[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I don’t know the bible too good.
Obviously
I think that is what Zeb is trying to say. So many people comment on the bible and know nothing about it themselves. All they know is what someone else told them. Please do not be a prisoner to another?s ideas, especially when it comes to religion.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Orbitalboner:
Zebra? Oh I see you are trying to be funny, or insulting, or childish…
Well with a name like “Orbitalboner” my work is already done!
Yes, I agree the word “liberal” has many definitions. I wonder why vroom runs from such a fine word? 
[/quote]
Hey, it’s witty in a low brow kind of way. Please answer that question, via a link, copy and paste job, or your own witty prose. Otherwise you will be subject to an orbitalboning.
[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Orbitalboner:
Zebra? Oh I see you are trying to be funny, or insulting, or childish…
Well with a name like “Orbitalboner” my work is already done!
Yes, I agree the word “liberal” has many definitions. I wonder why vroom runs from such a fine word?
Hey, it’s witty in a low brow kind of way. Please answer that question, via a link, copy and paste job, or your own witty prose. Otherwise you will be subject to an orbitalboning.[/quote]
Ha ha an “orbitalboning!” Yikes! No thanks…
Um I thought I answered your question.
Time for you to ask another question regarding something that I can help you with
folly.
this GAP GOD type of theory (ie that if we dont have the piece of information, then it must have an alternative explanation, it must have a supernatural explanation) is ultimately doomed.
I have only the smallest appreciation for evolution theory, and darwin is by no means the final word in it. in fact it has been developed and built upon ever since. the weight of evidence out there (not recognisable by most of us) is so huge, factoring in more than “the missing link” (it is a more huge and complex beast than to be simplified down to that 1 thing) that it is often over simplified.
I have tried to read a few texts on it, but my brain and understanding isnot quite there yet.
My favourite (simple) comment is “god must of been unusually fond of beetles, then”.
But this is a diffenrent thrad, methinks.
And it is good to see that you have at least based your decision on experience and took that lesson from it. like all eople, this is ultimately the best way of learning, whoever you are.
Ok… How do you reconcile the Christian belief that we are all judged on how we live our lives by a supposedly fair God, who sends us to eternal damnation if we do not follow his laws. This while taking into account that nearly 100% of our behaviour is determined by our genetics and interactions with our environment, as well as the fact that more than half the world’s population is not taught ‘the word of God’ through no fault of their own. What will become of these people?
[quote]bamit wrote:
I think that is what Zeb is trying to say. So many people comment on the bible and know nothing about it themselves. All they know is what someone else told them. Please do not be a prisoner to another?s ideas, especially when it comes to religion.
[/quote]
and this is to be said of numerous concepts uch as evolutionary theory, possibly more misquoted than the bible.
Zeb, you answer the questions I have asked of you and perhaps I’ll be bothered to answer your questions. Does that sound fair?
What the hell are you talking about?
What does this have to do with anything I have asked? I’ve already admitted to have liberal/libertarian leanings, I’m just not a tree-hugging, anti-war hippy you want to make me out to be.
Again, why don’t you answer the questions posed instead of trying to deflect this into a debate on liberalism or some other such nonsense?
Perhaps because you have no suitable thoughts to share?
lothario1132 and all Catholic-Bashers,
It has been my experience that people who take issue with the Catholic Church, tend to not understand the Catholic Church. Maybe you do, but I just wanted to drop a link for you to take a look at if you have questions. I’m hoping that pride doesn’t hinder your ability to take a look at the site objectively and keep an open mind.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html
I’m hearing a lot about the AIDS crisis in Africa, and all I can say is that the Catholic Church is doing everything they can in this situation. While the Church’s view of contraception and sexual attitudes may not mirror those of a more liberal society, they stay true to our understanding of the scripture. They will also outlast any regional socio-attitude.
I’ll leave this thread by saying that some things are true, whether you believe in them or not.
God bless,
Jack
[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
Ok… How do you reconcile the Christian belief that we are all judged on how we live our lives by a supposedly fair God, who sends us to eternal damnation if we do not follow his laws. This while taking into account that nearly 100% of our behaviour is determined by our genetics and interactions with our environment, as well as the fact that more than half the world’s population is not taught ‘the word of God’ through no fault of their own. What will become of these people?[/quote]
Orbitalboner:
You do know that these questions are slightly “off topic” right? They are off topic and quite out of my league.
