[quote]JKThreeEleven17 wrote:
bkerne wrote:
It may be that his testosterone levels were just unnaturally high, but I believe it has to do with carbon isotopes in testosterone. There is normally very little carbon-13 in our own naturally made testosterone. I remember hearing that one test examines the ratio of carbon-12:carbon-13 in testosterone of athletes.
Synthesized testosterone is made with much more carbon-13 than is in the natural testosterone, thus indicating that it is testosterone from an outside source. I am not positive about this, just remember reading something about this type of test and think that it may be what they mean by abnormal levels of test, that is the high carbon-13 containing test.
-BKerne
This is from John Berardi’s Steroid Manifesto Part III (found on his website):
"Since there are serious problems with the T/E ratio for detecting steroid use (the current method), a new technique is being proposed for use. This technique uses IRMS (isotope ratio mass spectrometry) to distinguish exogenous Testosterone from endogenous Testosterone. Since Testosterone is made up of carbon atoms and different carbon atoms have different weights, IRMS can figure out how many of the lighter carbons (C12) and how many of the heavy carbons (C13) are around.
Endogenous Testosterone (naturally produced) is made up of 98.9% C12 and 1.1% C13. If any Testosterone shows up in the urine that doesn’t contain these percentages, it’s suspected that the person is using exogenous Testosterone."[/quote]
[quote]etaco wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
hockechamp14 wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
hockechamp14 wrote:
They wouldn’t be the ones setting records if they didn’t use the drugs. If you want to be the best these days, it’s what you have to do.
Wrong. Not if every record is going to get thrown out because of a failed drug test and the athlete banned from the sport. Which Gatlin, at least, is in serious danger of.
They wouldn’t have been able to break the records in the first place then. Face it, many of these drugs have been in use for some time. Think about it, if you were going to dedicate your life to be the best at something, would you already tell yourself, “well, lets see, I’m not going to take any drugs because I’m afraid of a positive” and deny yourself any chance whatsoever of being the best?
If it’s clear that the best will be so rigorously tested that they cannot get away with any illegal performance enhancement, it will have to end. That hasn’t been the case. But I think it’s headed in that direction. And I welcome it. But I do thing the current tests that compare the test-epitest ratio are poorly designed.
And the government is going to win the war on drugs. Right.
If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying. These guys are dedicated enough push themselves to the limit and in many sports put their lives on the line to be the best. Think about all the wierd shit people do to get even the most minute advantage. The line between cheating and smart prepartion isn’t always so clear anyway. This is a losing battle.[/quote]
Mmm. Perhaps. In that case, I welcome every new record in sports such as track, cycling, and swimming to simply be a ‘preliminary’ record. Let’s not all get too excited. Gotta wait for the investigation and certification. Oh, that one’s stricken and the athlete banned. Too bad. Hey, remember that 4x200 meter relay two weeks ago. Everyone’s come back clern. They reported on CNN today. New world record. Let’s celebrate. Awesome.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Justin Gatlin, tied for the 100 meter world record, has also reported failing a drug test. His A sample and B sample showed an ‘unusually high level of testosterone’.
I really don’t understand. Possibility A: these athletes are really all incredibly stupid, dumber than shitstains in fact, to use when they will clearly get caught at it.
Scenario B: there is something seriously wrong with these tests. I lean towards Scenario B.
I don’t understand how all these elite level athletes in different sports could be so fucking stupid to use when they know how strict testing is becoming and the scrutiny they’re under.[/quote]
The majority, if not all of these top athletes are at it, it’s just a shame he got caught. It’s shit the way it brings a bad name to the sport though.
[quote]superscience wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Justin Gatlin, tied for the 100 meter world record, has also reported failing a drug test. His A sample and B sample showed an ‘unusually high level of testosterone’.
I really don’t understand. Possibility A: these athletes are really all incredibly stupid, dumber than shitstains in fact, to use when they will clearly get caught at it.
Scenario B: there is something seriously wrong with these tests. I lean towards Scenario B.
I don’t understand how all these elite level athletes in different sports could be so fucking stupid to use when they know how strict testing is becoming and the scrutiny they’re under.
