Just Getting Into BJJ and Muay Thai

[LTKO]

Typed a long detailed post on what I did for the past week but the browser fucked up and it’s all gone

Short ver:

Sunday:
Afternoon: Lifted: bench, squat > Muaythai lesson (1.5hr)
Evening: Shadowboxing

Monday:
Morning: Lifted (missed back on sunday) Rows, pullups. Circuit: Highpull > Med ball slam > burpee variation > lateral hops x3 sets, 10 reps each
Evening: Punching drills 3 sets of 50 repetitions: Jab, Cross, L Hook, R Hook, L elbow, R elbow, L upper cut, R uppercut

Tuesday:
Morning: Lifted: Bench, Squat, Row, Hip Thrust, Pullups. Conditioning, 50 med ball throw, 50 med ball slam
Evening: Bjj training (1.5hrs) : drills, learnt triangle choke and set up, rolling

Wednesday:
Morning: Pad work with friend from school who has taekwando, muaythai and some krav maga experience
Evening: Heavy bag, 5 3 min rounds

Thursday:
Morning: Lifted: Bench, squats, rows, hip thrust, core. Circuit: Highpull > Med ball slam > med ball throw > burpee variation > lateral hops x3 sets, 10 reps
Evening: 200 kicks each leg, 4 sets of 50, focusing on technique

Friday:
Morning: Pad work with friend (intense, the pads are big and holding them was tiring. And my friend kicks like a gun, my forearms were bruised just by holding them. But he gives alot of good advice and it’s good to have someone criticise my form)
Evening: conditioning with basketball

I usually don’t have days off unless i really feel the need to. Any advice on how to improve my drills/programming would be great! First thing i’m going to do is cut down lifting to two times a week and only three times if i have the energy to.

[Robert_A]

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
You are already a step ahead of the game based on your level of planning and thinking already. If you are ambitious about learning and becoming good at Muay Thai and BJJ, then you will have to cut back on your strength training volume. Both sports are VERY demanding on their own. Many individuals starting out underestimate the physical demands. Moreover, you are not just dealing with the physical exhaustion while training. The mind is also working hard while trying to learn each sport. You’ll often become even more fatigued as a result. Try not to take on too much at once. Gradually build up your “work capacity.” Keep a log and pay attention to when you have good days and bad days in the gym. This can be a guide as to which kind of rest/recovery protocol you can adopt in your training. As you progress, you will see areas that you can adjust as you begin to work from week to week.

As for strength training, look up 5/3/1 and possibly Westside for Skinny Bastards 3. Ideally, you should lift twice per week. When you are lifting, perform compound movements. The Squat and Deadlift are my two favorites. Keep in mind that both lifts will tax your central nervous system, so in addition to training in Muay Thai and BJJ, you have to keep a keen eye on how you approach those lifts. In other words, you should NOT go to the gym each week to try to set PR’s. The primary reason why I like 5/3/1 is that you are working off of percentages based on your max in those lifts and there is a de-load week. More importantly, see how your body reacts and make adjustments based on your goals.

Also, don’t forget to do include neck and hand work in your training. Working on the neck and hands helps in combat sports. [/quote]

Great advice. I actually went to the gym today (third time for the week) and I could barely squat 80kg because my legs were fatigued from pad work and some cardio conditioning yesterday. (and i hit 105x5x3sets the day before!) So i just did some benching, presses and shadow boxing.

I’ve done both 531 and WFSB3 before so i’d definitely look into it. “not going into the gym each week to try to set PRs” really makes sense to me now. I love lifting so it will be hard but hey, if doing less helps me get better, i’m all for it.

Thanks.
[/quote]

I am going to echo fearnloathing’s comments, and also tell you to absorb everything Sentoguy wrote. In addition FacePalm’s comment is useful.

I want to add two points.

First What do you like/desire most?

Intellectual honesty compels me to say that if you would rather be a Lifter who does some BJJ or Thai Boxing than a Nak Muay or BJJ fighter who also lifts that is really just as valid. It isn’t the way I would go, and it is likely against what most in this forum do, but this is the combat forum. In one of the lifting forums it would probably go the other way.

