Keep it simple!

some more comments
ts, you realy think if you squat like a power lifter you will be built like one? and if you squat like a BB you will be built like one? you don’t think power lifter just squat that way cause they can move more wt. that way? have you seen body builders squat? no I don’t think most should squat “like a power lifter” I’d rather use less wt. and get the same overload on my muscles without the stress on my spine but my body would be basicaly the same either way. I do deads (do you?) and they are realy just “power lifter” style squats with the wt. at arms length. should I stop? am I gonna look like paul anderson soon? please tell me.

T-REV, are you not saying that you are the one with the great genetics? I mean if you can recover from these complicated work outs and I can not you must be the geneticaly blessed one, right?(but my deads are up to about 6 for reps and I keep getting stronger and bigger) you can keep putting an uneven load on your spine with single leg squats, gee look at how many people from the forum you will run into at the doc or when you go for ART.

joey z, why do you think there is no best way? hell I guess I could be wrong in thinking HIT is the best way but we are all not that different. why in all other forms of science is there a best way to do things, with very FEW exceptions, yeah there ARE exceptions but they are few and far between. so even if my way is not the best way, there IS a best way. I think its funny that everyone that says “there is no best way” seems to train the same.

TEK, arnold has a couple of books out, do you train 20 sets a body part and work each body part 3x’s per week? its in a book!!! mentzer has books out and I know you will never train like he recomended. why not it’s in a book? go to a H.S. nutrition class and you will be back on the forum saying how they know nothing, but they will read it out of a book. and go buy muscle and fittness and train like they say, someone wrote articles did they not?
peace
hetyey225

Once more I am amazed by the perspectives others bring to what I post to an internet forum.

Man, I’m away from the forum for a couple weeks, and look what happens. I’m always amazed at how personally guys take any differing viewpoints. We’re all smart people by virtue of reading testosterone, and we’re all seekers of knowledge. I’ve taken things personally before too though, so I understand. Let’s all stop taking shots below the belt. Deal?

That said, here's my opinion. It really just depends on your goals. If you want to train for pure aesthetics with no attention on injury prevention, balance, or functionality, go right ahead and use only the basic movements, nautilus machines, or whatever else makes your muscles contract. Personally I have many goals unrelated to appearance... training longevity, general health, and carryover to sport being a few. Of course, I think focusing on these things improves physical appearance as well, but that's only my opinion. In other words, a trainee with strong, defined abdominals and thick forearms looks more powerful and functional than one who never exercises the core or uses functional lifts and therefore lacks these qualities. Then there's the balance issue. Unfortunately, some of you guys seem to be missing this, and it's very important. Being able to keep your body stable under all circumstances has impact well beyond the weight room. And what about flexibility!? These are all things you guys need to be thinking about. The actual hypertrophy and increased power output of your muscles are only part of the equation, and not the most important part in my opinion. And as for athletes, we should stop pretending that balance, adaptation to volume (ie endurance), and resistance to injury aren't the most important parts of training after the foundation of strength and size has been met.

Hetyeh’s last post was a good one, but about this comment of science, it really ticks me off. Mike Mentzer was the absolute king of irrelevant comparisons like this one. First off, if you’re going to classify training as a “science,” you better damn well separate this “science” into about 100,000 different “sciences” based on the different goals of different trainees and different living, nutritional, and equipment situations. How can you possibly characterize one training program as “best” when you don’t even define the goals of a training program!? One may be “best” for a 25 year old focused athlete with unlimited access to equipment and a complete focus on training, and another may be “best” for a 50 year old coach potato with no experience who trains solely for decreased body fat and resistance to injury. And even then, genetics do differ, even if the impact of this genetic difference is small, so therefore individual tweaking will always produce better results. Not to mention the differing mental toughness between trainees. Some can handle 1 hour of pure torture five days a week, and others can barely make themselves train 3 days a week for 30 minutes or they’ll drop the program. Anyway, this got way too long, hopefully I gave you something to think about.

