Keto Diet w/ No Refeeds. Advice?

Nutrition
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[quote]Vegita wrote:
soontobeIFBB wrote:
OP at your bodyfat, I would do one refeed every eight days. What the hell is the point in a two week break? Unless youre eating to gain muscle with min fat gain. A two week stasis is not needed at your point, or any point for that matter. Glycogen storages are not so abundant that they call for a two week refeed-

Umm actually after 5-6 weeks of heavy dieting, your hormones are all much lower than they are normally, this includes good fat loss hormones like Testosterone, IGF-1, HGH, ETC… so the one or two week “maintenance” re-feed, does in fact do something helpful and in most cases critical to a long term diet. A one day re-feed is not sufficient to stimulate hormone response. The endocrine system reacts too slowly, it is the slowest regulatory system in the body, and makes it’s changes over weeks and months, not over minutes and hours. Eating below maintenance will eventually make your hormone profile adapt to trying to hold onto it’s mass, the maintenance week essentially tricks your body into not caring if more mass is lost, and thankfully for our dietary knowledge, we can make most of that loss be fat, not muscle.

V[/quote]

OK so It looks like I am still loosing FAT but its slowing down. How about I just continue with KETO 100% and when I see my FAT loss has halted I add a RE-FEED on 1 day a week and then see what happens. I’m just scared to re-gain the FAT very quickly… If it fails then a 2 week maintenance out of KETO I will try. 5 weeks in and 13 pounds lost and 2 and 3/4 inches lost in my waist I have not lost any muscle so far (only water and glycogen) but for some reason my measurements are the same on my arms, chest, legs…?!? that with the waist decrease makes me happy and encourages me to just keep going but I feel the fat loss is coming down to a halt as the days go by…

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The longer you diet, the more your hormones get fucked and the more your metabolism is suppressed. It is a survival mechanism. There is no advantage whatsoever to continuing to diet now vs. going to maintenance for 1-2 weeks. You won’t gain fat by definition of “maintenance”.

You are MORE likely to gain the fat in the distance future when you are done dieting and want to maintain or gain weight again, if you continue to diet for an extended period. Waiting to refeed until fat loss stalls is a sure fire recipe for disaster. Especially now that your bodyfat is reaching the lower range.

The general advice is to do a full body workout in the standard BB rep range and then eat a lot of carbs and low fat. That’s your “refeed”. One day would be sufficient with the workout in the AM.

For the maintenance period, you just do your lifting and eat an amount that will not result in a change in weight. You will gain a ton of water weight but shouldn’t gain any fat at all. Take into account that your maintenance level will be significantly lower than when you started dieting.

Along these lines, when you move back to dieting, understand that you will eventually have to create a bigger deficit regardless of whether you implement refeeds or not. You are losing mass, and even fat contributes to your metabolic rate.

Not even taking into account the suppression of the metabolism, your maintenance and metabolism will be lower simply because you weigh less, and that’s going to mean less calories or more activity to keep the fat loss coming.

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[quote]soontobeIFBB wrote:
OP at your bodyfat, I would do one refeed every eight days. What the hell is the point in a two week break? Unless youre eating to gain muscle with min fat gain.

A two week stasis is not needed at your point, or any point for that matter. Glycogen storages are not so abundant that they call for a two week refeed-[/quote]

It isn’t a refeed, it’s a diet break. Glycogen stores can be replenished and super compensated within 24 hours. The break is for long term health, your hormones, your strength and LBM, and contributes to not gaining back fat when you eventually move entirely off the diet and stay at maintenance or move to gaining.

I think Lyle Mcdonald has written a lot of stuff on the importance of diet breaks, and it’s even more important when you are on a ketogenic diet for an extended period of time, and even more important when your bodyfat is reaching the lower range.

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[quote]Vegita wrote:

A one day re-feed is not sufficient to stimulate hormone response. The endocrine system reacts too slowly, it is the slowest regulatory system in the body, and makes it’s changes over weeks and months, not over minutes and hours.

Eating below maintenance will eventually make your hormone profile adapt to trying to hold onto it’s mass, the maintenance week essentially tricks your body into not caring if more mass is lost, and thankfully for our dietary knowledge, we can make most of that loss be fat, not muscle.

