Keto Support Group V.2

SKIN: You sound on target…may want to intersperse the refeeds a little apart (space em)…that way you can still maintain your refeed days as are, but they don’t inflate your total average deficit.

ALSO: as per the issue of carbs post-workout. I find that to be a personal preference issue. While the scientific data are strong in the view that post-workout carbs are essential, IMO, i have not seen this in vivo, particularly when dieting. Keep in mind that when one diets, they aren’t planning on getting big…if they were, they would need ot hit the books a bit…during keto and other diets, you are trying to maintain muscle at best. I am not aware of any studies that suggested one maintains more muscle mass while dieting with PWO carbs. Indeed, the keto studies have suggested that keto diets are slightly more effective at preserving LBM than are carb-based diets. If PWO carbs did upset the keto balance, you might run that negligible risk.

Staying keto has worked for me. The ultimate player in muscle loss is going to be moreso things like T and TUT rather than a quick burst of carbs post-workout.

Vain

PS:
Lyle’s book is hard to find becuase of its availability.
I have read it and have had the pleasure of corresponding with Lyle.
A lot of my guide is a fusion and slight modification of his material.

Try interlibrary loan at your closest collegiate library.

-Vain

Vain68-Hey just read over your keto guide. Very informative. I will be using some of the tips an hints you gave, in the next 3-4 wks. Thanks again.-LW

yllemslleb…yes, when building muscle is the main goal, carbs are a necessary component of the program but you have to consider the goals and where you’re at with bodyfat. First, on a keto diet (or any calorie deficit diet for that matter), you’re not going to build any appreciable muscle. We are using these diets for cutting.

And while this is highly debatable, under the right circumstances carbs are not always necessary post-workout. A lot of the keto/semi-keto advocates do not recommend carbs post-workout until bodyfat gets below a certain level (generally 8 percent or less). I am one who uses this exact protocol; however it should be noted that I take a hefty dose of bcaa’s pre/during workout and post-w along with glutamine/glycerol.

I know not everyone agrees with this approach, and that’s fine. As with virtually every aspect of the keto diet, it is HIGHLY individual. Many people will do just fine with a serving of Surge after workouts on a keto diet. I know that it wouldn’t kill me to use it either right now, but as I maintain full performance w/o the post-workout carbs (for now), they’re simply not necessary for me.

Just wanted to add that I’ll be available for support to anyone entering the dieting/physique contest.

Vain

This year, I have been following the same low-carb plan that I have done the last two years, but I haven’t been losing fat at the same rate. I was browsing the forums and came accross this thread, and thought “why not go KETO?” I had used Bodyopus successfully in the past.

I’d like to thank Vain for sending me the guide so quickly. It has lots of good information, and seems to be a bit more in-depth than Bodyopus.

I am on day 18 of a cyclical keto diet as laid out in Faigin?s NHE. Days 1-7 were <20g CHO. Going forward I have had <40g CHO daily, and carb refeeds on the last two meals of Sundays and Thursdays. I am taking in about 2,200 calories (280g protein, 105g fat, 30g carbs) at a bodyweight of 190 pounds. From experience, my maintenance calories are around 2,500. It doesn?t seem I have made the metabolic shift to an efficient fat burner. My energy is down and I still struggle on low carb days. Also, I formerly used Surge as a during/post-workout drink and felt it benefited me with much better recovery and dramatically reduced soreness. Now I am sore for days after a hard workout and I fatigue easily during workouts. Today was legs day (I lift AM) and after several of my sets, I was very light-headed and exhausted. Should I just gut it out and see if I make the metabolic shift? Does it take longer than this? I just don?t feel I am efficiently using fat as my energy source. On workout days, I am considering adding 45g of ?effective? carbs with one scoop of Surge (25g CHO) plus additional whey as a during/post-workout drink, followed 60-90 minutes later with 1/3C of oatmeal (20g CHO), then continuing the remainder of the day with low carbs. Any thoughts on what I might do to be a more efficient fat burner?

