Just Getting Into BJJ and Muay Thai

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hi guys, i’m just getting into BJJ and muay thai and would like some help/advice.

Short history:
-boxed a few months a few years ago (still a noob, but i picked up punching faster than kicking/grappling)
-played basketball and other sports regularly so decently athletic and mobile
-lifted 4 years but on and off and without proper knowledge (brostuff) seriously only for the past 1 or 2 years.
-currently learning BJJ and Muaythai but only since 3 weeks ago

Stats:
Age: 23
Weight: 72-74kg
Ht: 178cm
Lifts: *most i did in the last month
Bench: 80kgx4
Squats 105kgx5x3sets

was doing a high volume split 6-7x/week with low intensity before this with aesthetics as the goal, but decided to pick up martial arts.

Now doing:
-usually train twice a day. 3 days of lifting, two days of lessons. The rest at home as i have a heavy bag and gloves.
-Greyskull (a 3x5 program with some hamstring and back work)
-circuit training after lifting

Still not sure how to progress on skills, ive been training everyday since my first lesson, mostly for striking. I would shadow box, practice my striking without the bag (just doing repetitions of jabs, crosses, rights etc.) and hit the heavy bag for either repetitions or time. Looked on youtube but some of the stuff are really advanced with many combos or focused on fat loss/cardio. So any advice on what i should be doing? Just practicing the fundamentals and doing repetitions? Any advice would be appreciated. :slight_smile:

2

If anyone needs to examine in detail the programme i do, I can post it up! :slight_smile:

3

I’ve done/am doing both sports and I also lift, so I feel like I am qualified. The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is follow fightinirish’s template - two days of lifting, three days of skill practice, drills and mobility every day, add a bit of cardio if you can. If you’re seriously trying to get better at BJJ and MT at the same time, you’ll have to devote time to it and lifting will have to take a backseat. This is your judgement call, but you won’t get much better at two arts by practising each of them 1x/week. I eventually quit BJJ for the time being to have more time for Muay Thai AND lifting. Best of luck, they are both wonderful sports.

4

Why are you training BJJ and Muay Thai?

5

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
I’ve done/am doing both sports and I also lift, so I feel like I am qualified. The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is follow fightinirish’s template - two days of lifting, three days of skill practice, drills and mobility every day, add a bit of cardio if you can. If you’re seriously trying to get better at BJJ and MT at the same time, you’ll have to devote time to it and lifting will have to take a backseat. This is your judgement call, but you won’t get much better at two arts by practising each of them 1x/week. I eventually quit BJJ for the time being to have more time for Muay Thai AND lifting. Best of luck, they are both wonderful sports.[/quote]

Pretty much what I was going to say. I trained both disciplines for several years, with my primary focus being BJJ. The Muay Thai I used as more of a conditioning tool; sure my skills improved but I only trained 1-2 times a week so I wouldn’t have classified myself as much more than a beginner.

It really all depends on what your priority is. As nighthawkz said, lifting will have to take a backseat and you’ll have to ramp up time in class if you want to truly improve in either discipline.

When I was heavy into BJJ (3-4 days a week), I used a Chad Waterbury program that was designed for MMA athletes. It’s 2 days-a-week and fit perfectly into my schedule.

6

5/3/1 seems to be a huge favorite because of the flexibility it gives. I will point out that since Wendler has his own sub-forum here the value of being able to ask questions there might be enough of an asset to trump other programs.

FighinIrish26 runs 5/3/1 2 X weekly and then does skill work on 2-3 more dedicated days. He is also a huge believer in doing some small skill work each day. His log is always on the first page of this forum and he is pretty giving of his time to explain/help people figure things out. There is a lot there.

Ranzo’s log hasn’t been updated for a while, but he used 5/3/1 while competing in MMA and training for such. It would be worth going through that as well. That log is also on the first page.

Finaly, fearnloathingnyc trains Muay Thai, Judo/Wrestling, and does 5/3/1 while on a brutal work schedule. His job also means he can’t afford to be hobbling around crippled by soreness no matter how hard core it seems. He has a log here as well and updates frequently.

I would check through those for ideas and not hesitate to ask specific questions in those logs as well. Most everyone here is pretty damn willing to help.

Links:

Irish’s Log
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/log_o_the_irish_20

Ranzo’s

fearnlothingnyc’s

In general most guys here will tell you that training skills more than weightroom stuff will yield better results as far as being a fighter/martial artist. That makes sense. If you want to be a lifter that trains martial arts than maybe the current split makes more sense? I hope some of my post helps.

