Kick 'em While They're Down

Update on the research for Jack:

Dude. You would not believe how friggin’ hard this is right now. My brain hurts. I thought about emailing some gay rights organizations and whatnot, but really: do you care that much? Because I will if you do. I’m just not finding what you asked for right now, man.

I also respect that you are indomitably firm in your faith… I think that’s cool. If you want to know where I’m coming from, just take that grip that you have on your beliefs, and think “what if I was atheist?” That’s me. Ain’t nothing gonna change your mind about your beliefs, right? Same here.

Now the tricky part is, even with those intrinsic differences, can folks like you and me get along in this life? You betcha. That’s where I have my faith, buddy. :slight_smile:

I’ve been lurking in this forum for a while now, and I finally had to join in order to reply to these statements.

[quote]folly wrote:
Creationism hasn’t been disproven. Lots of theories, sure, but the missing links are still missing. Remember that Darwin retracted his writings, and that Einstein actually purposefully introduced a flaw into his theories (the cosmological constant) because he couldn’t get them to work otherwise. There was this missing piece that he couldn’t explain. Might read some Gerald Schroeder. Great stuff. He wrote “The Science of God”. He is both a Christian and a Scientist. At the SAME TIME. :slight_smile:

-folly[/quote]

Ignoring the fact that something not having been disproven is nowhere near an adequate reason to believe in it…and what should be the obvious logical flaw in the idea of so-called missing links proving anything…I will address the factually incorrect statements that were made which no one else commented on.

First off, Darwin. Produce these supposed retractions. Retractions of what exactly? Of his personal account of his detailed observations of the natural world and the mechanism that he proposed in order to explain his findings? The story that Darwin recanted his scientific views on his deathbed is a widely recognized falsehood. It was originally spread by a woman named Lady Hope shortly after Darwin’s death. Darwin’s daughter Henrietta, who was with her father during the last days of his illness, later made a statement that at no time had this woman visited her father during any part of his illness and that he had likely never met her at all. Regardless, even if this widely acknowledged falsehood were true, the truth or untruth of evolution does not rest upon the authority of one man (or many men) but upon the evidence.

Now, on to Albert Einstein. This is of particular interest to me as it shows a total lack of understanding with regard to the theory, what the cosmological constant was, and its purpose. Plus, I have a physics degree, and I hate seeing stuff like this. Einstein’s theory of general relativity worked perfectly fine without a cosmological constant. The problem that Einstein had with this was that the only possible solutions to the equations of GR described a universe that was in fact expanding. At the time, the prevailing cosmological theory was that of a static universe, and Einstein had no reason (other than this unexpected result of his theoretical work) to doubt the static model. So, in order to keep the universe static, Einstein introduced a new term into the equations…the cosmological constant. This allowed a solution with a static universe depending on the value of the constant. Of course, later when George Lemaitre solved Einstein’s equations and proposed a model for an expanding universe that started from an initial singularity…and that theory eventually came to have strong evidence in support of it…Einstein called the cosmological constant the greatest mistake of his life.

There was no flaw, there was not something he couldn’t explain…Einstein missed a golden opportunity to be even more revolutionary then he was already being and turn ALL of cosmology on its head, but he couldn’t let go of the established ideas and so it was left for others to accomplish over a decade later.

In closing, being a Christian and a scientist at the same time is no huge feat. There are plenty of people who pull it off every day. Perhaps you should consider reading something by Einstein, or Darwin…

Let me first state that I am NOT a Roman Catholic. I refuse to substantiate the authority of any Pope as a religious authority since the Franks conquered Rome in the 9th century.

That being said, I find it ridiculous how people attempt to justify their criticism of the Bible and of the Christian faith. We are all men and we ALL fall into sin; whether we’re atheists, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, etc. People from every religion, whether mainstream or otherwise, have partaken in evil deeds (whether they admit to it or not is a different story). It’s our repentance from sin and a lifestyle congruent with such repentance that Christianity preaches. Christianity is a therapeutic faith which heals the soul from it’s dismal condition. The pre-Christian prophet St. John the Forerunner preached in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” Likewise, when Jesus Christ entered a village He’d exclaim this same phrase. Most unbelievers remain clueless about why there’s a dire need for repentance. Believers, on the other hand, acknowledge that we’re polluted with sin and need to be spiritually cleansed.