A couple of suggestions:

  1. Consider upping your fat and lowering your protein IF you are lagging in energy as well as fat loss. Excess protein can convert to glucose and you mentioned being a more “efficient” fat burner. While I do fine with a fat intake such as yours, many do not. A true ketogenic diet is around 70-75 percent fat and 25-30 percent protein, so you might experiment with this and see if you notice a difference. Also, what are your food sources? Load up on the EFA’s if you aren’t already doing so.

  2. Calories: they may be a tad low. Try 12-13x bodyweight, which for you would be 23-2400 cals.

  3. Time frame: the metabolic shift takes minimum 14 days. Poliquin and others put clients on it for 25 days before making any adjustments. Your body may just be taking a bit longer.

The main thing is…don’t be afraid to experiment. Once again, the keto diet is HIGHLY individual and what works for one may not work at all for another. And you may find that you do better on a more moderate carb intake. There are many others that just cannot follow a ketogenic plan. Good luck!

ironic - Experiment with just Surge PWO; see if your recovery improves. If you need a boost after that, add the oatmeal.

A PWO recovery beverage seems to be better than a strict low carb diet. Some people don’t need the PWO carbs in keto, but since you do, add them in.

To switch to fat burning, supplement with EFA’s, emphasis on the n-3’s in fish oils. Search for ‘Lean Mean Fat-Burning Machine’ for details.

Just wanted to second what has been said in assistance to IRONIC.

It does take some time to get used to a ketogenic type intake, particularly if your diet was carb-based before…the more you are on the keto diet, the better off you will feel…Again, carbs post-workout are highly individual.
I find that I don’t need them and do better without them. I have experimented with various carb intakes, and currently on a cut “etching” phase, I roam anywhere from 60-80g carbs per day. I am currently at 158…to get to this level, i was on strict keto days of under 30. Also, don’t worry about the fat, as long as calories are kept below mntc. I think people have a psychological aversion to feeding fat into their system…one needs to conquer this as well
also, ironic you mentioned that your weight was 190…I was assume that your metabolic rate would be somewhere around 2500 without the activity factor in there…you are probably burning close to 3g per day…try a more conservative calorie defecit…keep your calories in the 2g, to 2100 range for now.

Don’t refeed until you have cut substantial fat and acclimated to the diet.

Vain

Thank you for the quick responses Monty and QB. Monty - Perhaps I should tip the scales a bit more in favor of fat by adding more beef, whole eggs and EFAs? Right now I eat 6-7 meals daily and take 2 tablespoons of Ultra Omega-3 Fish oil for 8.1g of EPA/DHA. I was trying to make the point that it seems I am not an efficient fat burner yet. Does your recommendation in #1 still hold? Also, I am slightly hypocaloric. If I am trying to lose BF, shouldn’t I be? I am currently at 12-13% BF. QB - I may try the Surge PWO shake only and see if that does the trick.

Vain,

I’m looking to participate in the Dog Pound’s upcoming Diet Contest, and I’d like to look over your Keto Guide I’ve heard so much about.

I went to your site, but I couldn’t find your email off-hand. Do you have another link to it, perhaps?

Very cool thread! What Vain said was very true and something I’ve personally experienced - the longer you stay on a keto diet, the easier it becomes. Your body does eventually adjust. Also, the more keto dieting you have done, the easier it is to go back to a keto diet… it’s as if your body remembers how to function on low carbs.

I figured I’d share what I’m doing and see what y’all think. I’m using a TKD at the moment. Protein is around 1.5g/lb of LBW right now. Not paying too much attention to fat intake, just making sure that I get some fat in every meal. I also use 3tbsp of flax oil during the day and 4tsp fish oil at night. I’m taking in carbs and protein before/during/after my workout. Also making sure I get in plenty of green veggies… I’m really digging salad lately. 1 day a week I’m taking a break and having a cheat meal - more of a psychological thing than anything else.

Fat loss has been pretty good so far, but I want to experiment a little. Next week I’m switching from the carb+protein shake to a bcaa+glutamine shake during my workout (with a protein shake an hour before)… hopefully recovery and energy levels will still be good. I’m also planning on incorporating weekly refeeds once my body fat % gets to an appreciable level.