Regards,

Robert A

7

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
I’ve done/am doing both sports and I also lift, so I feel like I am qualified. The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is follow fightinirish’s template - two days of lifting, three days of skill practice, drills and mobility every day, add a bit of cardio if you can. If you’re seriously trying to get better at BJJ and MT at the same time, you’ll have to devote time to it and lifting will have to take a backseat. This is your judgement call, but you won’t get much better at two arts by practising each of them 1x/week. I eventually quit BJJ for the time being to have more time for Muay Thai AND lifting. Best of luck, they are both wonderful sports.[/quote]

I’m taking beginner classes at the moment so I’m limited to one class per week. But I’ll be joining a “real” gym with more sessions in about 2 months time.

Thanks for the heads up about two disciplines being too much to master at the same time+lifting. I’m able to do more Muay Thai stuff at home cause well, you don’t really need a partner for that, and I have a bag.

8

[quote]magick wrote:
Why are you training BJJ and Muay Thai?[/quote]

I thought that it’d be a good idea to learn a striking and grappling art :slight_smile:

9

[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
I’ve done/am doing both sports and I also lift, so I feel like I am qualified. The best thing you could do, in my opinion, is follow fightinirish’s template - two days of lifting, three days of skill practice, drills and mobility every day, add a bit of cardio if you can. If you’re seriously trying to get better at BJJ and MT at the same time, you’ll have to devote time to it and lifting will have to take a backseat. This is your judgement call, but you won’t get much better at two arts by practising each of them 1x/week. I eventually quit BJJ for the time being to have more time for Muay Thai AND lifting. Best of luck, they are both wonderful sports.[/quote]

Pretty much what I was going to say. I trained both disciplines for several years, with my primary focus being BJJ. The Muay Thai I used as more of a conditioning tool; sure my skills improved but I only trained 1-2 times a week so I wouldn’t have classified myself as much more than a beginner.

It really all depends on what your priority is. As nighthawkz said, lifting will have to take a backseat and you’ll have to ramp up time in class if you want to truly improve in either discipline.

When I was heavy into BJJ (3-4 days a week), I used a Chad Waterbury program that was designed for MMA athletes. It’s 2 days-a-week and fit perfectly into my schedule.

[/quote]

Ok thanks! Guess I’ll be focusing on MT! And I’ll give those articles a look :slight_smile:

10

[quote]Robert A wrote:
5/3/1 seems to be a huge favorite because of the flexibility it gives. I will point out that since Wendler has his own sub-forum here the value of being able to ask questions there might be enough of an asset to trump other programs.

FighinIrish26 runs 5/3/1 2 X weekly and then does skill work on 2-3 more dedicated days. He is also a huge believer in doing some small skill work each day. His log is always on the first page of this forum and he is pretty giving of his time to explain/help people figure things out. There is a lot there.

Ranzo’s log hasn’t been updated for a while, but he used 5/3/1 while competing in MMA and training for such. It would be worth going through that as well. That log is also on the first page.

Finaly, fearnloathingnyc trains Muay Thai, Judo/Wrestling, and does 5/3/1 while on a brutal work schedule. His job also means he can’t afford to be hobbling around crippled by soreness no matter how hard core it seems. He has a log here as well and updates frequently.

I would check through those for ideas and not hesitate to ask specific questions in those logs as well. Most everyone here is pretty damn willing to help.

Links:

Irish’s Log
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/log_o_the_irish_20

Ranzo’s

fearnlothingnyc’s

In general most guys here will tell you that training skills more than weightroom stuff will yield better results as far as being a fighter/martial artist. That makes sense. If you want to be a lifter that trains martial arts than maybe the current split makes more sense? I hope some of my post helps.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Ok thanks Robert! I have actually checked out irishs logic before. Longtime lurker :slight_smile: and you have always given solid advice.

I’m currently a student so I can literally train daily, most of the time at least two one hour sessions. I’ll to pick up some drills and workouts from the logs and implement them.

And yea…I do agree that focusing on the sport/discipline itself will make you better at it instead of focusing on lifting. Makes me a little sad though

11

Thanks for all the advice guys! Will try some of the suggestions out and check back if.I have any questions! Pardon the errors in my typing. Shitty phone here.

12

If you wanna get good at either, don’t lift.

Save your energy, for what matters.