Why is there no best way to train? - Although
we all may be of the same species, we are not in the
same boat. We do have different Goals. There are those
who fancy Renegade Training, which prepares athletes
for REAL LIFE situations. The end product is an athlete
who is STRONG & LEAN, yet still able to perform in the
4th QUARTER OF LIFE!"

Second - if you haven’t noticed, we also have different
BODY TYPES - LEVERAGE POINTS (due to varying limb
lengths)-and HORMONAL PROFILES(which provide
differing rates of recovery)

Third - Different LIFE SITUATIONS: work, school and
family schedules, etc …

Fourth - Presence of an injury or existing condition.
For example- my right shoulder has been acting up lately so
next week I will be leaving the world of Dave Tate
and joining the legion of "Ian King - Disciples.
I will also experiment with some static contractions
and NEG. only training to help heal my right shoulder.


P.S.- I have incorporated Ian King’s “Wave Loading” techniques
on my front squats and have ANNIHILATED previous plateaus;
so it’s not just PHYSIOLOGICAL, Colin! Take Care, Joey Z. ::::----::::

Maybe, we just respect you!? ::::----::::

Ah, but will you still respect me in the morning? [(:-)# >+

I do not understand what different goals have to do with how we train, it has to do with HOW WE EAT!! yes injuries make a difference in exercise selection, as does leverage and MAYBE even goals to a tinny degree but these diffs are in exercise selection not in how we train. if you want to gain wt. (muscle hopefully) you increase cals, if you want to keep your wt. the same you consume the same # of cals, if you want to loose wt. you lower your cals. but under all these conditions we should still train the most effective way for muscle stimulation, recovery, and injury prevention. I do not know why that would change based on “goals”. MAYBE someone trying to stay the same would be happier working out 2-4 times per month and lowering his cals. but when he trains he should train the same way he trained to get to where he is. back to one other thing, as far as injury prevention. I have never seen anyone that put equal effort into a basic routine of say an upper body pushing exercise (and stop, I know ALL muscles are “pulling” muscles), an upper body pulling exercise,squats and dead lifts get hurt, I have just never seen it. could happen cause of bad form, sure. could happen because of existing injuries, sure. but this “program” has “muscle balance” built into it. maybe add some arm work and always inclue int. and ext. cuff work. I know I am rambling now but I don’t understand why “different goals” should effect how we train, diet YES but not how we train. I thought the goal of strength training was to increase the strength of the muscles, why would that change? peace hetyey225

Hetyey, so a bodybuilder, a powerlifter, a strongman, a sprinter, an endurance athlete and a combat athlete should all train the same way, huh? They should just change their diets? I hope that’s not what you meant. If so, then the depth of your ignorance is as bad as your spelling. Please, for the love of God, start reading the actual articles at T-mag instead of just coming here and spouting misinformation. And read Shugart’s post in the Ian King thread. Wait a minute, you’d never do that for fear of learning something. I’ll post it here:

"General observation (not aimed at you Colin): Many people get hung up
on the “right way” to train or eat or whatever. They get in a lot of
arguments about these topics. This often leads some people into a
state of stagnation. In other words, trying something new would make
them feel like they were wrong about their ideas. So instead of risking
being wrong (the horror!), they stick to the same old way of training or
dieting and never try new things. They’d rather bitch and moan about
how everyone else is wrong and they’re right, instead of just trying
something out to see for themselves. That’s ashamed because there is
no right way. It’s a case of being stubborn combined with having low
self-esteem (and therefore the person just CAN’T be wrong about
anything or even listen to other people’s ideas); this leads to a negative
attitude, a perpetual immaturity, and ultimately stagnated progress in
the gym. I’ve noticed a lot of this kind of attitude on this forum lately. I
assume those with this attitude are very young or very new to
bodybuilding and therefore they can be forgiven.