V[/quote]

Lyle Mcdonald (the "creater of the CKD) advocates the 24-36hour refeed, not a two week refeed. I would love to see some studies to back up both of your claims. How does a refeed support long term health? In that case he shouldnt be on the keto diet in general, certainly it is not the healthiest diet available.

It is extra effort for the liver and the kidneys. A one week refeed will NOT effect the rebound phenom that occurs, slowly adapting to a normal diet will, including a maintenance phase at the end.

[quote]Vegita wrote:

A one day re-feed is not sufficient to stimulate hormone response.

V[/quote]

prove this please = )

[quote]Vegita wrote:
The endocrine system reacts too slowly, it is the slowest regulatory system in the body, and makes it’s changes over weeks and months, not over minutes and hours.

V[/quote]

really? how about insulin? glucagon? amylin? CCK? They are hormones correct? Does it takes months to regulate blood sugar? Does it takes months for one to feel full? Or for gastric emptying to occur? All regulated by hormones, I believe they take MINUTES, SECONDS even.

Now good point dieting lowers testosterone, but excess adipose tissue raises estrogen also not a good thing… Leptin is a digestive hormone I would love to see your evidence that it takes weeks to be regulated.

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[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
Vegita wrote:

A one day re-feed is not sufficient to stimulate hormone response. The endocrine system reacts too slowly, it is the slowest regulatory system in the body, and makes it’s changes over weeks and months, not over minutes and hours.

Eating below maintenance will eventually make your hormone profile adapt to trying to hold onto it’s mass, the maintenance week essentially tricks your body into not caring if more mass is lost, and thankfully for our dietary knowledge, we can make most of that loss be fat, not muscle.

V

Lyle Mcdonald (the "creater of the CKD) advocates the 24-36hour refeed, not a two week refeed. I would love to see some studies to back up both of your claims. How does a refeed support long term health? In that case he shouldnt be on the keto diet in general, certainly it is not the healthiest diet available.

It is extra effort for the liver and the kidneys. A one week refeed will NOT effect the rebound phenom that occurs, slowly adapting to a normal diet will, including a maintenance phase at the end.

Vegita wrote:

A one day re-feed is not sufficient to stimulate hormone response.

V

prove this please = )

Vegita wrote:
The endocrine system reacts too slowly, it is the slowest regulatory system in the body, and makes it’s changes over weeks and months, not over minutes and hours.

V

really? how about insulin? glucagon? amylin? CCK? They are hormones correct? Does it takes months to regulate blood sugar? Does it takes months for one to feel full? Or for gastric emptying to occur? All regulated by hormones, I believe they take MINUTES, SECONDS even.

Now good point dieting lowers testosterone, but excess adipose tissue raises estrogen also not a good thing… Leptin is a digestive hormone I would love to see your evidence that it takes weeks to be regulated.[/quote]

Lyle Mcdonald has written an entire book called “Flexible Dieting” where he strongly advocates a two week diet break. Not a refeed. A diet break.

He actually recommends commencing it with a 24-36 hour refeed, and then eating at maintenance for the duration of the break. I don’t want to quote copywrite but you can easily find any of the information on his forum.

Lyle: “A Guide to Flexible Dieting can help you succeed on your diet this time around by teaching you how being less strict can make it work better. You’ll learn how to incorporate free meals, refeeds and even a full diet break (a 1-2 week period where you go off your diet).”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshe1010
Lyle, if my diet is moderate with ~150g crabs/day do i need to do some break? (physically and not psychically)

Lyle:
eventually, yes. things will always slow down while dieting regardless of macronutrient intake or whateve, it’s a standards adaptation to fat loss

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[quote]actionjeff wrote:

Lyle Mcdonald has written an entire book called “Flexible Dieting” where he strongly advocates a two week diet break. Not a refeed. A diet break.

He actually recommends commencing it with a 24-36 hour refeed, and then eating at maintenance for the duration of the break. I don’t want to quote copywrite but you can easily find any of the information on his forum.

Lyle: “A Guide to Flexible Dieting can help you succeed on your diet this time around by teaching you how being less strict can make it work better. You’ll learn how to incorporate free meals, refeeds and even a full diet break (a 1-2 week period where you go off your diet).”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moshe1010
Lyle, if my diet is moderate with ~150g crabs/day do i need to do some break? (physically and not psychically)

Lyle:
eventually, yes. things will always slow down while dieting regardless of macronutrient intake or whateve, it’s a standards adaptation to fat loss
[/quote]

“DO i need to take some break” This DOES NOT mean a two week break, a KETO DIET is not 150/carbs a day so even if his rec commendation was that, which it wasnt, it wouldnt apply. Any evidence about leptin? really none?