I wouldn’t worry about optimal when just starting out. Hell, figure out if you like BJJ or Thai boxing first. If you hate getting hit or don’t like the place you train at you can shelve boxing. If you hate rolling with dudes than you can drop BJJ. You haven’t listed a reason why you “have” to train a martial art/sport so if you try them for a little while and decide you would rather be a bodybuilder or powerlifter or “big guy” that is ok. This answer changes if you are in a “dangerous trade” or you have a desire to learn how to “fight”, “defend yourself”, or something else. You can make progress going to a martial arts class twice a week. You will be miles ahead of people going zero times a week. It isn’t the same as going 4 times a week, but it is progress.

On the other hand if it turns out you like training in the “combat” stuff a lot, and cutting down on lifting makes you better at it than suddenly “less weight room more mat/ring work” is an easy sell. You will be doing the shit you want to. If you are just starting out I would wait and see if any of this stuff settles itself before worrying about overtraining or overuse injuries to any huge extent.(Note: If you already have a significant medical history that needs to be accounted for.)

Try it all. Have fun. Learn. In 3 months you are going to have some decent data to help you make choices, and if you do drop something completely you will be able to do it with a full heart.

Second: kmcnyc’s rules of training

kmcnyc is a poster who has an extensive background in high level wrestling and judo. He managed to basically give the Unified Theory of Combat Training. I am going to try to pass it on.

1.)Skill/Technical Work-practising the damn thing
is more important than
2.)Conditioning-Can do the damn thing longer w/out dragging ass
which is more important than
3.)Pure Strength Work-Being strong

At first train them all, as much as you can.

When you stall decrease the lowest priority work first until you are no longer stalling/fried.

-The Gospel of kmcnyc

Regards,

Robert A

[LTKO]

[/quote]

I am going to echo fearnloathing’s comments, and also tell you to absorb everything Sentoguy wrote. In addition FacePalm’s comment is useful.

I want to add two points.

First What do you like/desire most?

Intellectual honesty compels me to say that if you would rather be a Lifter who does some BJJ or Thai Boxing than a Nak Muay or BJJ fighter who also lifts that is really just as valid. It isn’t the way I would go, and it is likely against what most in this forum do, but this is the combat forum. In one of the lifting forums it would probably go the other way.

I wouldn’t worry about optimal when just starting out. Hell, figure out if you like BJJ or Thai boxing first. If you hate getting hit or don’t like the place you train at you can shelve boxing. If you hate rolling with dudes than you can drop BJJ. You haven’t listed a reason why you “have” to train a martial art/sport so if you try them for a little while and decide you would rather be a bodybuilder or powerlifter or “big guy” that is ok. This answer changes if you are in a “dangerous trade” or you have a desire to learn how to “fight”, “defend yourself”, or something else. You can make progress going to a martial arts class twice a week. You will be miles ahead of people going zero times a week. It isn’t the same as going 4 times a week, but it is progress.

On the other hand if it turns out you like training in the “combat” stuff a lot, and cutting down on lifting makes you better at it than suddenly “less weight room more mat/ring work” is an easy sell. You will be doing the shit you want to. If you are just starting out I would wait and see if any of this stuff settles itself before worrying about overtraining or overuse injuries to any huge extent.(Note: If you already have a significant medical history that needs to be accounted for.)

Try it all. Have fun. Learn. In 3 months you are going to have some decent data to help you make choices, and if you do drop something completely you will be able to do it with a full heart.

Second: kmcnyc’s rules of training

kmcnyc is a poster who has an extensive background in high level wrestling and judo. He managed to basically give the Unified Theory of Combat Training. I am going to try to pass it on.

1.)Skill/Technical Work-practising the damn thing
is more important than
2.)Conditioning-Can do the damn thing longer w/out dragging ass
which is more important than
3.)Pure Strength Work-Being strong

At first train them all, as much as you can.

When you stall decrease the lowest priority work first until you are no longer stalling/fried.

-The Gospel of kmcnyc

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

Very fair points and I definitely agree with you. As of now, my current motives for picking up martial arts is because (in no particular order):

1. Self-Defence
2. I’d like to learn how to be a ‘warrior’ (sort of a finding my own identity kinda thing)
3. Perhaps join a competition in the future

My reason for only going to class twice a week is because I have school from Monday to
Friday with a total of 3 hours of commute each day. I also work part time four times a week. I wake up 6am daily (M-F) to go to school and sometimes end at 7.30pm. Thus, as of right now I’m just making do with what I can and applied for the beginner classes that fits my schedule and training when I can (in between classes/after school and before work) Joining a proper gym and attending more regular classes are in my plans but most probably only from November onwards and I can plan my class schedule to fit my training schedule more easily next semester.