Hey, I don’t agree with everything Ian or any other coach writes, but I
try it all before I start bashing a particular idea. In fact, I don’t even
agree with all the stuff I’ve written a few years ago! The key is to be
openminded and to be open to change. Check the ego at the door, try
new things, and put your energy into positive progression, not petty
bickering and internet “tough guy” or “know-it-all” personas that usually
reflect some sort of overcompensation on the part of the “tough guy”. "

I should say that while I’m a big fan of keeping it simple, things like wave loading, overloads, heavy negatives, compensatory accleration training, etc. can be great, depending on your goals. They obviously work. I just think that sometimes people (myself included) can get carried away with different training principles and make things overcomplicated. Most of us here in the T-Mag forum are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to training; while of course this is a good thing, it can also cause a bad case of “analysis paralysis”. For me it’s good to step back occasionally and return to basics. Keeps me focused on my goals. Just my two cents.

So Hetyeh, you think, for example, that a 50 year old mother of 5, weighing 200lbs, wanting nothing more than to lose weight, should train the same way as a 25 year old football athlete with comparatively weak arms and posterior chain? I’m sorry bro, but I just don’t see it. Surely, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point. Training, as well as diet, must be tailored based on goals.

Sorry, I just read the very last part of your message, and you’re very wrong in that the only goal of weight training is to be bigger and stronger. Try telling a lightweight wrestler that his goal in the weight room is hypertrophy. He seeks increased power output and injury prevention exclusively, with no attention to hypertrophy whatsoever. So given this goal, or focus of training, his program needs to be tailored to meet these needs. Of course, you could argue that he train the same way as everybody else, yet only decrease calories, but that in itself may create an environment where he loses strength rather than gains. But if he’s trained appropriately, this doesn’t have to happen.

outside of practiceing their sport, HELL YES. tell me why they should not.

you said you just read the end of my post, I thought the last thing I said was that if the point of strength training was to increase the strength of the muscles why should that change. wait that IS what I said. tell me why they should TRAIN differently. realy I want to know. and you gave an example based on an existing weekness. tell me what muscles are NOT important to the 50 year old women and tell me what muscles are not important to the football player. if you give me a reason why they should TRAIN differently I will be more then happy to listen. frequency may be different because of the womens age and recovery ability but HOW they strength train, why would it be any different? and remember I did say injuries and pre-existing conditions may have an effect. if the goal of strength training is to increase the strength of the muscles why would it need to be different from one to another? I REALY WANT A REASON SO PLEASE GIVE ME ANY YOU MAY HAVE. remember I take none of this shit personaly so I hope no one else does (well when an idiot, not you, calls me names and that person has an I.Q. of an embryo whos moms on coke, I may get testy but it will never effect my life or my mood). peace

It’s fun arguing with hetyey. You can win the argument just by letting him respond and make a fool out of himself. Listen guy, every top expert in this field, those who do this for a living with years of experience and degrees out the ass, would agree that you’re wrong. But hey, why would they know better than a bartender, huh?

And by the way, you’re barking up the wrong tree by arguing with Doug Santillo. Then again, you probably have no idea he has articles published in T-mag, do you? I ask you, have you ever read a single article in T-mag? Why don’t you submit an article to them since you know more than their experts and all?

tek, your explanation as to WHY was so thought pravokeing I am astounded I did not think of it earlier!!! great points, ALL OF THEM!!! you are my idol. realy you are an idiot (please say that to yourself as it is said on ren and stimpy).

Yes, Tek, Doug S. is QUITE SHARP, and we are grateful for his
contributions. On that note, you also have a few STRONG points
yourself, but please, let’s try to stay away from the “bartender” stuff!
Now let’s take another whack at hetyey’s question. Since training is a
stimulus, just as a drug compound is a stimulus, one MUST either vary
or increase the stimulus in order to keep benefiting from the drug or the
training. Why? We as a race have an incredible knack for adapting or
else we would have become EXTINCT eons and eons ago. So instead of
adding more volume to the workout or taking more of a medication,
which would lead to an overdose in both situations, the SMART DR.
changes the medication, and the SMART trainer changes the routine!
New antibiotics are being synthesized in the laboratory all the time
because scientists know that germs have an intelligence and are able
to adapt through mutation. I have a hunch that my body is just as smart
as those germs… IT MUST BE BECAUSE I’M STILL AROUND!
Joey Z. ::::----::::

TEK, getting an article published means exactly jack shit. The strength coaches for the Washington Redskins, the Michigan Wolverines, and Penn State all train their athletes using HIT, does that mean that HIT is the best and you are wrong and pig headed? The guys who write for freaking T-Mag don’t even agree, all that that means is that for every disagreement at least one of the parties (if not both) is (at least partly) wrong.