I think the above questions are better asked of someone who is both smarter than I, and also better versed on the Bible, but I will give them a shot, since you asked and seem to be such a nice guy. If I fall short please don’t make fun of me, I might get a complex
Seems you have a few questions here, and maybe some faulty premises.
First, according to the Bible (and my limited knowledge of it) we are not judged by “how we live our lives.” We are judged by our acceptance or non-acceptance of Jesus Christ as the savior of mankind. If we have accepted Christ as our savior, then our faith will be shown in our “works.” That does not mean that a man who has accepted Christ never sins, it just means that he try?s not to sin and if he does, he repents. Quite a bit different than those who sin and say “love me and my sin anyway, I’m not changing.”
Secondly, I also disagree with your conclusion: “that nearly 100% of our behavior is determined by our genetics…” I don’t think the scientific jury is in yet as to whether we behave as we do based upon “nature” (as you claim) or “nurture” as others claim.
Either way, according to the Bible (and my limited knowledge of it, oh yea I said that) upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior you will undergo a change. Before you have a belly laugh over that, keep in mind that many, many people have stopped stealing, beating their wife, drinking, pornography addiction (sorry TC). And a multitude of other “sin” based upon their acceptance of Christ, and nothing more!
You might say that they were brainwashed, or kidding themselves, or whatever reason you might want to attribute other than it was Christ interacting with them. The fact is enough Christians have claimed this sort of experience as to at least take notice. And if this is the case “genetics” even if it were true (which is not the case, at least not 100%), cannot be an excuse for sin!
Your final question: “as well as the fact that more than half the world’s population is not taught ‘the word of God’ through no fault of their own. What will become of these people?”
According to the Bible there is never an excuse for not knowing that there is a God: Romans 1: 20: ?For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.? (Romans 21-24 gets even better, but I will let that go for now). The point is that you are not accountable for what you don?t know. If, for example you are a Pigmy in Africa and were never introduced to the concept of Christ then you are not accountable. However, that grace ends when you start claiming that there is no God.
Unfortunately, I don?t think many in America or any free nation (and many others which are not free) fall under the “grace” pass relative to ignorance, as most are well aware of the Bible, Christ, God (the whole ball of wax) and reject it anyway.
I really tried, as best that I could, to answer your questions. I hope I was at least somewhat helpful.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Perhaps you don’t want to answer my question. You never have openly admitted your liberal political leanings (although they were easy to determine).
Zeb, you answer the questions I have asked of you and perhaps I’ll be bothered to answer your questions. Does that sound fair?
I’m sorry you think it’s an insult to be called a liberal. However, I have found that most liberals hate that label. I think they hate it, not because they disagree with liberal views. They hate it because it “tags” them as to what the rest of us can expect relative to their future comments.
What the hell are you talking about?
What does this have to do with anything I have asked? I’ve already admitted to have liberal/libertarian leanings, I’m just not a tree-hugging, anti-war hippy you want to make me out to be.
Again, why don’t you answer the questions posed instead of trying to deflect this into a debate on liberalism or some other such nonsense?
Perhaps because you have no suitable thoughts to share?[/quote]
vroom:
You popped onto this thread asking me plenty of questions, none of which had a dang thing to do with the thread. Those questions were also hard for me to answer, I’m no Bible expert. Then you ended by accusing me of “blind faith.” The whole post was pretty bizarre, even for you. And you have written some pretty bizarre posts!
I have an idea, why don’t you either PM me, or begin a new thread regarding “Why people believe what they do.” I promise to come pay it a visit.
My question to you is easy. You should know if you are a liberal or not. Then again it’s not “knowing” it’s admitting that happens to be your problem.
I see once again you will not admit you are a liberal without couching it with another term “liberal-libertarian.”
Okay vroom end of your hijack! Move along sir…go ahead keep walking…
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
ZEB: Okay. My bad. Make that TWO references to homosexuality being bad. Meanwhile, the rest of the bible teaches tolerance, etc. You and I are famous around here for our battling viewpoints about this, and I’m not surprised at what you posted.
