Just An Observation

Training
21

i think this is an interesting drill, and i’ve been thinking about stuff like this lately (re: Combatives/DT thread)…

personally, i’ve had people do this to me, and i KO’d a high school buddy once, and stabbed another with a pencil, almost catching him in the eye. that was also before i became a soldier and police officer… apparently i’m wired a little different than most poeple.

i think if some people have problems “turning it on,” then this is worth a try. i think the longer you train in any martial arts system, the harder it is to a) keep interested and b) keep improving. reality fighting is even more challenging, since it’s simply so much harder to simulate attacks.

MP, good forsight on not drilling this on people that are have “vigillance,” issues, btw…

22

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

MP, good forsight on not drilling this on people that are have “vigillance,” issues, btw…[/quote]

Agreed, I’m a little less against the idea now that it’s been clarified.

Love the keys drill, although I’m not so sure than flight is a bad response. So long as they’re getting away, it sound like a good reaction to me.

23

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

MP, good forsight on not drilling this on people that are have “vigillance,” issues, btw…[/quote]

Agreed, I’m a little less against the idea now that it’s been clarified.

Love the keys drill, although I’m not so sure than flight is a bad response. So long as they’re getting away, it sound like a good reaction to me.[/quote]

Yeah, fleeing the scene is probably a better choice in many cases than staying and fighting. If you had someone with you (child, elderly relative, etc…) that you had to defend, then I’d say to stay and fight. But if it’s just you and you think that you can safely flee to another location, then I’d say to do that. It would also depend on how many attackers there are, what their physicality is, what your physicality is, and a host of other factors.

24

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

MP, good forsight on not drilling this on people that are have “vigillance,” issues, btw…[/quote]

Agreed, I’m a little less against the idea now that it’s been clarified.

Love the keys drill, although I’m not so sure than flight is a bad response. So long as they’re getting away, it sound like a good reaction to me.[/quote]

Yeah, fleeing the scene is probably a better choice in many cases than staying and fighting. If you had someone with you (child, elderly relative, etc…) that you had to defend, then I’d say to stay and fight. But if it’s just you and you think that you can safely flee to another location, then I’d say to do that. It would also depend on how many attackers there are, what their physicality is, what your physicality is, and a host of other factors.[/quote]

Yep, I agree, escape is ideal. I just want them to choose to escape because its they’ve decided its the best option, not because they’re panicking. I saw some autopsy photos of a woman who was fatally stabbed in the back and neck while fleeing, and frankly they scared the shit out of me.

Batman to answer your question, yes, those people are off limits because of potential PTSD or a potential hair-trigger super-strong reaction due to current or past experiences.
If I do it with a student in class I’ll pick someone I have trained with enough to trust them to respond in a way that won’t send them or their “attacker” to the hospital. Also the attacker has to be someone I trust. Then we’ll use whatever just happened as a topic for brief discussion of the concept of surprise attacks, so everyone has at least experienced it visually. Seeing that sort of thing tends to put a knot in people’s stomach if they aren’t used to it, so they still get a little adrenaline spike to seal in the memory.

Btw, if y’all have any ideas for improvements on these methods, or drills to instill a freeze response for students to have to break through, I’ll be happy to try them out and report back.

25

this is rediculous. i regularly CCW or carry a knife. if i was attacked/grabed in such a way where i could not get PID of my attacker, they could easily get stabbed or shot.

at the fighthouse, we will play the game where one guy will get on hands and knees behind someone and another instructor will try to push him over the downed guy. it’s silly, but helps with situational awareness.

your idea/situation sounds both dangerous and leaves little room for risk management IMO

26

[quote]HolyMacaroni wrote:
this is rediculous. i regularly CCW or carry a knife. if i was attacked/grabed in such a way where i could not get PID of my attacker, they could easily get stabbed or shot.

at the fighthouse, we will play the game where one guy will get on hands and knees behind someone and another instructor will try to push him over the downed guy. it’s silly, but helps with situational awareness.

your idea/situation sounds both dangerous and leaves little room for risk management IMO[/quote]

Fair enough, HolyMac. We wouldn’t do it to you. One of our instructors is on the county SWAT team & there’s no way in hell we’d do it to him. As I’ve said, soldiers, cops, etc are off limits. Only the people who want to play do so.

