Definitely. Even then they aren’t necessary, you need to practice perfect (or as close as possible) technique to get better, grinding out sloppy reps will only get you so far.
Something like the Hepburn method, as jbackos said, or even 5x5 would be a much better idea.
Did way too much grinding in the old linear periodization days. I would go to meets and try to feel my way through a squat. Now at my recent comeback meet I no longer had to think. The weight just seemed to move in a groove all on its own.
Submax work with perfect form and compensatory acceleration is where it’s at. Maybe not AMRAPs but higher RPE work can be used to practice maintaining form and preventing breakdown.
Peak is for getting used to higher percentages of 1RM so no need in other training phases.
Once you know how grinding out 95-100% feels then you don’t need to practice it.
I used to do lots of hard, grinding sets, right now most of what I’m doing is working up to a heavy single (like 90-95%) and then doing lighter low rep down sets, mostly between 70-80%. After that it’s rep work on variations of the main lifts or other assistance exercises. My squat in particular seems to be doing well with this method. I find that doing AMRAP sets or even stuff like a 5rm doesn’t really carry over to your 1rm that well, not only because of technique breakdown but because it teaches you to conserve energy for the following reps. You want to apply maximum force to every rep, there is no endurance component to a max lift.
Of course I’m not going to do heavy singles all the time or I will burn out, after two or three months of that I will go back to sets of 3-5 on the main lifts with more moderate weight (75-85%) and higher rep assistance.
I agree about the submaximal work and compensatory acceleration, but whether or not you need to do a lot of high RPE work seems to vary from person to person. Beginners would be better off doing low rep, low rpe work and getting lots of volume to develop their technique, I wish I had done that when I started, but lots of more advanced lifters do well with Sheiko-type programs where there is basically no work over 8rpe. I know a guy who is coached by Bryce Lewis, his training is similar to that but he does an AMRAP set once in each training block to gauge progress, he totalled around 1800 at 120kg a few months ago. Some people just respond better to certain things.
And as for not practicing lifts with 95-100%, you definitely don’t need to max out in training but there are plenty of lifters who do singles over 90% on a regular basis and get good results. You can’t really say that such and such doesn’t work or is unnecessary when there are plenty of people with results showing the complete opposite, but in the case of the OP it’s definitely not the way to go right now.
Damn guys, I was really excited for my Wendler odyssey. I tried 531 a few months ago and stopped for some reason I don’t even know. I really enjoy the program.
I hugely appreciate the advice on the Hepburn method, and it looks interesting. Is it okay if I do some reading around then make a decision? Although truth be told I think I’m going to end up doing the stupid thing and 351ing it. Especially considering the dedicated log I put up.
I hope you guys don’t start thinking I’m one of those jackshit newbies who acts like he knows it all, because I obviously dont know squat (ha).
You guys are probably right, but 531 is a program i strongly believe in
As a beginner what you need is:
A: Mass (sorry I hate the pretentious term Hypertrophy, I’m an old fuck)
B: Skill. Skill and technique/timing will be learned best by not taking sets into fatigue territory. Basically a high number of sets of low reps (1-3) and maybe 5’s on a second day at 80% of day 1.
What I gave you is a Hepburn Method of progression. His actual program is more like this
5 singles followed by 5 x 5 starting with your 10RM. You would do your squat singles, then bench singles, then squat 5’s, then bench 5’s twice a week (M, F) with Deadlift on Wed. That would take three hours of gym time and would bury you.
Whatever you follow, follow it to the letter. As a beginner don’t try to set up your own program You are still clueless.
Definitely man. Made this mistake already.
Is this what you were talking about?
Do you think I could do conditioning Wednesdays and Saturdays? It’s something I don’t want to ignore and one of the reasons I’m keen on 531
Also, to be fair, I don’t want to be accused of or guilty of program hopping, seeing as I’ve made a big deal about “351 for 6 months” over on my log
Also there is Spinal Tap: 3’s Pro in Beyond. Basically just spinal tap but all triples.