Kmcnyc’s advice sounds good. I’d start putting skill work as a priority from now onwards and regulate my lifting so it fits around my martial arts training and not the other way around.

[magick]

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
The really important question is why are you lifting? Not questioning the value of lifting in general, but you may need to revise your goals in the weight room so that lifting will not interfere with your martial arts[/quote]

I never quite understood this conflict people talk about.

Unless you’re literally doing 2-3 hours of combat art training daily, followed (or preceded) by very intense strength training when you’re still tired, (or you do strength training immediately before combat art training, etc) I don’t know why they would interfere with one another.

[LTKO]

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
The really important question is why are you lifting? Not questioning the value of lifting in general, but you may need to revise your goals in the weight room so that lifting will not interfere with your martial arts[/quote]

I never quite understood this conflict people talk about.

Unless you’re literally doing 2-3 hours of combat art training daily, followed (or preceded) by very intense strength training when you’re still tired, (or you do strength training immediately before combat art training, etc) I don’t know why they would interfere with one another.[/quote]

well i think people meant heavy lifting regularly aka a bodybuilder/powerlifting split and performing combat arts with the intent of getting good at both. It would definitely tax recovery, and perhaps also affect motor function i.e. when you’re tired, your body utilises or overcompensates with other muscle groups when kicking/punching etc. and thus the wrong motor pattern can develop.

More of a matter of if you want to get good at something just focus on that one thing. And lifting definitely helps martial arts to an extent, as long as you don’t over do it. Same for lifting wih any other sport.

[LTKO]

Oh, and would it be advisable to do conditioning daily?

[Jarvan]

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
If you wanna get good at either, don’t lift.

Save your energy, for what matters.

And if you think lifting supplements martial arts, you’re absolutely right, but you’re a complete beginner and most likely don’t know how to utilize lifting for sport.
[/quote]

I’ll chime in here - while I’d agree if he had never lifted before, I think someone who has been lifting for longer periods will have an easier time maintaining the mass and strength he has by still touching weights but less frequently. I once decided to drop weights and suddenly found myself in a lower weight class, with the uncomfortable feeling that I couldn’t do what I used to. Just something to consider.
[/quote]

You felt you lost your capacity to perform in martial arts from not lifting? Not sure what you mean from that last statement.
And of course lifting will help you add mass or size, but is that so pertinent to the OP’s course? He doesn’t specifically state he wants to add, subtract, or maintain mass. And let’s say OP did want to pursue the ambivalent goal of being phenomenal at muay thai, bjj, and get shredded all at once. How often does that actually come to fruition?
I’ll tell ya.

Never.

Either one of two things happen. The trainee gets fried out, or they get injured. BJJ in itself is tremendous work. Muay Thai in itself is tremendous work. And sudden spikes in ‘NEW’ type of workload causes tremendous stress in the body. Especially in the ‘fragile’ ball and socket joint, your hips, and knees.

If you do train, I am almost certain that you know many many practitioners that have shitty knees, shoulders, and hips. And because of that, they can never train full force. What they do do, is talk about physical therapy, get wrapped up like a mummy before rolling, talk about how they’re getting old when they’re only 30, blame their shitty back or hips… And in the end, they doubt their future.

And most of this happens because…

people try to do too much, too soon, with the wrong information… then they raise their fist to the heavens and blame their terrible genetics.

*Please note that I am not at all diminishing the importance of proper lifting.
More likely than not, a trainee will have many imbalances… all of which can be rectified through weight training. However, not all beginners have the money or access to coaches to walk them through these things. With that said, it’s a safer bet for beginners to just have some fun in the sport, first. The rest will follow on its own.

[/quote]

Thanks for the long and thought out post!

I would definitely like to be good/great in what I do, but I know from past experiences to be realistic. So I’ll definitely be planning for the long term instead of expecting to be phenomenal in 6 months, get burnt out and quit.

Currently at 72-73ishKG and about 13-15% BF. (Studying sports science in university so i had the chance to get a legit DEXA scan done on me before. ) As I’m still a total beginner, I wouldn’t expect to be fighting anytime soon (at least not until i’ve had a year or so of training). So I would like to maintain my weight or drop down to 70kg over the course of the year. I believe lifting would help me maintain strength, muscle and work out imbalances. But yes i also do agree that lifting volume should be significantly reduced.