A quote about a diet is great, to bad its not the one the OP is on.

Oh and great he wrote a book about dieting, he also wrote a book about the Ketogenic diet that the OP is on, any quotes about a 2 week break from that one? No? Thats because he doesnt recommend one FOR THE KETO DIET. Heres a thought read this book “The Ketogenic Diet: A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner” and then get back to us. I have read it, so Ill save you the time though, a two week break isnt in it.

Another note is that I and many other bodybuilders do the CKD diet, and I have NEVER met anyone to do a two week refeed during that time period, I am at a much lower bodyfat and have no problem losing weight, I dont rebound. SoontobeIFBB is a Bber too, and he recommended against it as well…

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He recommends two week breaks for any prolonged dieting plan for anyone but an uber fattie. I am not the person you are discussing Leptin with and I am not Lyle.

Anecdotal evidence about what your bodybuilder friends do and what has worked for you doesn’t have much to do with what we are discussing, which is Lyle’s recommendation. Bodybuilders have gone decades without doing structured breaks or refeeds. That doesn’t mean they aren’t beneficial. No need for the hostility guy. I’m here to learn and improve myself too.

Why don’t you stop putting words in Lyle’s mouth and go to his forum and ask yourself?

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Look I am frustrated because I have read his book on the keto diet, and there is nothing about a two week re-feed. I am not putting words in his mouth, I am merely stating fact. Read the book if you like.

Sorry for being so angry, I dont want the OP doing a plan that will hinder his great progress. I dont need to go to his forum, I have read his book.

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I think the keto book was like, his original book. I haven’t read it.

My point is I think it was before the other more recent dieting ideas and he has updated it. All of the stuff about refeeds and general flexible dieting standards has been integrated into everything I have read that he’s published or written the past several years. If the keto diet is the exception then I am sorely mistaken but I would be very surprised if that was the case.

I would post in his forum and just ask myself but I ask too many questions and Lyle isn’t very friendly online, lol. I’ll just bump a thread and ask. I’ll bump this if he responds with something other than “I hate answering the same questions fuk you” and banning me

I also agree that refeeds are important and a CKD is probably superior for a training individual. But I think that 6-7 weeks with no refeeds whatsoever warrants a diet break. And possibly introducing refeeds once he dives back into dieting.

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[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
Look I am frustrated because I have read his book on the keto diet, and there is nothing about a two week re-feed. I am not putting words in his mouth, I am merely stating fact. Read the book if you like.

Sorry for being so angry, I dont want the OP doing a plan that will hinder his great progress. I dont need to go to his forum, I have read his book. [/quote]

Actually I just finished reading the book myself about 30 minute ago. What egnatiosj is saying is 100% right on the money. The diet that I am doing is indeed a KETO diet like described by the book. Its funny I’m doing the exact same thing to a T (exept the refeeds) but I had indeed lots of fat to lose 5 weeks ago and It did me good.

Everybody is trying to help and I REALLY appreciate everybodys help. Its nice to see so many people come out and try to help me BUT there is no need for anybody to get angry at anybody.

After reading Lyle’s book on the diet I am confinced what I need is a simple 24-48H refeed to get me on my way to even better gains and less fat.

I have made great progress on the KETO diet and dont want to ruin all my hard work. So this being said, I will go with egnatiosj advice and see where it takes me I will report back with my fat loss progress. Because of my situation I will only be able to start my 24-48 hour refeed on the weekend of 7 February… meanwhile I will continue with my KETO diet to then turn it in a CKD.

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lylemcd

Administrator

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,822
Default

Diet breaks exist, basically, irrespective of the specific dietary approach. Keto, carb, based-wahtever, if you’ve been in an active fat loss mode for a long-enough period, you should take a break.

Denny,

do you know what to do for the refeed? It’s pretty easy to fuck up or not make the most of it. It’s definitely a good idea to use them!