The majority, if not all of these top athletes are at it, it’s just a shame he got caught. It’s shit the way it brings a bad name to the sport though.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree. The way I’m seeing it, the recent athletes in the news are the first casualties of new, stricter scrutiny. Really, thet are no different than anyone else. They just happened to be the first ones to suffer in a new environement that no longer allows athletes to get away with what has up till now been the status quo.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Like it or not, the genie is out of the bottle with steroids and professional sports. If we could somehow see who ACTUALLY used drugs, I’m sure we would be astonished at how many records are held buy steroid users. Since we will all suspect new champions anyway, and since there is a large chance of not catching them anyway, why should we worry about doping in sports anymore? Just let them do it.
I myself am sick and tired of seeing the congress of the US holding hearings on things like steroids, when many of those same congressmen will stand up and defend till the death a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body. Isn’t this an even clearer case of a person choosing what they want to do with THEIR body? Are they harming anyone else in the process? Not a chance.[/quote]
It’s a little more complicated than that. If we just simply have total acceptance of steroid use in sports, we are essentially forcing every athlete to use whether they want to or not to be on equal footing. Unless you simply assume that ALL high-level athletes use and have always been using. I would not go so far as to say that. Records and who is ‘the best’ also lose meaning if we’re comparing steorid users to those who have never used.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
Like it or not, the genie is out of the bottle with steroids and professional sports. If we could somehow see who ACTUALLY used drugs, I’m sure we would be astonished at how many records are held buy steroid users. Since we will all suspect new champions anyway, and since there is a large chance of not catching them anyway, why should we worry about doping in sports anymore? Just let them do it.
I myself am sick and tired of seeing the congress of the US holding hearings on things like steroids, when many of those same congressmen will stand up and defend till the death a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body. Isn’t this an even clearer case of a person choosing what they want to do with THEIR body? Are they harming anyone else in the process? Not a chance.[/quote]
i’m completely agree with this. and i’m shocked that anyone would want to trade their freedoms for the police state that’s being created to “clean up” sports.
i find it especially frightening the way people are sucked into dick pound’s phony, altruistic bullshit. dick pound’s mission is not to “clean up” sports. if sports were clean tomorrow do you think he’d just go away ? no chance. his mission is to rise to power and enjoy it’s benefits. he’s a parasite.
sport is an art form practiced by athletes and coaches and they should have the freedom to push themselves and make whatever choices they see fit to make. it’s nobody else’s business.
[quote]swivel wrote:
MODOK wrote:
Like it or not, the genie is out of the bottle with steroids and professional sports. If we could somehow see who ACTUALLY used drugs, I’m sure we would be astonished at how many records are held buy steroid users. Since we will all suspect new champions anyway, and since there is a large chance of not catching them anyway, why should we worry about doping in sports anymore? Just let them do it.
I myself am sick and tired of seeing the congress of the US holding hearings on things like steroids, when many of those same congressmen will stand up and defend till the death a woman’s right to choose what she does with her body. Isn’t this an even clearer case of a person choosing what they want to do with THEIR body? Are they harming anyone else in the process? Not a chance.
i’m completely agree with this. and i’m shocked that anyone would want to trade their freedoms for the police state that’s being created to “clean up” sports.
i find it especially frightening the way people are sucked into dick pound’s phony, altruistic bullshit. dick pound’s mission is not to “clean up” sports. if sports were clean tomorrow do you think he’d just go away ? no chance. his mission is to rise to power and enjoy it’s benefits. he’s a parasite.
sport is an art form practiced by athletes and coaches and they should have the freedom to push themselves and make whatever choices they see fit to make. it’s nobody else’s business. [/quote]
You realize how many of those must be held by juicers.
In that case…how many are going to be tossed out? What if the ones that stand simply can’t be broken without juice? Although I know Adam Nelson is training for it naturally, Randy Barnes set his shot put record (probably) while juicing.
I’m sure there are going to be enough loopholes or some such that there will be records of juicers left standing after the kind of “purge” you are talking about.
whatever your opinion is on doping, drugs, steroids or whatever, it doesn’t matter, because Dick Pound is a scumbag.[/quote]
He has valid points about the NHL. They test for steroids only, when stimulants are far and away the most prevalent form of doping in hockey. The NHL only tests for steroids and then claims that none of their athletes are on drugs.
That said, if the league is alright with a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, then Dick Pound should just fuck off. You’re right that he’s a scumbag, because he has no business poking his nose in the NHL when they’ve clearly made their decision.