I do think my work capacity is pretty decent though as I used to train twice a day for basketball to a total of about 12 training sessions/week. I’m also studying sports injuries at the moment, so i’ll be sure to take note if i’m experiencing any symptoms of overuse injuries due to training. :)[/quote]

A marathon runner would not fare well in a cycling event. Vice versa. How many BJJ classes have you taken so far? Is it a reputable school or are you just rolling with buddies after watching some youtube?

[nighthawkz]

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

You felt you lost your capacity to perform in martial arts from not lifting? Not sure what you mean from that last statement.
And of course lifting will help you add mass or size, but is that so pertinent to the OP’s course? He doesn’t specifically state he wants to add, subtract, or maintain mass. And let’s say OP did want to pursue the ambivalent goal of being phenomenal at muay thai, bjj, and get shredded all at once. How often does that actually come to fruition?
I’ll tell ya.

Never.
[/quote]

Suddenly being a lot weaker and lighter does mess with your skills on the mat, both physically and mentally - no matter what you say. I would never tell a complete BJJ beginner with no experience in the weight room to lift, but if you have been lifting for a decent amount of time, I believe you should try to maintain what you have as well as you can. Even so, I do not insist OP continues touching barbells; but I disagree with your ad hoc advice to definitely scrap them. It’s one factor he can add or subtract which will lead to different results. Personally, I think my joints feel better when I do at least a bit of lifting.

[quote]magick wrote:
I never quite understood this conflict people talk about.

Unless you’re literally doing 2-3 hours of combat art training daily, followed (or preceded) by very intense strength training when you’re still tired, (or you do strength training immediately before combat art training, etc) I don’t know why they would interfere with one another.[/quote]

EDITED (cp. magick’s training log)

[magick]

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
Magick, I’ve been meaning to address this in your log - but you’re living proof of how too much training volume may not be the best idea. You haven’t made a ton of progress over the past six months, train all the time and keep complaining about bad sessions and failed lifts. I know this comes across as aggressive and I apologise for that - this is not my intention. Rather, I think you’re being misguided by what you think SHOULD work, rather than by what actually DOES work.[/quote]

If you want to talk about my progress, then feel free to talk about it in my thread.

[Facepalm_Death]

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
The really important question is why are you lifting? Not questioning the value of lifting in general, but you may need to revise your goals in the weight room so that lifting will not interfere with your martial arts[/quote]

I never quite understood this conflict people talk about.

Unless you’re literally doing 2-3 hours of combat art training daily, followed (or preceded) by very intense strength training when you’re still tired, (or you do strength training immediately before combat art training, etc) I don’t know why they would interfere with one another.[/quote]

I guess it depends on the art you practice and the lifting style, but i have noticed a conflict.
Here are some random ideas/speculations based on where I’m at as a beginner in judo.
I’m a little slower in some movements after deadlift days. If I go too intense on deadlift days I am terrible at doing seoi nage or any koshi waza at judo practice. I’m just slower and less coordinated getting into positions for the throw. And if my shoulders and upper back are very sore my kuzushi is noticeably weaker and/or I have more difficulty finely controlling the direction of the kuzushi. I also noticed an overall clumsiness with foot placement and movement in techniques that involve standing on one foot like osoto ouchi and kouchi gari and harai goshi etc. I think part of the root of these problems was at the time I was still learning the motor patterns involved in the throws and I hadnt ingrained the most efficient way to do them yet

I would imagine there are similar problems with upper body days and striking arts. While I know these things arent necessarily going to be true for everyone, I think in general the more one chases PRs in the weight room, the worse these problems will be

TL;DR speed and coordination can be affected to the point that learning new techniques will be harder, its a CNS issue not a muscular fatigue issue per se

Edit: Forgot to add, I’ve gotten minor injuries in sparring that interfered with lifting for weeks at a time

[Robert_A]

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
Edit: Forgot to add, I’ve gotten minor injuries in sparring that interfered with lifting for weeks at a time
[/quote]

Only weeks?

I don’t really count the minor interference. It seems like something is always still a little banged up from last “session” and is kind of a thing with whatever I am doing. Sore from lifting, or getting hit, or thrown, or joint locked, whatever the case.

That is a big reason I got so specific with my warm up/prehab routine (details are in FightinIrish’s log).

You may want to check out the recovery thread if you haven’t also.