My point with the bartenter comment is this: Heytey loves to jump into threads and criticize Louie Simmons, Coach Davies, Ian King, Poliquin, and just about everyone else, except poor “suicided” Mentzer of course. Yet it’s painfully obvious that heyyet knows shit when it comes to this field. I cringe that the mods even allow some of his bad info on the forum.

Now, if he knows so much and is so superior to these proven coaches who train professional and Olympic athletes and bodybuilders, then where are his gold medal winning clients, his articles and books, his championship rings, his world record holding athletes? All the coaches he bashes have those things. Now, if I had a question about booze, I’d ask the bartender and listen to him closely and with respect. I would not jump across the bar and pretend to be an expert because I saw “Cocktail” a few years ago. But we’re talking about training here, something he’s proven over and over again that he knows nothing about. I haven’t a clue why he comes here just to pollute this great forum, especially since he doesn’t seem to even like T-mag or what it stands for.

So I call you out again: submit an article (on training or diet, not mixing drinks) to T-mag or anywhere else. Enlighten us. Share your wisdom. Put up or shut up.

There are many ways to train(duh). They tend to ellicit different responses from the human body, and the response will vary from body to body. I believe most would agree with these statements…UNLESS you believe there can only be one way to train. Still even if you believe there is only one way to train(oohhh let’s take HIT for example, shall we) you cannot possibly believe that everyone had/have/has the same response to this training. Wouldn’t everybody look like Casey Viator(was it him?) after 28 days. This point,different responses from different bodies to one “type” of training, most definately proves the original statement. There are many ways to train(duh). TEK, thanks for putting that quote in from Shugart. Everyone should read and reread those statements.

Hetyey: I read your earlier post in which you question whether there is a difference between a powerlifting squat and a regular squat in training effect other than the powerlifting squat allowing one to lift more weight (due to better leverages I assume). I have to disagree with this comment based on my limited knowledge of body mechanics and more importantly, personal experience. I believe that a PL squat will allow one to lift more weight if the glute-hamstrings-lower back are strong enough, but not otherwise. Some time ago I discovered that my slightly below parallel PL squat was actually WEAKER than my rock bottom BB squat. The reason being that my hammies and hips were (relatively) pathetic. As I continued to use a PL squat, and concentrated on extra glute/ham work, my PL squat increased and became stronger than my high bar BB squat. Moreover, I can feel my hammies working much harder when I PL squat a few inches below parallel than when I OL squat (even when taken to rock bottom). It is more than just having better leverage (low bar squatting and wide stance), certain muscles are being used to a much greater extent. In my experience, a squat is not a squat. Variations matter based on the training effect you are after. A front squat will stress the quads more than a back squat. A high-bar close-stance back squat stresses the quads relatively more than a low bar PL squat. As you rightly note, a deadlift is essentially a squat with the weight held in front of body instead of on the shoulders. Yet (as I am sure you have noticed) the DL places relatively more stress on the hip extensors than a conventional BB squat. The point is – different forms stress different muscles.