Honestly, I’m a fanboy but I’m trying to be open
I don’t even know how to respond to this
Just do something that is appropriate for your level - a beginner program with a decent amount of volume and no AMRAP sets.
I just took a look at your training log to see what is really going on here, I see that you are going to do 5x5 FSL which is actually a very good idea if you are going to do 5/3/1. Or 3/5/1/ or whatever the fuck. But something else you could consider instead of AMRAP sets is what Wendler calls 5’s progression. It’s in the “beyond” book, which it sounds like you have, and the idea is to do sets of 5 on all your work sets and if it’s going well you can continue working up in 10% jumps for more sets of 5. I would also recommend stopping short of 5 reps if your form starts to fall apart.
Another thing, which you probably weren’t planning to do, is that you should squat and bench at least twice a week. Once a week frequency is the bare minimum, if you need to work on technique then more frequent practice is a great way to go. Deadlifting twice a week is not a bad idea either, but that is the one lift that usually does well with low frequency anyway. I’m sure Wendler has a template for that, otherwise I could make some suggestions.
Yeah. The plan was to do 351 (531 with weeks 1 and 2 swapped around. In forever Jim seems to believe this was better for recovery, which makes sense), then what I think jim calls “opposite FSL”, which would basically be deadlifts on squat days and vice versa and press on bench days and vice versa.
I know 5s PRO and Jim even reccommends it for beginner lifters in both beyond and forever, but I wanted to do the AMRAPs because they’re kinda fun. That being said it’s pretty easy to just stick to 5s PRO
@jbackos I’ve done some reading on that Hepburn 8x2 program and it does look good, but I’m personally sort of wary about the lack of pulling. The program I found was basically:
Monday: Squat and Bench
Tuesday: Press and DL
Wednesday: OFF
Thursday: Squat and Bench
Friday: Press and DL
Sat/Sun: OFF
They all say no more assistance, but I really think it needs some rows or pull-ups or something between pushing sets
There are various versions of the Hepburn method, I found a pdf version of one of his books somewhere online but my computer died since. At some point he stopped doing the “pump” sets after the heavier work, and there are other progression methods where rather than adding reps you add sets. You would either work with triples or singles, start with 4 sets and add a set each workout until you reach 10 then add weight. The template in that book had squat and deadlift on one day and bench and press on the other, assistance work was barbell rows and curls. The problem I see with that is that you would be pretty tired after doing 10 fairly heavy singles or triples and your deadlift would suffer, but I suppose you would adjust to it. Or just cap it at 8 sets.
Someone told me that smoking crack was kinda fun. I’m still not doing it.
That’s one thing I disagree on with Wendler. Maybe I’m nobody and he’s famous, but name one elite powerlifter who trains like that. It’s likely a good idea to do some sort of external rotation work to keep your shoulders healthy and strong lats are certainly useful, but that kind of thing is going to take away from your bench training. This is powerlifting, nobody cares how many chin-ups you can do or how much you can row.
Personally I’m more concerned with overall shoulder and elbow health than the way my back looks (it looks decent with just Deadlifts and cleans), so Face Pulls and Band Pull-Aparts are on the menu.
Meh, lots of people do SFA and end up with busted up joints. May as well have an outstanding back to show for it.
What’s SFA?
Okay so getting kind of sick of beating this Hepburn drum, but I don’t really see any reason not to do it, as I get my stubbornness in check.
One question, is conditioning twice a week a no-go?
Mon: SQ, BP
Tues: DL, Press
Wed: Hill Sprints
Thurs: SQ, BP
Fri: DL, Press
Sat: EMOM Cleans or Complexes
Sun: OFF
To be honest, this does look like a lot of lower body volume, but the program does come from a strongman so there has to be some way to fit accessory stuff (conditioning in place of events training) into this program, right?