Repentance is a form of therapy which brings about our spiritual regeneration. Other forms of therapies such as fasting and prayer, participating in confession, partaking of the Eucharist, as well as all the other sacraments have a mystically profound effect on the soul. These therapies, available to every believer, delivered by Christ and His Church are like medicines which a doctor or hospital would prescribe to an ill-stricken patient. Christ is the Physician and the Church is our hospital. All of us are in need of a spiritual hospital because we exist in a fallen condition. As Christ said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Someone may mock this viewpoint but consider this. Just as an alcoholic who’s in denial about his drinking habits - he’ll keep arguing about how he doesn’t need AA meetings, to quit drinking, or utilize any form of therapy because he’s just fine exactly the way he is. At the same time, another individual may suffer from the same malady but realize they have a serious problem and will actively fight to change his ways & habits.

The former would prefer to rot away in a decaying state rather than admit to being addicted to something unhealthy and oblige himself to work towards change. Nobody enjoys a condemning conscience so fighting the preliminary onset of guilt is a natural defense mechanism. Sad part is that if he deceives himself long enough, he’ll succeed in solidly tricking himself that he isn’t engaging in an unhealthy lifestyle. So it is with unbelievers and sin.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/page6.htm
to be continued…

stellar: Thanks for your viewpoint. I’ll not mock you, but I would like to add that there are a lot of people just like me who don’t feel like we’re “stained” with sin. I’m not rotting away inside. In fact, I have a pretty cheery outlook on life despite the setbacks and tragedy I witness every day at work. I don’t despair of the problems which swirl around me and through my life. I don’t need to feel “cleansed” by any belief system such as Christianity when I can just go outside in the evening and watch the sunset. This world is a beautiful place when you want to see it that way. It is also dismal and awful if you want to see it that way.

The choice is up to the individual. Am I in denial here, like the alcoholic? Maybe, from your point of view, I am.

Maybe… I’m just not scared. You don’t need faith or religion to have hope, my friend.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Update on the research for Jack:

Dude. You would not believe how friggin’ hard this is right now. My brain hurts. I thought about emailing some gay rights organizations and whatnot, but really: do you care that much? Because I will if you do. I’m just not finding what you asked for right now, man.

I also respect that you are indomitably firm in your faith… I think that’s cool. If you want to know where I’m coming from, just take that grip that you have on your beliefs, and think “what if I was atheist?” That’s me. Ain’t nothing gonna change your mind about your beliefs, right? Same here.

Now the tricky part is, even with those intrinsic differences, can folks like you and me get along in this life? You betcha. That’s where I have my faith, buddy. :)[/quote]

Well, yeah, I do care that much. I don’t think that the Pope said anything that resembled the context you put it in. I have a feeling it was stated differently, or most certainly meant differently.

I don’t judge man, so I get along with all types. Basically, I’m a sinner, and I don’t believe that I’m any better than anyone else. I do hold opinions of people, but I try not to judge them. I can get along with anybody, as long as they’re not a penis wrinkle (which I’ve seen a few of those over the last year or so on this forum). lol… I said, penis wrinkle.

Take it easy,

Jack

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Update on the research for Jack:

Dude. You would not believe how friggin’ hard this is right now. My brain hurts. I thought about emailing some gay rights organizations and whatnot, but really: do you care that much? Because I will if you do. I’m just not finding what you asked for right now, man.

I also respect that you are indomitably firm in your faith… I think that’s cool. If you want to know where I’m coming from, just take that grip that you have on your beliefs, and think “what if I was atheist?” That’s me. Ain’t nothing gonna change your mind about your beliefs, right? Same here.

Now the tricky part is, even with those intrinsic differences, can folks like you and me get along in this life? You betcha. That’s where I have my faith, buddy. :)[/quote]

Thing is here, that you have years of displayed evidence on your side, whereas he has none bar a little book.

this is not your faith, it is truth.

Hey lothario1132,

Remeber the “penis wrinkles” I was talking about? Found one.

Later,

J

[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
Hey lothario1132,

Remeber the “penis wrinkles” I was talking about? Found one.

Later,

J[/quote]

i hope that wasn’t pointed at me.

such petty comments.

In dissagreement, dont rely on name calling. it is uneccessary.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
“Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love.”

I’m sorry christians, and although I respect y’all and y’all’s beliefs, I just cannot wrap my mind around this extremely f’d-up concept.

ZEB, you are the man. You know I respect you. But what we have here is you talking out of your ass on this issue. I won’t draw you into a heated discussion about this yet again… but let me just pipe up with one more thing:

Those AIDS victims loved Jesus and accepted him as their savior (unlike me), which is the most important thing to do with your faith, right? Then the Pope told them – the POPE, mind you – that they were going to hell. That is one mind-blowing thing to do, buddy. This isn’t like some crackpot on a street corner holding a John 3:16 sign, this was the leader of the most powerful and influential christian organization in the world looking them right in the eye and basically saying “y’all are fucked.”