Anyway, this doesn’t change the fact that the church is growing more and more irrelevant. As the world changes, you must adapt just like any other organism, or you will die. Plain and simple, the Catholic religion is dying. I will restate that I think there is still time to save it, should a more progressive Pope step up to the plate and make some changes.
Who here doesn’t see that the policies of the Catholic church are failing the third world? Who cannot see that the vow of celibacy is at its very nature against what being a human with animal tendencies involves? Being a man of God should not make you stop being a man, for cryin’ out loud! The proof is in the pudding as we see more and more Catholic priests failing at their vows, and some of them committing horrible crimes against their altar boys. You don’t hear about pedophilic rabbis, do you? And it’s not because the Jewish church is better at covering up for their criminal clergy members.
Change or die, Catholic church.[/quote]
Lothario,
As for the references to homosexuality- Humor me here, but if I tell my children something, ONCE is enough. Should that not likewise be with the word of God (surely my authority doesn’t outweigh His)?
We (Christians) are taught to hate the sin NOT the sinner. Complete intolerance of the person will never win a homosexual over to Christ, but a homosexual will never truly have Christ in his heart or the salvation by the GRACE of God, and still live a homosexual lifestyle.
The word of the Bible is UNCHANGING as is God. This is said a multitude of times in the Bible. If you don’t believe it, you better hope you are right because you will find out too late if you aren’t.
Remember, the people of Sodom and Gemorha believed in their hearts and minds that they were doing no wrong. Being turned into a pillar of salt seems like it would be a real bitch, to me.
God’s grace is sufficient (also said in the Bible) for those who confess their sins and SINCERELY try to mend their ways. Not to those who try to make excuses for their sin to justify their ways.
As for the improprieties of the Catholic Church, as of late, I agree. I have always had some problems with Catholic doctrine as well as the evils commited by some of the Priests. I think some MEN became priests to hide behind the power of the Catholic church and not for divine and spiritual purposes. Bear in mind that there is a place called Hell. It is very real, and it was designed to deal with said people who commit the above acts.
Getting back to the topic at hand…great article by Mark Steyn (find some of his old stuff if you’ve never read him) about what John Paul II stood for, and what his liberal media critics miss:
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Getting back to the topic at hand…great article by Mark Steyn (find some of his old stuff if you’ve never read him) about what John Paul II stood for, and what his liberal media critics miss:
Great artcle GDollars! Thanks for the post.
folly:
Do you have the same depth of emotion you feel for you wife with your friend?
ZEB:
That’s a delusion. If such people exist that distinguish between the two, I’ve never met them.
If they thought a garden trowel was watching over them, that could just as easily be the impetus.
Overcoming these actions is strictly an act of will; if it takes a theological figurehead to bolster that dam, so be it.
DI
[quote]KnightRT wrote:
folly:
I have heard that “it’s not about sex, it’s about love.” I call bullshit on this one… …I would even go as far as to say that I love this guy. Does that make me gay?
Do you have the same depth of emotion you feel for you wife with your friend?
ZEB:
The Bible (and the Church) is about loving the sinner and hating the sin. That, is tolerence!
That’s a delusion. If such people exist that distinguish between the two, I’ve never met them.
keep in mind that many, many people have stopped stealing… … And a multitude of other “sin” based upon their acceptance of Christ, and nothing more!
If they thought a garden trowel was watching over them, that could just as easily be the impetus.
Overcoming these actions is strictly an act of will; if it takes a theological figurehead to bolster that dam, so be it.
DI[/quote]
Wow KnightRT…I have to admire you! Some poets, great thinkers and religious figures down through the ages have taken an entire lifetime to ponder these questions. You seem to have a firm hold on all of the answers with no doubtin your mind. Good for you man, I think your a freaking genius, and at such a young age.
ZEB:
My view is strictly realist. I consider the Catholic church to be a highly skilled manipulator of human nature, preaching to an audience that would rather follow than lead. The theological details are irrelevant.
The Bible is sufficiently broad and contradictory to support almost any view, a fact great poets, thinkers, and otherwise have used to their advantage since its inception.
Perhaps our current interpretation… and I do emphasize that word… requires revision.
DI
“Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love.”
I’m sorry christians, and although I respect y’all and y’all’s beliefs, I just cannot wrap my mind around this extremely f’d-up concept.