27

on a side note, i have a question for Miss Parker:

how many people in your class go around armed throughtout the day? i assumed that Texas has pretty reasonable gun laws, but am curious how many of your students carry knives, guns, pepper spray…

28

I don’t know, actually. Just about everyone I know, including me, carries a little knife. Several people I know also carry a gun in their car, even more have them at home.

I’ll ask my students this week & post back here in a few days.

29

about simulating an adrenaline spike: I just came home from my hill sprints and the ways my legs are trembling feels similar to “the jitters”… I guess my spinning heel hook would look pretty awkward right now :wink:

30

[quote]partybison wrote:
about simulating an adrenaline spike: I just came home from my hill sprints and the ways my legs are trembling feels similar to “the jitters”… I guess my spinning heel hook would look pretty awkward right now :wink: [/quote]

I know I’ve had coaches use hard conditioning/elevated hear rate to simulate an adrenaline dump. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to result in the same physiological changes as a real or perceived threat. It likely has to do with brain chemistry and the parts of the brain affected by Survival Stress Reaction as opposed to simple exertion.

31

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]partybison wrote:
about simulating an adrenaline spike: I just came home from my hill sprints and the ways my legs are trembling feels similar to “the jitters”… I guess my spinning heel hook would look pretty awkward right now :wink: [/quote]

I know I’ve had coaches use hard conditioning/elevated hear rate to simulate an adrenaline dump. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to result in the same physiological changes as a real or perceived threat. It likely has to do with brain chemistry and the parts of the brain affected by Survival Stress Reaction as opposed to simple exertion. [/quote]

This is true. Seems like I read that in Grossman’s “On Combat” (?) The shock/fear element is necessary to induce the freeze. Sometimes my instructors will try to get that from me by telling me we’re about to do one thing, and as I’m preparing for that they’ll suddenly come in hard with something else. Also they’ve thrown a glass of water in my face the instant before they attack. I’ve even been slapped first a couple of times. Not too hard, as it makes them uncomfortable, but anything to create a true WTF? moment.

32

How about a sparring session where you get sucker-punched by another student (or students), not knowing that they’ll be jumping in? Stacking-by-surprise was a great stressor for academy students, and they quickly learned not to get too engaged with your primary opponent.

33

i like both those ideas…i’ll bring that up at work. especially the glass of water…simple, but most people will get confused. a dude i went to HS with kicked off his shoe into a guys’ face right before he punched him…KO’d him, put his shoe back on and left. same concept, though…

we had training at work the other day, and discussed how people will do goofy shit when adrenaline is flowing. one dude was taking a report from an assault victim, and had a pen and notepad in his hands. the suspect returned to the scene, and he ended up in a foot pursuit and had a stand-off situation. when he holstered his gun (and the suspect was in custody), he realized he was holding his pen and gun in the same hand, and notepad in the other hand (although he had no recollection of it). weird stuff…

34

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
How about a sparring session where you get sucker-punched by another student (or students), not knowing that they’ll be jumping in? Stacking-by-surprise was a great stressor for academy students, and they quickly learned not to get too engaged with your primary opponent.[/quote]

This is an awesome drill & we do it. Nice!! Also, we also mix up the concept: sometimes instead of the sucker punch you get suddenly dragged off by one or even two surprise attackers. You’ve been sparring so you have your boxing gloves on, but they don’t, so they can grab you & drag you off while you fight to get away. We never met a kidnapping drill we didn’t like. :slight_smile:

35

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
i like both those ideas…i’ll bring that up at work. especially the glass of water…simple, but most people will get confused. a dude i went to HS with kicked off his shoe into a guys’ face right before he punched him…KO’d him, put his shoe back on and left. same concept, though…

we had training at work the other day, and discussed how people will do goofy shit when adrenaline is flowing. one dude was taking a report from an assault victim, and had a pen and notepad in his hands. the suspect returned to the scene, and he ended up in a foot pursuit and had a stand-off situation. when he holstered his gun (and the suspect was in custody), he realized he was holding his pen and gun in the same hand, and notepad in the other hand (although he had no recollection of it). weird stuff…[/quote]

That is wild about the pen & notepad. Adrenaline is so powerful. I tend to start babbling the same thing repeatedly. The first time one of them slapped me as a precursor to a choke, I yelled repeatedly during the whole defense, “Goddamnit I’m going to fucking kill you! Goddamnit I’m going to fucking kill you!” I wasn’t saying it on purpose, it was just coming out of me…

The glass of water is really effective. It shot into my eyes & blinded me, but they were still attacking, so I had to fight. Another time it shot all up into a guy’s nose so he was coughing & couldn’t breathe while he defended.

