I don’t know why a lot of you are taking this as an attack on “the white man.” It is obvious there were some problems with the relief effort, and while I don’t agree with this assessment, people are questioning whether or not it has to do with the fact that the people left in NO are predominantly black. Your responses of “oh yeah blame the white man,” are equally ignorant. Piece together a coherent argument to the contrary, or stop labelling them racist and getting defensive because your argument is just as poor as theirs.
There isn’t a reason to claim that your position as a white person in America is being attacked. There has been a long standing bias in media to report things that will appeal to mainstream America, and unfortunately, this often means appealing to a white audience. One example is that Hispanic lady who went missing in New York and the news took a few days, and someone actually calling them out to report, whereas we hear about cases like Lacy Peterson and that other dumbass from Florida who ran away from her wedding the second they happen.
There are probably a variety of explanations for the time it took to respond to this crisis, but I don’t blame people for being skeptical because of the poor race-relations this country is having and have been existent for awhile now. I still don’t think what Kanye did was appropriate, but I do understand why he said what he said…it doesn’t make him a crackhead or asshat, but it does make him a pissed off citizen voicing his opinion in the only national venue he had available to him.
[quote]coloradosteve wrote:
Well, when someone on tv starts calling white people racist, don’t expect us white folk to start being too cordial. Wow, in a national crisis this idiot, West, wants to start a race riot. Yeah, he is a fucking crackhead.[/quote]
From what I saw on the clip he said “George Bush doesn’t like black people”, not, “coloradosteve and all his honkey friends hate blacks”. Now I haven’t had the patience to read every post on this thread, but I highly doubt Kayne West is trying to start a “race riot”. He is merley using the platform afforded to him because of the sucess he has had in the music industry in what he percieves a positive way to bring about change. It is not the first time celeb’s have spoken freely and have the OPPORTUNITY to speak freely because of there succes about issues which they take to heart. While it may seem tacky for him to make that statement in the context he did, let’s face it, his point was heard and that is the outcome I am sure he had hoped for. This does not classify him as a “fucking crackhead” but rather a logical person using the means available to him to make a blunt statement which he hopes will bring about changes.
Can’t anyone see that MuscleMachine17 is, in all probability, a 17 year old kid who idolizes a successful musician and therefore believes everything he says on mere conviction. I’d like to tackle a few points with you today. Firstly, as a musician, calling Kanye West a musical genius is an insult to the artform. I love rock music, and even some rap is appealing for a workout, but take an audio trip down the jazz or classical lane to see some truly gifted people.
Also, why in the world are you victimizing black people? This victim mentality is exactly what keeps primarily black areas impoverished, the feeling that the government(or the white man, as they seem to be interchangable to you) owes you something. The guy from Sweden hit the nail on the head, no where in the world but American do minorities, most notibly blacks, have such wonderful opportunities to better themselves, so calling the race card for everything that is wrong in black society is getting ridiculous. One of my black friends made a 150 on the LSAT coupled with a 3.0 GPA and got into the best law schools in the country. I am happy for her, but a white person with the same exact scores could not even get into a single accredited law school in Georgia, much less Yale University. On GWB, he called the Mayor of NO several days in advance advising a mandatory evacuation. What if he would have overridden the primarily black government of NO and declared martial law himself and the hurricane never hit?
He would have been labeled a baffoon and a racist for not believing in the black mayor of NO. The administration had no idea where exactly the hurricane would hit, and as another person said, the disaster area in the size of Great Britain, and the fact that rescuers are being fired upon for attempting to help doesn’t help their situation.
The fact that Kanye West turns this disaster into a racial war, as is common among people who victimize themselves, is extremly myopic in perspective and racist to boot.
There comes a time when people have to start taking personal responsibility for their actions and lifestyles instead of looking to the government for their every need(which sounds lot like socialism to me). The time is now, and a person’s true character emerges when put in a situation like this…
[quote]MuscleMachine17 wrote:
Whatever, at the end of the day pc- politicians like yourself don’t make any change on public opinion. Respect known people like Kanye do.
So fuck yall.[/quote]
Spoken like a true expert.
Geez - what a wonderful example of our public education system.
Does successful musical entertainer work better for you?[/quote]
Yep.
Who said it was easy? I said he wasn’t a genius. He is a good businessman, presumably, but in 15 years, no one will care what he made or how he made it.
Several days in advance? Bullshit. I couldn’t find anything else in your post worth responding to.[/quote]
Don’t know about severak days in advance, but:
“Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.”
[quote]MuscleMachine17 wrote:
Whatever, at the end of the day pc- politicians like yourself don’t make any change on public opinion. Respect known people like Kanye do.