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[quote]actionjeff wrote:
lylemcd

Administrator

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,822
Default

Diet breaks exist, basically, irrespective of the specific dietary approach. Keto, carb, based-wahtever, if you’ve been in an active fat loss mode for a long-enough period, you should take a break.

Denny,

do you know what to do for the refeed? It’s pretty easy to fuck up or not make the most of it. It’s definitely a good idea to use them![/quote]

Yeap I have a good idea on what to do(for my size 500-1000 grams of carbs 48 hours and I’m going to add creatine and lots of water). I will need to read again and again to make sure I truly understand because you are right its going to be critical that I do it right or I could fuck up big time.

I cant wait to get there and start to gain muscle again :slight_smile: but I swear I have put on muscle and my strength is noticiably up too…doesnt make sense(with no glycogen in my myscles) but for me so far KETO has been a miracle…no more up and down moods or energy levels.

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I feel you. Keep in mind that you don’t have no glycogen, it’s just stabilized at a low concentration.

The moderate carb intake combined with the mechanisms your body has to produce small amounts of glycogen are saving your training. Long term without refeeds, or if you trained with a high volume, it would be a different story. A 5x5 program for example does not deplete much glycogen. 4x10 BB style is a different monster.

I managed to do the Coan deadlift cycle on a CKD before. Carb loaded around the Coan day and did heavy benching and squatting then too and just coasted the rest of the week, and lol, I leaned out a tiny bit and gained huge strength. Awesome.

I personally really like the carb loading parameters Lyle has set. Low fat (a huge amount of carbs and high calories and fat intake is a bad, bad thing), mostly starches, lots of creatine (I use l-glycine and ALA too for insulin sensitivity), and a “tension” workout with 6-12 rep sets full body to kick off the whole thing. It’s a pretty sick process.

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I would also recommend the ALA in huge amounts on the refeed day. Remember not to go crazy, Read through some of Christian Thib… articles and posts on the “re-feed” He outlines his own parameters pretty well and they happen to be the rules that I follow. I would say 400-500g/carbs MAX on your re-feed day.

No more than 60g/carbs per meal. Keep fat low, but protein up. It really is a fun day, I used to countdown every week to it lol. But you are doing a great job so far keep it up. I would try and get a re-feed in a little sooner if you can, even if its a 24hr re-feed.

Actionjeff:
we are both Bostonians, that explains the conflict! lol GO SOX!

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[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
I would also recommend the ALA in huge amounts on the refeed day. Remember not to go crazy, Read through some of Christian Thibid… articles and posts on the “re-feed” He outlines his own parameters pretty well and they happen to be the rules that I follow. I would say 400-500g/carbs MAX on your re-feed day. No more than 60g/carbs per meal. Keep fat low, but protein up. It really is a fun day, I used to countdown every week to it lol. But you are doing a great job so far keep it up. I would try and get a re-feed in a little sooner if you can, even if its a 24hr re-feed.

Actionjeff:
we are both Bostonians, that explains the conflict! lol GO SOX![/quote]

Notes taken my friend…thank you. Man, I cant wait. For ALA I grind Flax seeds would that do the trick or do I need to supplement?

UPDATE THIS MORNING

I just weighted myself and for the first time in a Lonnng time I am just under 200 pounds. 199.2 Pounds :slight_smile: I measured my waist and wow…I am at 36.5" :slight_smile: My chest is still 48.5" and arms 17.5"…God I am so happy.

I got 1.5" inch off my waist to go to reach my goal not sure if I can make it before my body fat loss slows down but I hope I can reach this before February 7.

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Quick pics to prove that a KETO diet 7 days a week 5 weeks done the right way can keep a lot of muscle (my case 2 more lean pounds) while losing fat.

My waist is coming down to almost 36" now and I am under 200 pounds now. Feel great and the weight loss is still working.

I cant wait to do a REFEED I got very very little glycogen in my muscles with less then 20G carbs a day last 5 weeks.

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damn, you look huge for <200, NJ

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[quote]actionjeff wrote:
damn, you look huge for <200, NJ [/quote]

Thank you :slight_smile: Chris Shugart’s theory on you can look bigger when leaner is dead on correct.

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Finaly getting close to my goal of a 35" waist… now at 35.3"…197 pounds.

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Looking great bud, keep it up. Not many have the will power to diet for so long, so take pride in that! I bet you feel better all around too, I love cutting = )