I do like underhand rows haven’t done them for a while but I can definitely “feel” them. I’m also enjoying antagonist pairings for horizontal and vertical pressing, Brian’s programming has plenty of back work in it.
I do always find it difficult to get my back sore, even with cable work, heavy chins and rows come closest to any real soreness.
Maybe it’s the stretching part? I have no trouble letting the muscles get lengthened during a pull up, but it’s a little harder on a row. Maybe it’s just not the right move for my goals. I actually do rows for thickness, and pull ups for width. I might have it backwards, but I should still achieve the same results by pairing those.
I’m thinking about switching to an incline DB row, but my arms are long and my bench kind of gets in the way.
Here’s today’s heavy single with 455. I think it moved well. 
Now that deep water is over, I’m done with BB rows. Cable rows to the bottom of the rib cage with a neutral spine, chest supported rows, dB rows, and the isolateral hammer strength plate loaded rows, plus lat pulldowns - all so much better for lats, IMO. The compromising position definitely works more stuff in BB rows, but if the goal is hypertrophy of my lats, it does NOTHING but impede the work I could be doing to my lats.
By the way bro, LOOK AT THIS 455 REP PRE-SURGERY compared to this latest one!
Thanks for that reminder! I feel like this is the strongest I’ve ever been on deads. I even had a few cleans with 240 that were snappy today.
I feel great and enjoy these deadlift sessions. I hit a lifetime 3RM with 455 the last time I hit this phase and I felt like I could’ve done five at the same RPE today.
That old rep you shared was also on the friendly Texas deadlift bar.
That looked like the first pull of a true 10RM, if not more.
I’m trying not to get carried away with my expectations. In two weeks, I’ll go for broke and set a new 1RM. 510 will be a PR, but… I want more. I feel like I’m capable of more. I’ll probably start with 510 for the new PR and then go from there. I’d like a run at 525 and 550. My all time best is 545 on the deadlift bar but I’m enjoying my home gym so I’ll be using my bar.
(I keep separate records for regular bars and the deadlift bar.)
Do yourself a favor and pull the 510 and go RIGHT back to what you were doing, and give it a few weeks before the 525. Long game, bro. 600 is yours next year with more to come if you go slow.
Well, that’s the other variable. After this, I’m switching to a two day a week approach so I can force myself to improve my conditioning. I posted a screen shot here.
I’ll probably make some tweaks to that such as swapping DB rows in place of underhand rows. I also don’t think it’ll do me any good to do singles and triples on them so I might just do the 5x5 @ 75% every week and add 5 lbs per cycle. I just realized I can do sets of 10 with my DB maxed out so that might not work. I’ll have to see if incline DB rows are an option.
I’m having the same thoughts about OHP. It would be similar to 5s PRO or a 5x5 SSL. I could also just try the program as written (rows and pulls aren’t specified so I can tweak those).
I am sure it is somewhere up there in the many posts about PUs, crossfit, etc…but why not just pull-ups for lats? I have always struggled to get lat engagement from any of the usual suspects (trap bar farmer walks work if you have one), but a few years ago I made a conscious choice to make good old fashion pull-ups a priority, and it has paid off handsomely. I rarely focus on it as a topic of discussion in my own log, but that is because for me now it is a given so I don’t have to program it.
That’s super speedy man, you’ve definitely got 600 in you soon(ish) if you don’t rush to it and get injured.
I agree with yourself and flap, the only way I “feel” my lats work is cable work.
I do plenty of pull ups and consider that my lat work. Above the video and discussion with Flap, I mentioned that I’m looking for back thickness with my rowing. When I first started lifting, my brother taught me a bro split and we trained six days a week. He passed on the bro (gym version) knowledge that wide grip pulling is for width and narrow grip is for thickness. I don’t know if any of that is true, but I’m searching for a back thickness movement.
Thanks! And thanks for the little jab there about injuries.
For the record, none of my injuries requiring surgical repair happened in the gym. But, yes, I’m getting old and need to be careful. I also consider feeling good and pushing it counts as being careful. It’s pushing it when you feel off that’s dumb.
Edit: just browsed some T-Nation stuff and I think I need to go back to Pendlay rows with a wide grip and flared elbow path. I’ll also try some chest supported stuff to see if I can make it work with my setup.
Wide grip stuff with flared elbows is upperback. Don’t take my word for it - do an exercise with a wide grip and flared elbows and have your wife feel your lats. They’ll feel like mush. Then do a close grip and get your spine neutral and drive your elbows down, you’ll feel them contract hard. So the width thing from wide grip is a myth, but working your upperback will give thickness, whereas width comes from having bigger lats, so you’re still looking at doing the right stuff, haha.
It also feeds into the argument of horizontal pulling vs vertical pulling for lats. If I do both then surely I’ll have all the bases covered, right?
I think elbow direction is the key here: bringing your elbows to your hips and back is going to involve more lat. Obviously they aren’t mutually exclusive - beginning a lift with a wide grip and flared elbows is more likely to have you pull those elbows up and high.
Also probably where we get the horizontal vs. vertical; straight-line elbow pull without conscious thought will likely end up more lat-focused with vertical pulls and more upper back-focused with horizontal movements.
If I think about sweeping my elbow into my pockets and back to the ceiling, though, I can still make a wide-grip row more lat-focused. On the flip side, I could turn a narrow-grip pull-down into an upper back movement by tucking my head and keeping my elbows out.
This may be too much minutia, because maybe you just solve it by picking the movements that make it easier for you to follow the right line of pull, but paying attention to it does seem to make a difference for me.
Which muscles do you actually want to focus on? Rhomboid and Teres are both going to do more visually for you, and probably would be better served with Kroc Rows or Reverse Flyes. Heavy. You can do these supported to focus on upper back instead of letting lower back fatigue dictate weight and volume. Same muscles as a Pendlay, but lets you use more overload. You can probably do a lot more weight with these than you think once you get used to the movement. Everyone is different, but I’m as thick as I am wide and I have never done rows particularly - they’re a thing I do if the equipment I want is busy and I want to do something. My chest is north of 50" for reference.
I used to do reverse fly’s religiously. They were always a part of my back work. I might try to super set chest supported reverse fly’s with some Pendlay rows or incline DB rows. Fly’s first, then rows… or the other way. I’ll try both and see if they achieve the desired result (feeling the correct muscles work). You nailed it with the muscle identification. I’d like to look thicker right down the middle of my back.
I was worried that I’d come off as knit picking or something. “Lats” tends to be a catch all for the back, so I wasn’t sure on intent. I, personally, like to visualize the muscles that I feel should be working and focus on making sure that they are what contracts. Form will be what it will be if I get the function, in my head anyways.
I have an Exercise Science degree so I know my anatomy. I’ve been giving underhand rows a shot because people bigger and stronger than me do them and I saw them in Deep Water. Success leaves clues, right?
As I get older, I don’t have time for majoring in the minors. I believe that if I can get strong on some compound movements then my physique will be fine. Lately, my pull up sessions have done a great job of targeting my lats, but my rowing sessions leave a lot to be desired. They’re difficult to do, but I experience no DOMs or fatigue afterwards. I know DOMs alone isn’t an indicator of a good workout, but it’s some nice feedback to let you know you at least trained the muscles you intended to train.
This is one of the down sides to training at home. I had a lot better luck targeting the right things with cables and chest supported set-ups when I went to a commercial gym.