So fuck yall.[/quote]
I don’t know which is worse: the fact that this is patently false or that someone actually thinks this, but mroe to your point: most people that are engaged in politics, regardless of party, have only one thing to say about that.
“Kanye who?”
Unlikely this guy is the man ‘to get things done’ even by your own standard of ‘respect known people’ (whatever the hell that is).
“Why did it take five days for Bush to help” has been the mantra voiced constantly by all the “Talking Heads” on TV. Here are the reasons.
It is against the law for any President to order troops into a city or across state lines without a request and permission from the Governor of that state.
John Armor, a First Amendment lawyer and one of my favorite writers, told me, “Federal law prevents the President from sending in the National Guard until the Governor gives the order. It is little known, but the Commanding General of the National Guard in every state reports to the Governor, not the President, until the Governor says otherwise. US military units (regular Army, not the Guard) cannot be used because of the Posse Comitatus law, until the Guard has been authorized.”
According to some news sources, the Governor of Louisiana who knew the levees were weak, who knew that the city had been slowly sinking and who knew that a major # 5 hurricane was approaching her city did not call Washington for help.
The Mayor of New Orleans did call for evacuation over a loud-speaker, but did nothing to be sure that the police went door-to-door followed by transportation to pick up all those who did not have cars or any ability to leave. There was no other leadership practiced by the mayor as there had been in New York City during 9/11 by Mayor Giuliani.
The hurricane veered east and saved New Orleans, Brian Williams announced a week ago and all breathed a sigh of relief until, the levies broke a day or two later allowing the surrounding waters to pour into the city.
It was this predicted levee failure which had been ignored for so long that doomed the local people to be held hostage in their attics or on rooftops, not the storm. It was also the failure of the local bureaucrats and local elected leaders to maintain law and order and to have pre-arranged for complete evacuations of the city. It was only after a request went out to the President that troops could be sent in. Can you imagine the anti-Bush media screaming that Bush had invaded Louisiana as he had done in Iraq if he had done this before being asked? I can just imagine The New York Times headlining, “A Repeat of Shock and Awe by Bush!”
[quote]WguitarG wrote:
Can’t anyone see that MuscleMachine17 is, in all probability, a 17 year old kid who idolizes a successful musician and therefore believes everything he says on mere conviction. I’d like to tackle a few points with you today. Firstly, as a musician, calling Kanye West a musical genius is an insult to the artform. I love rock music, and even some rap is appealing for a workout, but take an audio trip down the jazz or classical lane to see some truly gifted people.
Also, why in the world are you victimizing black people? This victim mentality is exactly what keeps primarily black areas impoverished, the feeling that the government(or the white man, as they seem to be interchangable to you) owes you something. The guy from Sweden hit the nail on the head, no where in the world but American do minorities, most notibly blacks, have such wonderful opportunities to better themselves, so calling the race card for everything that is wrong in black society is getting ridiculous. One of my black friends made a 150 on the LSAT coupled with a 3.0 GPA and got into the best law schools in the country. I am happy for her, but a white person with the same exact scores could not even get into a single accredited law school in Georgia, much less Yale University. On GWB, he called the Mayor of NO several days in advance advising a mandatory evacuation. What if he would have overridden the primarily black government of NO and declared martial law himself and the hurricane never hit?
He would have been labeled a baffoon and a racist for not believing in the black mayor of NO. The administration had no idea where exactly the hurricane would hit, and as another person said, the disaster area in the size of Great Britain, and the fact that rescuers are being fired upon for attempting to help doesn’t help their situation.
The fact that Kanye West turns this disaster into a racial war, as is common among people who victimize themselves, is extremly myopic in perspective and racist to boot.
There comes a time when people have to start taking personal responsibility for their actions and lifestyles instead of looking to the government for their every need(which sounds lot like socialism to me). The time is now, and a person’s true character emerges when put in a situation like this…[/quote]
Several days in advance? Bullshit. I couldn’t find anything else in your post worth responding to.
Don’t know about severak days in advance, but:
“Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.”
Thanks, Sparky, but I doubt anyone is avoiding acknowledging that an order was placed. I also know that when they gave the public order to evacuate, without transportation, it was clear that many of those people weren’t going anywhere. It wasn’t “several days” in advance. It was about 24 hours.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Thanks, Sparky, but I doubt anyone is avoiding acknowledging that an order was placed. I also know that when they gave the public order to evacuate, without transportation, it was clear that many of those people weren’t going anywhere. It wasn’t “several days” in advance. It was about 24 hours.[/quote]
Well, the purpose of me posting that was to corroborate that had Bush urged the Governor to evacuate. If you read my post, I actually concurred with you that it didn’t sound like the urging was done several days in advance. I was looking to provide a source for Wguitar’s claim for those that hadn’t heard that Bush actually recommended that NO be evacuated.