Just because I’m no bible scholar doesn’t mean I can’t see something horrendously wrong with that. It’s not like these people were mass-murderers… in fact, we give absolution to mass-murderers before we fry them, don’t we? So those AIDS victims were doomed because they dared to love someone of the same gender?

I started this post by saying: “Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love…” and I’d like to add: “… as we interpret it.”

That’s the message I get from your religion, guys. Is it any wonder why I don’t buy into it? The way I see it, we’d be better off worshipping the sun. At least that thing exists. And it provides us with energy and light. If it wasn’t for the sun, no life at all could possibly exist here. You want to be thankful for something, there’s a good start.[/quote]

lothario:

Before you go all wild eyed on me, I have to make one point clear.

If the Pope is supposed to uphold the Bible, and the Bible states that you cannot be a homosexual and enter the kingdom of Heaven, then what choice does he have?

In fact, if he embraces homosexuality does he not do a disservice to those people? How is he doing his job otherwise, assuming the Bible is correct?

The message (pure conjecture on my part) the Pope was trying to send was give up your sin life and actually come to Christ. Again, his job!

I do understand your stance on the issue however. It does seem rather heartless from a “worldly view.” Then again if eternity is up for grabs that should trump anything the world has to offer. No?

[quote]miniross wrote:
jackzepplin wrote:
Hey lothario1132,

Remeber the “penis wrinkles” I was talking about? Found one.

Later,

J

i hope that wasn’t pointed at me.

such petty comments.

In dissagreement, dont rely on name calling. it is uneccessary.[/quote]

Petty funny, huh. I’m beginning to form an opinion of you. So far, it’s not favorable. So, yes, that was a jab directed at you. I’m just getting tired of you throwing out your useless “last word”. Seems, to me, that you’re not very objective, so I might take it upon myself to sling a little mud.

Endlessly waiting for your last word,

J

I gotta lighten things up a bit after my last crack…

I decided to look up the passage from Corinthians. It does not mention homosexuals, only “sexual perverts”.This was the KJV, so I don’t know what version your Bible is ZEB. I can’t resist quoting a bumper sticker I see way too often around here: “If it’s not King James, it’s NOT the Bible!”. I’m just screwing with ya ZEB :wink:

But if the KJV is right, what’s a sexual pervert? I don’t consider gays (in general) to be perverts. Screwing a dead horse while your dog watches and licks himself is probably perverted, though. Maybe.

Most of the problem seems to be with the sex act (the sin) rather than just the existence of gays. Would a celibate homosexual go to heaven?

Here’s an article about lesbian parents:
Teenagers raised by lesbian mothers show no developmental differences compared to those brought up by heterosexual parents, according to the first large national study in the US.

Previous research has focused mainly on younger children and found no significant disparities in child welfare between same-sex and heterosexual families.

But few studies have been done on adolescents, who some researchers think may be more prone to - or conscious of - discrimination against their families. Others have speculated whether a teens’ own sexuality is affected by that of their parents.

“There’s been this debate about whether being raised by single-sex couples is good or bad for children,” says Stephen Russell, a sociologist at the University of Arizona in Tucson, US. “We would call into question suggestions that growing up with single-sex parents is somehow problematic.”

12,000 interviews
Russell and colleagues Charlotte Patterson and Jennifer Wainright at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, US, came to this conclusion after sifting through interviews from 1995 with about 12,000 US teenagers and their families. The teens were part of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, the largest and most comprehensive study of the age group in the US.

“This is the best available evidence to date about how adolescent children fare in families with single-sex parents,” Russell told New Scientist.

The researchers found 44 teens being raised by two women in a “marriage-like” relationship. Only six teens reported living with two gay men, so male single-sex families were excluded from the study.

Each teen studied was matched with a counterpart from a heterosexual family, who shared the same sex, age, ethnicity, adoption status and family income, among other factors.

Same-sex attractions
The researchers found no differences between the two groups in terms of depression, anxiety, self-esteem and school grades. Exactly the same proportion of both groups also reported having had sex (34%).

But while a previous study suggested children of gay parents were more likely to consider homosexual relationships, this study was unable to provide such information because so few teens reported same-sex attractions and romances.

The single most important predictor of the teens’ well being, the study showed, was their relationship with parents - regardless of family type. ?What’s really important is the quality of the relationship," Russell told New Scientist.

As a result, the authors write that their findings “provide no justification for limitations on child custody or visitation by lesbian mothers” and “do not support the idea that lesbian and gay adults are less likely than others to provide good adoptive or foster homes”.