As I mentioned.
anyone participating in the Pound’s diet contest I will be available for tweeking and assistance during your diet.
Just PM me and I’ll get a guide to you.
Vain

ironic, if you are sure your cal level is hypocaloric slightly then I wouldn’t change a thing with that. I would boost fat intake. Eggs would be good as they are a quality source of protein, and keep using the fish oil, but I would throw in some flax oil to the mix as well. The less saturated fat, the better. Also consider raw nuts such as walnuts, macadamia, cashews, brazil nuts, etc. This should make a big difference. Be patient, and you’ll likely adapt.

Another thing I didn’t notice was what your diet was before going to keto. If you go from a normal carb-based plan of say 40-55 percent carbs, you will have this lethargy for a spell. This is what I did my first time on keto years back and I absolutely hated it. I think that for most people, gradually working into it works better. So if you normally ate say 40-50 percent carbs, work down to 30, 20, etc. This makes “the shift” so much easier.

Other things to look at: make sure you’re loading up on water (MINIMUM 1 gallon a day) and consider supplemental calcium/magnesium/potassium. When I started supplementing extra on the above ingredients, it made a world of difference in my energy levels. Vain can probably get more into the physiology of all this, but basically you’ll excrete them much faster on keto, and it is also easy to become dehydrated.

Just wanted to say that if you requested a guide and I didn’t get you one its because I have been inundated.
PM me with your email and I’ll tweek one off to you
Happy KETOING

Vain

Here is why I suggest no carbs post-workout, particularly on an established keto diet

The finding that endurance-trained individuals have elevated fat utilization in the resting state (1, 2) has raised the possibility that exercise can produce an overall increase in fat oxidation, particularly in the postexercise state. This effect is particularly relevant for obesity-prone individuals who are known to have reduced fat oxidation after weight reduction (3).

Bielinski et al (4) studied energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in the postexercise recovery period using whole-body indirect calorimetry. They showed that 17 h after a 3-h exercise session at 50% of maximal oxygen consumption ( O2max) there was a 4.7% increase in resting energy expenditure and a significant decrease in respiratory quotient (RQ). Other studies also showed a persisting increase in metabolic rate after exercise bouts of different durations and intensities (5, 6) as well as reduced RQs (5, 7, 8). Conversely, Weststrate et al (7) did not find any effect of exercise on resting metabolic rate (RMR) 12 h after a 90-min exercise bout at 25?35% of O2max. These results may be related to an exercise intensity that was too low, as shown previously (6).

The enhancement in fat oxidation after exercise reflected by the decrease in RQ may be secondary to the glycogen depletion and to the acute negative energy balance induced by the exercise stimulus. It is possible then that the reduced carbohydrate availability promotes a shift from glucose to fat oxidation. To verify this hypothesis, Calles-Escandon et al (9) submitted 21 subjects to one of four 10-d treatments: 1) control, 2) overfeeding, 3) exercise, and 4) overfeeding and exercise. They found that after an exercise session at 50% of maximal oxygen consumption representing 50% of daily RMR, fat oxidation increased at rest independently of a postexercise dietary compensation matching the cost of exercise.

According to the classic concept developed by Randle et al (10), fat metabolism can substantially alter carbohydrate metabolism. However, little evidence has supported this concept in exercise studies. In a recent study, it was shown that fatty acid oxidation is regulated by carbohydrate metabolism via changes in blood insulin concentrations during exercise (11), probably by controlling the rate of fatty acid entry into the mitochondria (12). Thus, during recovery, the exercise-induced glycogen depletion and the decrease in circulating insulin could provoke an increase in fat oxidation by enhancing fatty acid metabolism, perhaps until carbohydrate stores are replenished. Specifically, this may mean that the substrate mix oxidized is altered in the postexercise state as long as carbohydrate balance is not restored, which seems concordant with the theory proposed by Flatt (13).