If you could read, you’d see that I wasn’t disagreeing with you or refuting your point, merely providing a source.
Other cities used school buses to ship those out of these areas.
New Orleans for whatever reason didn’t and if you watch some of the video you will see these buses swamped under water.
Also, even if they called for a mass evacuation, some would have STILL stayed. Hurricanes are a way of life in the Big Easy and if you aren’t drinking them, you are boarding up your windows for the next gift from mother nature to knock on their door.
[quote]WguitarG wrote:
Can’t anyone see that MuscleMachine17 is, in all probability, a 17 year old kid who idolizes a successful musician and therefore believes everything he says on mere conviction. I’d like to tackle a few points with you today. Firstly, as a musician, calling Kanye West a musical genius is an insult to the artform. I love rock music, and even some rap is appealing for a workout, but take an audio trip down the jazz or classical lane to see some truly gifted people. [/quote]
Matter of opinion I guess.[quote]
Also, why in the world are you victimizing black people? This victim mentality is exactly what keeps primarily black areas impoverished, the feeling that the government(or the white man, as they seem to be interchangable to you) owes you something. [/quote]
I don’t think this is “exactly” what keeps black areas impoverished. A lot of the problem is more closely linked to the education systems in predominately poor neighborhoods, as well as the environment and families poor people are raised in…it tends to hold true for all races, not just blacks who “blame the white man.”
[quote]
The guy from Sweden hit the nail on the head, no where in the world but American do minorities, most notibly blacks, have such wonderful opportunities to better themselves, so calling the race card for everything that is wrong in black society is getting ridiculous. One of my black friends made a 150 on the LSAT coupled with a 3.0 GPA and got into the best law schools in the country. I am happy for her, but a white person with the same exact scores could not even get into a single accredited law school in Georgia, much less Yale University. [/quote]
I agree that sometimes the race card gets thrown out when it shouldn’t…like the time Rush said made that comment about Donovan McNabb…I thought it was ridiculous that he was getting blasted for it because I saw what his point was. I don’t think that race was the issue in the problems sending aid into the region, but it was a factor in the media’s portrayal of blacks in this instance.
We are judged for the actions we do take, not what might have happened.
I don’t think anyone needs to victimize anyone in this situation as there are obviously victims here. I’d like you to clear up what was so racist about his statements. He said what he felt happened…his statements came in response to actions(or inaction’s) that he felt affected a community he related to.
[quote]
There comes a time when people have to start taking personal responsibility for their actions and lifestyles instead of looking to the government for their every need(which sounds lot like socialism to me). The time is now, and a person’s true character emerges when put in a situation like this…[/quote]
I think, unfortunately too, that statements like this are getting easier and easier for people to make so that they can shift responsibility away from themselves and rationalize their positions on political matters; especially since most’ve us have not lived under the same circumstances those we judge do…
As citizens in this country, and the world for that matter, we have a responsibility to each other to see that good is done throughout. Instead of saying “it’s their responsibility” why don’t you ask what you could do to change the situation so everyone could go to sleep in a bed, under a roof, and with a full stomach. It’s a bit naive and utopian I know, but it’s much better than your attitude of “fuck it, let them worry about themselves.”
Also, even if they called for a mass evacuation, some would have STILL stayed. Hurricanes are a way of life in the Big Easy and if you aren’t drinking them, you are boarding up your windows for the next gift from mother nature to knock on their door.[/quote]
Tell me something I don’t know. I’m from Houston. No one evacuates in Houston (even though I can’t remember ever being hit with a hurricane this large growing up). The entire city buys ply wood and simply accepts that they will be picking up shingles after it passes.
No one in the south is amazed by that fact or in the dark about it. The anger that you saw from many is based on the slow response from the national guard extending to every other form of support.
As far as the buses, again, there were about 24 hours or less for people to even respond to an evacuation order. Mind you, the first we heard anything about it was late Sunday morning. By that time, if you hadn’t already hit the road, you had a very slim chance of making it out of the city considering the entire interstate was gridlocked…including back roads. No one knew where this thing was headed before Saturday afternoon…and even then it changed course.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
On GWB, he called the Mayor of NO several days in advance advising a mandatory evacuation. What if he would have overridden the primarily black government of NO and declared martial law himself and the hurricane never hit?
[/quote]
Several days in advance? Who is spreading this? No one even knew it would hit NO several days in advance. Why lie?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The anger that you saw from many is based on the slow response from the national guard extending to every other form of support.