Russell says future studies could see how the same group of teens fared in young adulthood.

Journal reference: Child Development (vol 75, p 1886)

As for abstinence only education, here’s an excerpt from a NewScientist article:

But does the abstinence approach work? Do teenagers - a group not renowned for their propensity to do what they are told - take any notice when adults tell them not to have sex?

Proponents of abstinence claim research supports their strategy. But the vast majority of studies that have been done in this area have been small, short-term evaluations without control groups. “There have only been three well-designed trials where an ‘intervention’ group is compared with a control group and participants are tracked over time,” says Kirby.

One of these, published in 1997, looked at a five-session abstinence-only initiative in California. The trial tracked 10,600 teenagers for 17 months (Family Planning Perspectives, vol 29, p 100). The researchers found it had no impact on the sexual behaviour or pregnancy rates of teenagers. The other two studies had similar results. “None of them show that any abstinence-only programmes had any impact on behaviour,” says Kirby.

Although not a controlled trial, one of the largest studies of the effect of abstinence pledges tracked the sex lives of 12,000 US teenagers aged between 12 and 18 (American Journal of Sociology, vol 106, p 859). A group led by Peter Bearman, a sociologist at Columbia University in New York, investigated whether taking a virginity pledge affected the age when people first had sex. It did, with an average delay of 18 months. The pledgers also got married earlier and had fewer partners overall.

But when Bearman went back six years later and looked at the STD rates in the same people, now aged between 18 and 24, he was in for a surprise. In research presented at the National STD conference in Philadelphia last year, he found that though pledgers had had fewer sexual partners than non-pledgers, they were just as likely to have had an STD. And the reason? “Pledgers use condoms less,” says Bearman. “It’s difficult to simultaneously imagine not intending to have sex and being contraceptively prepared.”

Here lies the problem that many have with the idea of abstinence-only education. While it may work for those kids who live up to the ideal, those who don’t are left without the knowledge to protect themselves when they do have sex. “It’s not rocket science,” says Bearman.

[quote]jackzepplin wrote:
miniross wrote:
jackzepplin wrote:
Hey lothario1132,

Remeber the “penis wrinkles” I was talking about? Found one.

Later,

J

i hope that wasn’t pointed at me.

such petty comments.

In dissagreement, dont rely on name calling. it is uneccessary.

Petty funny, huh. I’m beginning to form an opinion of you. So far, it’s not favorable. So, yes, that was a jab directed at you. I’m just getting tired of you throwing out your useless “last word”. Seems, to me, that you’re not very objective, so I might take it upon myself to sling a little mud.

Endlessly waiting for your last word,

J[/quote]

I dont think i ever claimed to be objective.

show me an oblective man and i will show you a liar.

Make your opinion as you will. sling away, sir. that is at least my last word on this matter. likewise, i await your repost. i am off into the garden to mow the lawn, or something.

Zeb, honestly, any attempt at categorization I have tried, except for your almighty opinion, has categorized me as a libertarian. I tack liberal onto that solely for your benefit.

Anyhow, you are hopeless. If the only topic you wish to discuss is my political leaning, you are a complete loser. The opportunity to actually consider things, discuss them and learn is out there somewhere, try grabbing onto it some time.

Look me up if you do. Otherwise, don’t.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I see once again you will not admit you are a liberal without couching it with another term “liberal-libertarian.”

Zeb, honestly, any attempt at categorization I have tried, except for your almighty opinion, has categorized me as a libertarian. I tack liberal onto that solely for your benefit.

Anyhow, you are hopeless. If the only topic you wish to discuss is my political leaning, you are a complete loser. The opportunity to actually consider things, discuss them and learn is out there somewhere, try grabbing onto it some time.

Look me up if you do. Otherwise, don’t.[/quote]

vroom:

I agree if the only topic that I wised to discuss was your political leaning I would be a complete loser! Fortunately, that is not the case.

It may seem, to you like that’s all I talk about, because that is all that “we” talk about. Obviously, I have many other interests, mostly in the training,lifting and nutrition department.

Maybe we should just talke about those subjects, then you wouldn’t feel so put upon to step forward and admit you are a liberal :slight_smile:

[quote]vroom wrote:
I see once again you will not admit you are a liberal without couching it with another term “liberal-libertarian.”

Zeb, honestly, any attempt at categorization I have tried, except for your almighty opinion, has categorized me as a libertarian. I tack liberal onto that solely for your benefit.

Anyhow, you are hopeless. If the only topic you wish to discuss is my political leaning, you are a complete loser. The opportunity to actually consider things, discuss them and learn is out there somewhere, try grabbing onto it some time.