And if you think lifting supplements martial arts, you’re absolutely right, but you’re a complete beginner and most likely don’t know how to utilize lifting for sport.

13

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
If you wanna get good at either, don’t lift.

Save your energy, for what matters.

And if you think lifting supplements martial arts, you’re absolutely right, but you’re a complete beginner and most likely don’t know how to utilize lifting for sport.
[/quote]

I’ll chime in here - while I’d agree if he had never lifted before, I think someone who has been lifting for longer periods will have an easier time maintaining the mass and strength he has by still touching weights but less frequently. I once decided to drop weights and suddenly found myself in a lower weight class, with the uncomfortable feeling that I couldn’t do what I used to. Just something to consider.

14

Others have already given you good advice regarding scheduling your resistance training and skill training, so I won’t rehash that.

What I will say is that there is actually a decent amount of things you can do solo at home for your BJJ that will pay dividends in your training.

The most basic thing is to work on your basic ground mobility skills:
-shrimping/hip escape
-bridge and roll
-hip heist
-sit-out
-pelvis kick-ups (can also be done to a triangle leg position or while rotating to simulate throwing up an armbar)
-leg tuck under to leg lock position from knees
-front shoulder roll
-back shoulder roll
-Granby roll
-butterfly sweep mechanics
-back slide out (and return if you have the flexibility and control) from a plow/stacked position
-technical/tactical get-up
-wall walking/inverting in the guard
-hip switches

All of these require nothing but some floor space (and a wall for the wall walks) but will all directly translate to your BJJ skill development.

You can of course also drill stand-up grappling mobility skills solo such as:
-Double leg/high crotch penetration step
-sweep single penetration step
-low single penetration mechanics
-sprawling (and circling to the back/off at an angle)
-sprawling and re-shooting
-jamming with your hands or forearms and circling away
-back stepping (to set up a hip throw variation)

Truth be told, once you gain some more experience you can actually “shadow grapple/wrestle” just like you can “shadow box” and can include throws, counter throws, submissions, submission defenses, and pretty much everything that would happen in a BJJ/grappling match while doing so. Obviously you are not working against true resistance and nothing can replace working with real training partners, but if you can’t make it to class as often as you like these types of exercises and drills can still be very useful and allow you to practice the skills you do know more frequently. At this point you may not be familiar with all of the above mentioned movements that I mentioned, so you can just drill what you do know or even what skills you have learned thus far. There are also quite a few good vids on youtube demoing many of these movements if you’d like a visual reference.

Good luck.

15

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
If you wanna get good at either, don’t lift.

Save your energy, for what matters.

And if you think lifting supplements martial arts, you’re absolutely right, but you’re a complete beginner and most likely don’t know how to utilize lifting for sport.
[/quote]

I’ll chime in here - while I’d agree if he had never lifted before, I think someone who has been lifting for longer periods will have an easier time maintaining the mass and strength he has by still touching weights but less frequently. I once decided to drop weights and suddenly found myself in a lower weight class, with the uncomfortable feeling that I couldn’t do what I used to. Just something to consider.
[/quote]

You felt you lost your capacity to perform in martial arts from not lifting? Not sure what you mean from that last statement.
And of course lifting will help you add mass or size, but is that so pertinent to the OP’s course? He doesn’t specifically state he wants to add, subtract, or maintain mass. And let’s say OP did want to pursue the ambivalent goal of being phenomenal at muay thai, bjj, and get shredded all at once. How often does that actually come to fruition?
I’ll tell ya.

Never.

Either one of two things happen. The trainee gets fried out, or they get injured. BJJ in itself is tremendous work. Muay Thai in itself is tremendous work. And sudden spikes in ‘NEW’ type of workload causes tremendous stress in the body. Especially in the ‘fragile’ ball and socket joint, your hips, and knees.

If you do train, I am almost certain that you know many many practitioners that have shitty knees, shoulders, and hips. And because of that, they can never train full force. What they do do, is talk about physical therapy, get wrapped up like a mummy before rolling, talk about how they’re getting old when they’re only 30, blame their shitty back or hips… And in the end, they doubt their future.

And most of this happens because…

people try to do too much, too soon, with the wrong information… then they raise their fist to the heavens and blame their terrible genetics.

*Please note that I am not at all diminishing the importance of proper lifting.
More likely than not, a trainee will have many imbalances… all of which can be rectified through weight training. However, not all beginners have the money or access to coaches to walk them through these things. With that said, it’s a safer bet for beginners to just have some fun in the sport, first. The rest will follow on its own.