[/quote]
Slow is a relative term. While I pray for these people and have given money and clothing to help, I think that we have to also realize not everything out of their mouth is valid.
They don’t understand the scope of this devastation because they are so entrenched in it.
Also, WE really don’t understand it. You are gathering all your facts from TV but to be honest, TV is having a hard time covering this because of the limitations of braodcasting in these messed up areas.
My TV station sent a reporter and photogragher with a air force c-5 plane a couple days ago. They just got back today.
The response seemed slow because factors popped up that made for some insane obstacles.
While it’s fun to sit here and debate like we all know what we are talking about, we really don’t.
[quote]Oogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The anger that you saw from many is based on the slow response from the national guard extending to every other form of support.
Slow is a relative term. While I pray for these people and have given money and clothing to help, I think that we have to also realize not everything out of their mouth is valid.
They don’t understand the scope of this devastation because they are so entrenched in it.
Also, WE really don’t understand it. You are gathering all your facts from TV but to be honest, TV is having a hard time covering this because of the limitations of braodcasting in these messed up areas.
My TV station sent a reporter and photogragher with a air force c-5 plane a couple days ago. They just got back today.
The response seemed slow because factors popped up that made for some insane obstacles.
While it’s fun to sit here and debate like we all know what we are talking about, we really don’t.
[/quote]
Actually, we get minor briefings on this because some of these people are being sent to the military bases that can support them (not to mention the many active duty who have family in that area who relay messages). My knowledge is not just from television.
Late means being 2 days late as people died. While old people died in their wheelchairs…or in their houses…or in the street because no one could even formulate how to get water to these people. You can attempt to make excuses…but I doubt many people are beliving it.
[quote]dryden1001 wrote:
People like Kayne West make me sick. Who the hell is he to condemn the rescue efforts? Last I heard hes a rapper/music producer so that must make him an automatic authority on how to execute a rescue operation.
Kayne does have experience in the military conducting similar rescue operations doesnt he? He does have experience in wetland engineering and therefore is somewhat knowledgeable about draining a plot of land doesnt he? He has attained his M.D. so that he might be able to grasp the medical risks being faced by the rescue forces doesnt he? He doesnt?
You mean hes just a rapper/music producer? Maybe we should listen to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about before we take sides on an issue such as this. It is a shame that this tragedy has occurred. It is undeniable that the majority of those affected by this disaster are poor and black.
It is undeniable that rescue efforts have been slow in coming. But does that automatically make this an issue of race? Are these people victims of a disaster because they are black? Or is it because they had no other way of escaping the area? Where are the upstanding black members of New Orleans? The medias portrayal of this situation would have you believe that they didnt evacuate, sat there through the storm, and are now the victims of a delayed rescue operation because of their skin color. I assure you that that is not the case
They evacuated just as their white skinned neighbors. Maybe, just maybe, the rescue efforts regarding New Orleans is not a matter of race, but rather a matter of safety for the victims, the rescuers, and the whole country. Perhaps the United States has never encountered the daunting task of rescuing an entire city that has been flooded with its own sewage and chemical waste.
Perhaps the United States has never faced the task of preventing a massive outbreak of widespread, resilient bacterial infections. Perhaps the United States has never faced the task of trying to save those who will shoot at the very people attempting to rescue them in the morbidly mistaken belief that if we shoot at the rescuers then they will save us more quickly. To blame the slow coming relief effort on one man is ludicrous.
The President has already localized several thousand Army National Guard troops, signed a $10.5 billion measure (intended as a downpayment on what will be a larger amount in the coming weeks) to speed Federal aid to those areas devastated by Hurricane Katrina, and he has publicly acknowledged that the rescue efforts so far had been unacceptable. What more can he do? He is the President not Superman. He cannot fly down and scoop up the victims of this storm. The fact is that this is an unprecedented occurrence and that tactical errors will be made in resolving this clusterfuck. Now is not the time to throw around unfounded accusations and incite emotional responses. The United States must adapt and overcome the horrible circumstances surrounding this disaster so that we may rescue those who are in need and start the process of rebuilding a city. [/quote]
I agree that being a rapper/music producer does not make someone an automatic authority on how to execute a rescue operation, unfortunately, neither does being with the International Arabian Horse Association.
While I admire Kanye West as a rapper/music producer (I own The College Dropout and Late Registration along with some Jay-Z CDs on which he has produced tracks) I don’t think racism was the primary reason for the federal government’s poor response. IMHO incompetance and shortsightedness are to blame, two traits that when embodied in an agency such as FEMA or a president can be precursors to catastrophe.