Look me up if you do. Otherwise, don’t.[/quote]

Is he still doing that? I thought we got past that stuff.
Honestly, there’s no shame in being a liberal…well, not much shame, anyway !..and this is beginning to get old.

Zeb, I can live with that.

I was about to sneak in and edit “loser” to “fool” just in case, but it looks like you took it in the right light.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, I can live with that.

I was about to sneak in and edit “loser” to “fool” just in case, but it looks like you took it in the right light.[/quote]

vroom:

Yea, I did. I must say however you are one of the most skilled “wordsmiths” on this site!

1 Corinthians 6:9
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor HOMOSEXUALS, nor SODOMITES, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Main Entry: homosexual
Function: adjective
1: of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex
2: of, relating to, or involving sexual intercourse between persons of the same sex

Main Entry: sodomy
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French sodomie, from Late Latin Sodoma Sodom; from the homosexual proclivities of the men of the city in Gen 19:1-11
1: copulation with a member of the same sex or with an animal
2: noncoital and especially anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex
Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary

Ephesians 5:5
“For this you know, that no FORNICATOR, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.”

Main Entry: fornication
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other
Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary

Revelations 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, SEXUALLY IMMORAL, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

St. Mark 10:6
“But from the beginning of the creation, God made them MALE and FEMALE. For this reason a MAN shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his WIFE, and the two shall become one flesh.”

1 Corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each MAN have his own WIFE, and let each WOMAN have her own HUSBAND."

I personally hold nothing against homosexuals but they urgently need to repent. As does everyone who engages in premarital affairs, oral sex, or anal sex with a member of the opposite gender - we’re no better. Every human being is vulnerable, or rather has an affinity, to certain sins. EVERYONE has an inner nature stained with impurity which they must rise above if they wish to be redeemed and reconciled with God in the Day of Judgment. Homosexuality is one such impurity. With or without the Bible, this is a belief the Church has preached unwaveringly since its inception in 33 AD. Most people remain ignorant to the fact that the Church preceded the Bible by almost a few decades, but needless to say, the Christian Faith was preached unto the peoples with great fervor by the Lord Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles. The Church preserved the teachings of Christ and delivered these truths/commands/warnings to future generations by use of oral transmission as disciples traveled across the European, Asian, & African continents as well as by use of written letters (epistles). [The majority of the Bible is a compilation of such epistles.]

Holy tradition involves both the oral AND written teachings of the Church. From the earliest of times within Christianity, as well as Judaism, marriage signified the righteous union between a male and female in the eyes of God. Then and ONLY then was the couple given the blessing to partake in sexual relations.

1-God communicated the proper manner by which couples shall be united. Same sex couples are NOT granted any such blessing for marital union.
2-Couples, whether homosexual or heterosexual, may NOT engage in premarital affairs. Being that homosexuals may never partake of the holy sacrament of marriage with a same sex partner, they’ll always be classified as FORNICATORS and/or SODOMITES if they engage in sexual relations of any kind (unless they happen to marry a member of the opposite gender and refrain from acts of oral or anal intercourse).
3-Even beyond submitting to any sexual relations, homosexuality remains a sinful disposition which an individual must battle against if they hope to ever achieve salvation. Even if he/she never successfully overcomes their orientation, it is this inner battle which God shall judge.

For the Lord Jesus Christ says, “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnesses, blasphemies.”
And likewise, “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

The heart is the epicenter of the human soul. Every man’s heart is polluted with sins and needs to be cleansed. Some of you readers may choose to believe there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality, but God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus Christ, has spoken, and His Church has continued to profess and preserve His laws & teachings for the past 2000 years.

Feeling the need for a modernized, progressive theological stance on the issue? Tough luck.

St. Matthew 5:18
“For assuredly, I [Jesus Christ] say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled”.

St. Matthew 5:19
“Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Peace be with you all!

Zeb, the bible never condemns homosexuality in the modern day sense, Leviticus and corinthians are referring to another kind of activity (I would refer you to the actual translation of the words used, which in modern times have been replaced with the new word “homosexuality” but that term isn’t actually in the bible.), that has nothing to do with two people of the same gender loving each other, FYI. Also christ did die for all of our sins. We are saved by his grace, not by deeds so that none may brag, this is a gift that I presume stretches into the infinite, and I don’t see any asteriks or footnotes on this one, and as galatians makes clear those teaching a different gospel are condemned to hell. Anybody who tells you otherwise would be playing word games (example:homosexuality, abortion etc. these things just aren’t in the bible)