Another illustration: the bench press. I used to be an elbow at 90 deg. bencher. I was much stronger benching in this manner than when my elbows were pointed towards my feet. The reason being that my triceps were relatively weak. By benching at 90 deg. I was masking my weakness. When I changed my benching style, my weights went down temporarily. I could feel the new benching style in my tris more than I had at the 90 deg. style. When my tricep strength improved, my bench greatly surpassed my previous bench strength. You asked in one of your posts whether or not everyone’s goal was to get stronger and thus to put on muscle (or words to that effect). The short answer is “no.” Speaking only for myself, increased muscle mass is a secondary goal for me at best. Yes, I would like to add about 20 lbs of muscle (about 10 of those lbs need to be regained from a lengthy training layoff), but my main goal is strength, not mass. My plan is to compete at PL’ing at 181 lbs (I currently weigh 160.5 #) and attempt to achieve a > 2x BW bench (i.e., about 385) and a 3x BW squat (i.e., about 545). I want to eventually run a sub 5 sec 40 yard dash. I also wish to eventually learn and compete at Olympic Lifting (right now my only goal is to eventually perform a BW snatch). While diet certainly will play a role in my eventual success at achieving these goals (and I have no doubt that I will achieve all of the foregoing), my method(s) of training will certainly be the most important factor. I must strive to increase my neural efficiency with regular low rep training. I will need to perfect my form in the competition lifts and in sprinting form. I will need to improve my limit stength, reversal strength, starting strength, explosive strength and acceleration strength. I will need to work on my mini-max for each of the three lifts PL lifts. I will need to improve my speed, speed-strength and strength-speed. I will need to identify the muscles which are holding my lifts back and make them stronger. I will need to do any number of things that are not encompassed in a generic program – ANY generic program, whether HIT or GVT. These are my goals. They may not be yours, they may not be anybody else’s on this board or on this planet (although I am sure there are a few kindred spirits here). I hope that you reach your goals (and surpass them) whatever they may be. However, I strongly disagree with any implication that the method you go about achieving your goals is the best way, most efficient way, or an equally good way for me to achieve my goals. This is not to say that I cannot learn from or apply the methods that you use to my training – certainly I can (indeed, I plan to use HIT-based methods for 8 weeks out of the next 34 weeks of my periodization plan). But I also plan to use elements from Louie Simmons’ WSB method, the Korte 3x3 plan, the Chris Thibideau (sp?) APRE cybernetic periodisation plan, modified German volume training, Poliquin’s 2-day workouts, the traditional pyramid progression plan, the Husker Power plan and Jay Schroeder’s evo-sport training methods and many other influences over the next 3 years.

If you are interested, my short-run plan over the next 34 weeks is something like this (subject to change based on the rate at which these programs bring me closer to my goals): (1) 4 weeks on a WSB program; (2) 2 weeks of a 2-a-day workouts; (3) 2 weeks of HIT; (4) 2 weeks of 2-a-days; (5) 2 weeks of HIT-based program; (6) 4 weeks of WSB program; (7) 3 weeks of GVT; (8) 2 weeks of HIT; (9) 3 weeks of GVT; (10) 2 weeks of HIT; and (11) 8 weeks of WSB. The thing that all of my programs will have in common (other than hard work and dedication on my part) is that is that they will all focus primarily on variations of basic pushing, pulling and squat movements (the variations will be based on my perceived needs at the time) with the addition of assistance exercises for identified weak points. At various times I will lift light weights very quickly, at other times heavy weights more slowly, sometimes I will use slow negatives (however, at all times I will lift as explosively as possible using compensatory acceleration), other times I will use very fast negatives, sometimes I will use accomdating resistance (i.e., bands and chains), sometimes I will use contrast methods (weight releasers, and other post-tetonic potentiation methods such as the 1-6 method, among others), I will occasionally use static training and functional isometrics, at various times I will have long rests between sets, at various times short rests between sets, sometimes I will push to failure, other times I will leave a little in the tank, sometimes I will use high volume (up to 36 sets per day 5 days per week), other times I will use very low volume (10 sets per day -- training 2x per week).

The point is, my plan is based on my goals and needs, not yours. I know I will succeed in my goals because I am not locked into my general framework and I will tailor my plan to fit my needs. I am also confident in my eventual success because I am not locked into a particular training dogma. Based on my training experiences and training knowledge (which I dare say is fairly large compared with your average gym rat, personal trainer and even compares favorably, I dare say, with some strength and conditioning coaches), I do not accept that one size fits all when it comes to the training of an athlete.

If I have misinterpreted any of your comments, I appologize. I am sure you will correct me. I await your response.

Sincerely,

Matthew A. Levy