You realize how many of those must be held by juicers.
In that case…how many are going to be tossed out? What if the ones that stand simply can’t be broken without juice? Although I know Adam Nelson is training for it naturally, Randy Barnes set his shot put record (probably) while juicing.
I’m sure there are going to be enough loopholes or some such that there will be records of juicers left standing after the kind of “purge” you are talking about.
And what then? No new records?[/quote]
No, I hardly think every record is going to or should be tossed because the holder ‘probably’ juiced. Only if a conclusive test came back. That is if they start using a better test than a comparison of the test-epitest ratio. John Berardi suggests that there are much more effective tests available.
whatever your opinion is on doping, drugs, steroids or whatever, it doesn’t matter, because Dick Pound is a scumbag.
He has valid points about the NHL. They test for steroids only, when stimulants are far and away the most prevalent form of doping in hockey. The NHL only tests for steroids and then claims that none of their athletes are on drugs.
That said, if the league is alright with a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, then Dick Pound should just fuck off. You’re right that he’s a scumbag, because he has no business poking his nose in the NHL when they’ve clearly made their decision.[/quote]
Most of the NHL guys don’t care enough to use that kind of stuff. Although, back when ephedra was legal, there were certainly numbers of guys using that. I’d bank that there’s still guys using ephedra. The thing is that it’s not really a big deal to be using ephedra or anything, when dick pound makes it seem like they’re murdering people by using a stimulant.
No, I hardly think every record is going to or should be tossed because the holder ‘probably’ juiced. Only if a conclusive test came back. That is if they start using a better test than a comparison of the test-epitest ratio. John Berardi suggests that there are much more effective tests available.[/quote]
Like my issue isn’t with the tests…
It’s more like…so the old juicers get away with it? The juicers today don’t?
No, I hardly think every record is going to or should be tossed because the holder ‘probably’ juiced. Only if a conclusive test came back. That is if they start using a better test than a comparison of the test-epitest ratio. John Berardi suggests that there are much more effective tests available.
Like my issue isn’t with the tests…
It’s more like…so the old juicers get away with it? The juicers today don’t?[/quote]
Well, what’s the alternative? There is none. Everything has to start somewhere. You can’t simply invalidate every record on supposition. And if the organizations had a lax policy, that’s their own fault. If everyone becomes equally unable to get away with it, then there’s no problem.
I think there will be too many records that will never be broken now, if they find a way to detect any and all drugs. I think it just gives to much of an edge to anyone who finds and uses a designer steroid.
[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
I think there will be too many records that will never be broken now, if they find a way to detect any and all drugs. I think it just gives to much of an edge to anyone who finds and uses a designer steroid.[/quote]
Yeah. Maybe. I don’t really care if records stagnate. If that’s the case, it will be clear as to the reason and become apparent how much of an edge steroids gave to earlier athletes. As for the latter, someone finding and using a new undetectable designer steroid will probably still have that edge whether or notthey tighten up their policies.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
hockechamp14 wrote:
I think there will be too many records that will never be broken now, if they find a way to detect any and all drugs. I think it just gives to much of an edge to anyone who finds and uses a designer steroid.
Yeah. Maybe. I don’t really care if records stagnate. If that’s the case, it will be clear as to the reason and become apparent how much of an edge steroids gave to earlier athletes. As for the latter, someone finding and using a new undetectable designer steroid will probably still have that edge whether or notthey tighten up their policies.[/quote]
Right, that’s the other issue. Designer drugs. The war to stay undetectable. If records stagnate whatever. Maybe people will wake up.
The drugs are always one step ahead of the testing, and thats the way it’s always gonna be.
What is really annoying is, team sports in europe get away with everything because they are only tested once a year (from what ive heard) and they know the date. Yet people think all the athletes are clean because their is no positives.
I think drug testing should loosen up in some sports like track and field and cycling. Then the average joe will think the athletes are all clean and the stereotype images will disapear.
Or, tighten up on all sports to show that it is everywhere not just in these sports.
Tightening up is just going to catch a few more athletes, make the sport look worse and worse, yet after all this, drug users will still be winning and taking the records. Except the best athletes won’t win as often cause they may be unlucky to get caught just like Gatlin has.