I have a friend who will say something crazy to distract you when he pulls a weapon on you. So, the other night during gun defenses he pulled the weapon & at the same time in a normal voice asked the defender, “Do you fuck pigs?” The person was so focused on the strange question he messed up the defense.

36

Personal thought on this stuff is that if you enjoy playing scenarios that are ‘preparing you for the street’ and you are all in on it then cool for you.

I train as an athlete for a sport. I have a feeling that my training would carry over into helping me defend myself and also making me carry myself (and look) like someone who isn’t an easy target however in reality, even living in Mexico, the chances of me being involved in a life or death violent confrontation are tiny. I spend my time doing the things I enjoy (as I am sure do you.)

37

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Personal thought on this stuff is that if you enjoy playing scenarios that are ‘preparing you for the street’ and you are all in on it then cool for you.

I train as an athlete for a sport. I have a feeling that my training would carry over into helping me defend myself and also making me carry myself (and look) like someone who isn’t an easy target however in reality, even living in Mexico, the chances of me being involved in a life or death violent confrontation are tiny. I spend my time doing the things I enjoy (as I am sure do you.)[/quote]

Hi, CB. I have no doubt that your training would help you in a confrontation, and agree that the chances of this happening to any of us outside law enforcement are small - and even smaller than normal since we train. Which is why I opened the thread saying it might be of no practical use to sport combat guys. I just like doing this stuff & enjoy sharing ideas about it with like-minded people. :slight_smile:

38

Love the glass of water idea, Miss P and the stacking drill sounds great as well devildog. I have seen something like the shoe thing IRL, and it was awesome. One we use from time to time is a simple hood drill where the trainee is led into the training area with a spit hood over their head. Usually as they come in there will be a lot of ambient noise (loud music, banging, shouting). Then we spin them around a bit and when everybody’s ready we yank the hood and have them assess and address various threats, mostly at extreme close quarters. The anticipation can cause a decent amount of anxiety/stress, especially for people who are unfamiliar with the drill.

Another thing I’ll throw out is that when someone delivers a response that is less desirable we make a point of “rewinding” the scenario and allowing them to replay events to a successful conclusion. This way the trainee takes away a positive mental image to replay in their mind. This is more for the in depth simulation type stuff than the day to day, but I still think it’s important.

39

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Love the glass of water idea, Miss P and the stacking drill sounds great as well devildog. I have seen something like the shoe thing IRL, and it was awesome. One we use from time to time is a simple hood drill where the trainee is led into the training area with a spit hood over their head. Usually as they come in there will be a lot of ambient noise (loud music, banging, shouting). Then we spin them around a bit and when everybody’s ready we yank the hood and have them assess and address various threats, mostly at extreme close quarters. The anticipation can cause a decent amount of anxiety/stress, especially for people who are unfamiliar with the drill.

Another thing I’ll throw out is that when someone delivers a response that is less desirable we make a point of “rewinding” the scenario and allowing them to replay events to a successful conclusion. This way the trainee takes away a positive mental image to replay in their mind. This is more for the in depth simulation type stuff than the day to day, but I still think it’s important. [/quote]

Ooh, I love both these ideas. I’ve tried hooding people before, also tried wrapping them up in a sheet so their whole body is sort of hooded, but had limited success. I will try it your way.

We do the rewind on single techniques, but not on longer stuff. I will try it next time the opportunity presents itself. Thank you!

40

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Personal thought on this stuff is that if you enjoy playing scenarios that are ‘preparing you for the street’ and you are all in on it then cool for you.

I train as an athlete for a sport. I have a feeling that my training would carry over into helping me defend myself and also making me carry myself (and look) like someone who isn’t an easy target however in reality, even living in Mexico, the chances of me being involved in a life or death violent confrontation are tiny. I spend my time doing the things I enjoy (as I am sure do you.)[/quote]

Most times if you’re not looking for trouble, you won’t have problems.

And when I do have trouble, it never plays out like I think it will.