16

You are already a step ahead of the game based on your level of planning and thinking already. If you are ambitious about learning and becoming good at Muay Thai and BJJ, then you will have to cut back on your strength training volume. Both sports are VERY demanding on their own. Many individuals starting out underestimate the physical demands. Moreover, you are not just dealing with the physical exhaustion while training. The mind is also working hard while trying to learn each sport. You’ll often become even more fatigued as a result. Try not to take on too much at once. Gradually build up your “work capacity.” Keep a log and pay attention to when you have good days and bad days in the gym. This can be a guide as to which kind of rest/recovery protocol you can adopt in your training. As you progress, you will see areas that you can adjust as you begin to work from week to week.

As for strength training, look up 5/3/1 and possibly Westside for Skinny Bastards 3. Ideally, you should lift twice per week. When you are lifting, perform compound movements. The Squat and Deadlift are my two favorites. Keep in mind that both lifts will tax your central nervous system, so in addition to training in Muay Thai and BJJ, you have to keep a keen eye on how you approach those lifts. In other words, you should NOT go to the gym each week to try to set PR’s. The primary reason why I like 5/3/1 is that you are working off of percentages based on your max in those lifts and there is a de-load week. More importantly, see how your body reacts and make adjustments based on your goals.

Also, don’t forget to do include neck and hand work in your training. Working on the neck and hands helps in combat sports.

17

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Others have already given you good advice regarding scheduling your resistance training and skill training, so I won’t rehash that.

What I will say is that there is actually a decent amount of things you can do solo at home for your BJJ that will pay dividends in your training.

The most basic thing is to work on your basic ground mobility skills:
-shrimping/hip escape
-bridge and roll
-hip heist
-sit-out
-pelvis kick-ups (can also be done to a triangle leg position or while rotating to simulate throwing up an armbar)
-leg tuck under to leg lock position from knees
-front shoulder roll
-back shoulder roll
-Granby roll
-butterfly sweep mechanics
-back slide out (and return if you have the flexibility and control) from a plow/stacked position
-technical/tactical get-up
-wall walking/inverting in the guard
-hip switches

All of these require nothing but some floor space (and a wall for the wall walks) but will all directly translate to your BJJ skill development.

You can of course also drill stand-up grappling mobility skills solo such as:
-Double leg/high crotch penetration step
-sweep single penetration step
-low single penetration mechanics
-sprawling (and circling to the back/off at an angle)
-sprawling and re-shooting
-jamming with your hands or forearms and circling away
-back stepping (to set up a hip throw variation)

Truth be told, once you gain some more experience you can actually “shadow grapple/wrestle” just like you can “shadow box” and can include throws, counter throws, submissions, submission defenses, and pretty much everything that would happen in a BJJ/grappling match while doing so. Obviously you are not working against true resistance and nothing can replace working with real training partners, but if you can’t make it to class as often as you like these types of exercises and drills can still be very useful and allow you to practice the skills you do know more frequently. At this point you may not be familiar with all of the above mentioned movements that I mentioned, so you can just drill what you do know or even what skills you have learned thus far. There are also quite a few good vids on youtube demoing many of these movements if you’d like a visual reference.

Good luck.[/quote]

Thanks for the long list of movements and drills that I can perform. I’ll definitely look them up and see what i can do in the confines of my home and create some sort of training sess for them! :slight_smile: This is only temporary though as I would definitely be joining more regular classes in a few months time.

18

[quote]Jarvan wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
If you wanna get good at either, don’t lift.

Save your energy, for what matters.

And if you think lifting supplements martial arts, you’re absolutely right, but you’re a complete beginner and most likely don’t know how to utilize lifting for sport.
[/quote]

I’ll chime in here - while I’d agree if he had never lifted before, I think someone who has been lifting for longer periods will have an easier time maintaining the mass and strength he has by still touching weights but less frequently. I once decided to drop weights and suddenly found myself in a lower weight class, with the uncomfortable feeling that I couldn’t do what I used to. Just something to consider.
[/quote]

You felt you lost your capacity to perform in martial arts from not lifting? Not sure what you mean from that last statement.
And of course lifting will help you add mass or size, but is that so pertinent to the OP’s course? He doesn’t specifically state he wants to add, subtract, or maintain mass. And let’s say OP did want to pursue the ambivalent goal of being phenomenal at muay thai, bjj, and get shredded all at once. How often does that actually come to fruition?
I’ll tell ya.