In the present study, we attempted to document this phenomenon by measuring postexercise macronutrient oxidation under conditions in which liquid supplementation compensating for the carbohydrate and lipid oxidized (over the resting rate) was provided immediately after exercise. We submitted 8 volunteers to an exercise session followed by 61 h in a respiratory chamber to measure postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation.

Just wanted to keep this going…
how is everyone’s experiences with keto going?

Has the guide helped?

Keep me posted…

Vain

Well, over another week has passed since I last posted to this thread.
The last time I posted I stated that in the coming week I would find out if the eating regimen I am following had aversely affected my strength levels. The good news is that they haven’t. I remained static. Eg I was able to repeat my chest workout of 40kg by 3 reps for 7 sets, with a 4min rest between sets.
My other exercises were the same. I LOST NO STRENGTH. And yet my weight loss continues. Picking up from where I left off in my last post, going from 97.6kg back to 100kg after my refeed day, then back down to 98 on the first of my 3 keto days, my weight loss has been as follows : 97kg, 96.6kg, 99kg, 97kg, 96kg, 95.6kg. I realise the weight loss cycle repeats itself exactly which might lead some to think I am pulling the figures out of my ass. I assure you I am not. I am in fact surprised by them. Given that on my refeed days I make no attempt to count cals and just eat all I can pack down without feeling sick, and that I would estimate that roughly my refeed days can vary in their total cal intake by as much as 500 cals.
Typically on a refeed day I’ll start with 4 poached eggs, 4 thick slices of multigrain toast, 1 large tin of baked beans (heated), and a half litre mug of tea with 50g of sugar. But after that it is open season. I might have up 3 large mugs of coffee with 60g sugar in each, some fruit, bread, chocolate icecream, steak or chicken with potatoe or rice. And a lot of milk.
On the keto days, I usually just pan fry a steak for breakfast with a large mug of tea (no sugar), and that’s it.
I have added a fibre supplement, thank god lol, wish I had done so earlier.
One thing I have noticed, is with this eating regimen, I have not suffered the hard to describe psychological shift I experienced when I went totally keto.
It is almost impossible for me to put into words but my thought processes when I went 3 months strictly keto underwent a distinct shift. And for approximately 3 weeks after I came off the diet I was in a sort of no mans land where I found it extremely difficult to focus my thoughts.
This has not happened this time. All that I have experienced is a difficulty in focusing my attention for reading/writing on the 3rd keto day. Particularly from midday onwards.
Its been quite a while since anyone has posted to this thread. But I will continue with my regular updates as to how my 3 days on, 1 day off keto diet is progressing.
Interestingly looking back through tmag I came across a good article titled The Cheaters Diet by Joel Marion it can be found here : http://www.tmag.com/nation_articles/body_230cheat.html
While my diet varies quite significantly in some areas to the diet he describes. It does explain the reason why this type of dieting is successful.
I’ll finish with a thankyou to vain, for sending me your guide. I have as yet to reread Lyle’s book so I am as of yet unable to put it into context. But from what I have read so far I have been very impressed. We are radically different in some areas. You seem to write down everything you take into your body. Whereas I try to keep a rough idea of what I am eating but that is about as far as it goes. Though maybe if I were a little more like you mate, I wouldn’t have to go on this diet in the first place, lol.

Skin
no problem on the guide,
One thing i would suggest is that given your previous experience with a straight keto for I believe you mentioned 33 days or something, your body has adapted quite well to ketosis…I.e., on the refeed, even though you may be transiently shifted out of ketosis, your body is used to using fat as its primary source of fuel, thus the ability to get back on the wagon with keto so easily now…

As per your strength, I doubt it will decrease, but of course with any diet, you will have marginal decreases due to some LBM loss.

As regards the structure I impose on myself continuing every, and I mean every macro…I feel this is the only way to do it right…Its like you are at the controls of a machine…and when something is busted, or weight loss stalls, all that data tell you what to tweek, or at least offer suggestions.

I am now continuing aspartame and saccharin in my database. I hope to tweek my database into access and offer it for a small fee…it has just about every food one could want, and I have found on more than one occasion, food lables are WRONG…

Vain