analogous in magnitude.

However, as I said, I believe that a college campus is far more like a courtroom than most people would imagine, regarding of course these salient characteristics.

That was manifestly clear and not even one small bit intellectually dishonest. Complexity and guile are not synonymous, just as simplicity and correctness are sometimes mutually exclusive attributes.

105

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

Exactly: the right to bear arms can be temporarily and circumstantially revoked under certain circumstances…

[/quote]

Who would EVER dispute this?

Our other rights can also be temporarily and circumstantially revoked under certain circumstances. C’mon man, we all know this.
[/quote]

Indeed.

And many universities believe that in the particulars of their situations, these circumstances are met.

I agree with them.

106

^^ As in, analogous in in kind but not in magnitude. Not, in other words, directly so.

You may agree or disagree, but don’t accuse me of intellectual dishonesty here because I am making this argument in good faith.

By the way Push, you say it’s “becoming a habit.” I would love to see another example of this, or, actually, just an example: another implies that I’ve done it here, and I haven’t.

107

Never in my life, would I imagine someone try to make a parallel between a court room and a dorm room.

In the former, a hearing or judgment regarding the law or breaking of the law happens. With the latter, brings with it a drunken stupor, where guys are trying to get laid or sober up between classes.

SMH, if you please, could you help me broaden my horizons with your theory ?

Keep in mind, the last time I was in a dorm room, was when I received a call to come pick up our linebacker who was passed out in the bushes of a frat house, covered in his own vomit.

108

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Never in my life, would I imagine someone try to make a parallel between a court room and a dorm room.

In the former, a hearing or judgment regarding the law or breaking of the law happens. With the latter, brings with it a drunken stupor, where guys are trying to get laid or sober up between classes.

SMH, if you please, could you help me broaden my horizons with your theory ?

Keep in mind, the last time I was in a dorm room, was when I received a call to come pick up our linebacker who was passed out in the bushes of a frat house, covered in his own vomit. [/quote]

They aren’t analogous in magnitude, but I believe they are to some extent analogous in kind.

In short, dorms are simply so full of grossly irresponsible idiots and ridiculously immature kids that, were I in charge of one, I would ban guns unless prohibited by law to do so.

109

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
.[/quote]

Of course, this is only slightly melodramatic with little parallels to reality.

110

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
.[/quote]

Of course, this is only slightly melodramatic with little parallels to reality.[/quote]

If we’re talking whether or not college kids should be allowed to keep guns in their room, and somebody’s posting pictures of Nazis, melodramatic is a very generous understatement.

111

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
.[/quote]

Of course, this is only slightly melodramatic with little parallels to reality.[/quote]

If we’re talking whether or not college kids should be allowed to keep guns in their room, and somebody’s posting pictures of Nazis, melodramatic is a very generous understatement.[/quote]

Clearly, not allowing drunken, sex crazed coeds access to firearms while they reside in university housing is totally analogous to the actions of the Schutzstaffel, especially the infamous Totenkopfverbaende responsible for administering the concentration camps for the Third Reich.

112

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed.

113

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed. [/quote]

That was a tongue in cheek statement…the real meat of it, which Push chose to ignore in favor of taking SMH’s statement out of context in order to chide him, was the fact that even adamant second amendment types are more than willing to give up their guns to enter court which logic dictates is chock full of bad guys…

114

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

…Now, I don’t believe that a courtroom and a college campus are directly analogous here…

[/quote]

This is becoming a habit with you: drawing what are clearly analogies to make your point but then back peddling and trying to convince people of some intellectual acumen that you weren’t really being analogous. Who is it you think you’re fooling with this tactic?[/quote]

It may have just looked like he was back pedaling to you because you were so busy side stepping the “meat and potatoes” of the argument…

115

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed. [/quote]

That was a tongue in cheek statement…[/quote]

Oh.

Makes more sense that way.

116

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed. [/quote]

That was a tongue in cheek statement…the real meat of it, which Push chose to ignore in favor of taking SMH’s statement out of context in order to chide him, was the fact that even adamant second amendment types are more than willing to give up their guns to enter court which logic dictates is chock full of bad guys…
[/quote]

And, though it is difficult, these bad guys find ways of coming in armed.

The point is this: people who are fanatically pro-gun love to pretend that anytime there’s the possibility, however small, that a “bad guy” might be able to “get them,” then they are entitled to arm themselves.

This is not always true.

As Push believes, it is not true of a courtroom.

I don’t believe it’s true of a college campus.

Both he and I have made the subjective decision that the benefits of allowing guns in courts and universities, respectively, are outweighed by the dangers.

But, apparently, only one of our subjective preferences smacks of the Kristallnacht.

Edit: one difference, for what it’s worth, is that affiliation with a university is entirely voluntary, whereas court is not.

118

[quote]pushharder wrote:
And you continue to draw the analogy after saying you had no intention of doing so.[/quote]

Stop playing dumb. You know exactly what I said and exactly what I meant.

119

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed. [/quote]

That was a tongue in cheek statement…the real meat of it, which Push chose to ignore in favor of taking SMH’s statement out of context in order to chide him, was the fact that even adamant second amendment types are more than willing to give up their guns to enter court which logic dictates is chock full of bad guys…
[/quote]

I don’t know if anyone is “more than willing” to give up their guns to enter court, but what’s the alternative? Not show up and have a failure to appear or contempt of court warrant issued for you?

Courthouses(at least the ones I have been in) are also secure(as much as anywhere-inmates obtain weapons in prison, so it’s hard to say anything is truly secure) facilities.

That said, I don’t necessarily agree with prohibiting weapons in court.

120

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
I just question why the talking point…err…excuse me, “LOGIC”, that everyone is safer when err’body gotta gun
[/quote]

Seems to me this is either fact or fiction, not a talking point or logical reasoning to an inconclusive end.

I believe there are stats out their that prove that either everyone is or isn’t safer when the population is armed. [/quote]

That was a tongue in cheek statement…the real meat of it, which Push chose to ignore in favor of taking SMH’s statement out of context in order to chide him, was the fact that even adamant second amendment types are more than willing to give up their guns to enter court which logic dictates is chock full of bad guys…
[/quote]

I don’t know if anyone is “more than willing” to give up their guns to enter court, but what’s the alternative? Not show up and have a failure to appear or contempt of court warrant issued for you?

Courthouses(at least the ones I have been in) are also secure(as much as anywhere-inmates obtain weapons in prison, so it’s hard to say anything is truly secure) facilities.

That said, I don’t necessarily agree with prohibiting weapons in court.[/quote]

I think they should be prohibited. The Judge and Jury need to be not biased, and if someone has a gun and can shoot you if you rule the wrong way. The jury is no longer unbiased.