Never.

Either one of two things happen. The trainee gets fried out, or they get injured. BJJ in itself is tremendous work. Muay Thai in itself is tremendous work. And sudden spikes in ‘NEW’ type of workload causes tremendous stress in the body. Especially in the ‘fragile’ ball and socket joint, your hips, and knees.

If you do train, I am almost certain that you know many many practitioners that have shitty knees, shoulders, and hips. And because of that, they can never train full force. What they do do, is talk about physical therapy, get wrapped up like a mummy before rolling, talk about how they’re getting old when they’re only 30, blame their shitty back or hips… And in the end, they doubt their future.

And most of this happens because…

people try to do too much, too soon, with the wrong information… then they raise their fist to the heavens and blame their terrible genetics.

*Please note that I am not at all diminishing the importance of proper lifting.
More likely than not, a trainee will have many imbalances… all of which can be rectified through weight training. However, not all beginners have the money or access to coaches to walk them through these things. With that said, it’s a safer bet for beginners to just have some fun in the sport, first. The rest will follow on its own.

[/quote]

Thanks for the long and thought out post!

I would definitely like to be good/great in what I do, but I know from past experiences to be realistic. So I’ll definitely be planning for the long term instead of expecting to be phenomenal in 6 months, get burnt out and quit. :slight_smile:

Currently at 72-73ishKG and about 13-15% BF. (Studying sports science in university so i had the chance to get a legit DEXA scan done on me before. :slight_smile: ) As I’m still a total beginner, I wouldn’t expect to be fighting anytime soon (at least not until i’ve had a year or so of training). So I would like to maintain my weight or drop down to 70kg over the course of the year. I believe lifting would help me maintain strength, muscle and work out imbalances. But yes i also do agree that lifting volume should be significantly reduced.

I do think my work capacity is pretty decent though as I used to train twice a day for basketball to a total of about 12 training sessions/week. I’m also studying sports injuries at the moment, so i’ll be sure to take note if i’m experiencing any symptoms of overuse injuries due to training. :slight_smile:

19

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
You are already a step ahead of the game based on your level of planning and thinking already. If you are ambitious about learning and becoming good at Muay Thai and BJJ, then you will have to cut back on your strength training volume. Both sports are VERY demanding on their own. Many individuals starting out underestimate the physical demands. Moreover, you are not just dealing with the physical exhaustion while training. The mind is also working hard while trying to learn each sport. You’ll often become even more fatigued as a result. Try not to take on too much at once. Gradually build up your “work capacity.” Keep a log and pay attention to when you have good days and bad days in the gym. This can be a guide as to which kind of rest/recovery protocol you can adopt in your training. As you progress, you will see areas that you can adjust as you begin to work from week to week.

As for strength training, look up 5/3/1 and possibly Westside for Skinny Bastards 3. Ideally, you should lift twice per week. When you are lifting, perform compound movements. The Squat and Deadlift are my two favorites. Keep in mind that both lifts will tax your central nervous system, so in addition to training in Muay Thai and BJJ, you have to keep a keen eye on how you approach those lifts. In other words, you should NOT go to the gym each week to try to set PR’s. The primary reason why I like 5/3/1 is that you are working off of percentages based on your max in those lifts and there is a de-load week. More importantly, see how your body reacts and make adjustments based on your goals.

Also, don’t forget to do include neck and hand work in your training. Working on the neck and hands helps in combat sports. [/quote]

Great advice. I actually went to the gym today (third time for the week) and I could barely squat 80kg because my legs were fatigued from pad work and some cardio conditioning yesterday. (and i hit 105x5x3sets the day before!) So i just did some benching, presses and shadow boxing.

I’ve done both 531 and WFSB3 before so i’d definitely look into it. “not going into the gym each week to try to set PRs” really makes sense to me now. I love lifting so it will be hard but hey, if doing less helps me get better, i’m all for it.

any advice for neck work though? Or would i have to buy a neck harness?

Thanks. :slight_smile:

20

[quote]LTKO wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
Why are you training BJJ and Muay Thai?[/quote]

I thought that it’d be a good idea to learn a striking and grappling art :)[/quote]

The really important question is why are you lifting? Not questioning the value of lifting in general, but you may need to revise your goals in the weight room so that lifting will not interfere with your martial arts