ZEB, you are the man. You know I respect you. But what we have here is you talking out of your ass on this issue. I won’t draw you into a heated discussion about this yet again… but let me just pipe up with one more thing:
Those AIDS victims loved Jesus and accepted him as their savior (unlike me), which is the most important thing to do with your faith, right? Then the Pope told them – the POPE, mind you – that they were going to hell. That is one mind-blowing thing to do, buddy. This isn’t like some crackpot on a street corner holding a John 3:16 sign, this was the leader of the most powerful and influential christian organization in the world looking them right in the eye and basically saying “y’all are fucked.”
Just because I’m no bible scholar doesn’t mean I can’t see something horrendously wrong with that. It’s not like these people were mass-murderers… in fact, we give absolution to mass-murderers before we fry them, don’t we? So those AIDS victims were doomed because they dared to love someone of the same gender?
I started this post by saying: “Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love…” and I’d like to add: “… as we interpret it.”
That’s the message I get from your religion, guys. Is it any wonder why I don’t buy into it? The way I see it, we’d be better off worshipping the sun. At least that thing exists. And it provides us with energy and light. If it wasn’t for the sun, no life at all could possibly exist here. You want to be thankful for something, there’s a good start.
lothario1132 ~ I’m not familiar with the message that you are repeating here about the Pope telling the Aids victims that they’re screwed? Can you point me to a resource/transcript that has his exact words? I’d like to study the text and put it in the proper perspective to analyze it. I have a hard time believing what you’re trying to pass off here, but I’m open minded enough to review any credible evidence you might have (not just YOUR interpretation). Syntax and language is easily misunderstood, so I’d like to review this for myself to better understand your passionate position.
Thanks.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
“Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love.”
I’m sorry christians, and although I respect y’all and y’all’s beliefs, I just cannot wrap my mind around this extremely f’d-up concept.
ZEB, you are the man. You know I respect you. But what we have here is you talking out of your ass on this issue. I won’t draw you into a heated discussion about this yet again… but let me just pipe up with one more thing:
Those AIDS victims loved Jesus and accepted him as their savior (unlike me), which is the most important thing to do with your faith, right? Then the Pope told them – the POPE, mind you – that they were going to hell. That is one mind-blowing thing to do, buddy. This isn’t like some crackpot on a street corner holding a John 3:16 sign, this was the leader of the most powerful and influential christian organization in the world looking them right in the eye and basically saying “y’all are fucked.”
Just because I’m no bible scholar doesn’t mean I can’t see something horrendously wrong with that. It’s not like these people were mass-murderers… in fact, we give absolution to mass-murderers before we fry them, don’t we? So those AIDS victims were doomed because they dared to love someone of the same gender?
I started this post by saying: “Eternal punishment awaits any who questions God’s infinite love…” and I’d like to add: “… as we interpret it.”
That’s the message I get from your religion, guys. Is it any wonder why I don’t buy into it? The way I see it, we’d be better off worshipping the sun. At least that thing exists. And it provides us with energy and light. If it wasn’t for the sun, no life at all could possibly exist here. You want to be thankful for something, there’s a good start.[/quote]
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Plain and simple, the Catholics are failing in their self-appointed task of saving the third world from itself. The problems are too complex, and the church is too ponderous and incapable of adaptation to address the special needs of the African continent.[/quote]
I think I see here, in your words, what the problem is. If I remember right, you don’t believe that Jesus is the Savior of the world, right? Well, Christians do.
Simply put, Catholics did not SELF-appoint themselves to do anything. Jesus gave us strict orders to help the weak. The AIDS epidemic existed before the Catholic Church explosion in the African region. The Church simply went there to try to HELP the situation. You are right about one thing though. The Church does NOT adapt to fit the broken down moral fiber of our world. The world is expected to adapt to the teachings of Jesus and God’s word.
We live in sad times in that too many people live only for themselves and not for something greater than themselves. Our Church lends a hand and sticks to the word of God in which we believe. If you don’t believe, then you cannot understand. No God, no peace. Know God, know peace.
Take care,
Jack
jack: It’s pretty busy tonight in the ER. Another guy just OD’d and died, and googling anything with the words “Pope John Paul” right now is like sifting through Dante’s first layer of Hell, but I’ll try to find something for you when I get a chance. I’m not trying to bullshit you guys and make you look bad or anything. That really did happen.