Regards,

Robert A

[Robert_A]

[quote]LTKO wrote:
Oh, and would it be advisable to do conditioning daily?[/quote]

Absolutely, keeping in mind that not all conditioning has to be “drop you balls into your socks” hard. kmcnyc listed the mileage the lighter wrestlers used to do that “didn’t even count” or “just to breath”.

If you try to kill yourself with conditioning everyday, other work will suffer if you are sore/tired from it. At least until you adapt to the conditioning.

Another point is that in the beginning your technical deficit will be the biggest factor in gassing, especially if you have any kind of physical base from lifting or athletics. It is damn near a cliche to have a new, but in great “shape”, boxer or grappler get run around, ragdolled, and raped in the ring or on the mat by a more experienced man who is on the wrong side of 30 or even 40. In the beginning you won’t know when you can sort of “relax” without leaving yourself open, and you will wind up doing 3 steps to the experienced man’s one.

Boxing provides great examples of this. Pros fight a number of rounds that would have most amateurs throwing up. In many cases the pros are older, and even sometimes a little lackluster about their “conditioning”. They don’t run THAT many more miles, or work “THAT” much harder in the gym compared to high level amateurs. What they have is the experience to know exactly how hard they have to work in the ring, so they waste way less energy.

With that in mind, I would consider making some of your conditioning just drilling some of the techniques you are learning. Sentoguy provided a lot of info for you to use. If in doubt try to go over what you did last class every day until the next class. A few movements from Sentos list and/or a walkthrough of the last lesson plus maybe some pushups or pullups and whatever “core”/“abs” means to you will make a huge difference but shouldn’t leave you too tired to learn or train. You also have to leave enough in the tank to study/perform in school.

Give it a shot, because being tired in a fight is never helpful, but if you run into issues you can scale according to kmcnyc’s advice.

Regards,

Robert A

[LTKO]

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]LTKO wrote:
Oh, and would it be advisable to do conditioning daily?[/quote]

Absolutely, keeping in mind that not all conditioning has to be “drop you balls into your socks” hard. kmcnyc listed the mileage the lighter wrestlers used to do that “didn’t even count” or “just to breath”.

If you try to kill yourself with conditioning everyday, other work will suffer if you are sore/tired from it. At least until you adapt to the conditioning.

Another point is that in the beginning your technical deficit will be the biggest factor in gassing, especially if you have any kind of physical base from lifting or athletics. It is damn near a cliche to have a new, but in great “shape”, boxer or grappler get run around, ragdolled, and raped in the ring or on the mat by a more experienced man who is on the wrong side of 30 or even 40. In the beginning you won’t know when you can sort of “relax” without leaving yourself open, and you will wind up doing 3 steps to the experienced man’s one.

Boxing provides great examples of this. Pros fight a number of rounds that would have most amateurs throwing up. In many cases the pros are older, and even sometimes a little lackluster about their “conditioning”. They don’t run THAT many more miles, or work “THAT” much harder in the gym compared to high level amateurs. What they have is the experience to know exactly how hard they have to work in the ring, so they waste way less energy.

With that in mind, I would consider making some of your conditioning just drilling some of the techniques you are learning. Sentoguy provided a lot of info for you to use. If in doubt try to go over what you did last class every day until the next class. A few movements from Sentos list and/or a walkthrough of the last lesson plus maybe some pushups or pullups and whatever “core”/“abs” means to you will make a huge difference but shouldn’t leave you too tired to learn or train. You also have to leave enough in the tank to study/perform in school.

Give it a shot, because being tired in a fight is never helpful, but if you run into issues you can scale according to kmcnyc’s advice.

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

Got it, i got pretty tired just doing repetitions of punching and kicking today.

What I did today:

Morning:
~1 hour technique training session
Stood in front of a big mirror in my school’s “cardiovascular training room”
Focusing on moving around and utilizing footwork as it has a much bigger space than my room
Warm up
-jab 50
-right 50
-jab-cross 50
Rest
-Knees 50 Left & 50 right
-Jab-cross-knee 25 Left, 25 Right
Rest
Body shot 25
Right hook 25
x2sets
Rest
Front kicks 10L, 10R x5sets

Went to the gym
Chest supported BB row aka Seal row with an incline
60x5, 62.5x5, 65x5, 67.5x5
1min rest

Evening at home:
~1hour heavy bag technique training
-Kicks 50 L, 50 R x4 sets (total 200 each leg)
-Jab 20 + Right 20 x5 rounds w/o rest x3 sets
-V ups: 10 x 5