I’m 28 and for the most part they dont bother me.Only once did I stop doing them because I had tendonitis in my knees from squatting (one squat got loose and I think my knees went too far forward and got irritated).The jump shrugs bothered my knees so I stopped them for a while.Doubt the jump shrugs would do any significant damage compared to squatting for years.I have never done jump squats.
[quote]Bigpull wrote:
Doubt the jump shrugs would do any significant damage compared to squatting for years.I have never done jump squats.[/quote]
You doubt it huh? When a person runs he places about three times his own body weight on his joints. If the guy weighs 200 pounds that means he hits the ground with about a 600 pound impact!
This tells me that when your body leaves the ground upon striking it again that is about three times his weight coming down on his joints (an actual jump being higher than a running step may very well double the impact, I’m not sure). Add that to the Barbell that you are “jump shruging” with. If that weighs 200 pounds and you weigh 200 pounds that means your hitting your joints with a total of about 1,200 pounds each and every time you do a rep. And again, it could be more as this is a “jump” and not a “step” as in running.
I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that that sort of pressure on a regular basis is going to cause eventual joint damage.
Call me overly safe 
I weigh 215 and have gone up to 425 pounds so 1075? I might agree with your thinking but my feet never leave the ground completely so I am going to go out on a limb and say that the force you say I am putting on my joints isn’t that significant because of that simple fact. Like I said, I would think years of squatting would be more harmful.
Jump shrugs are for teaching the snatch, clean and their derivatives.
After you get the hang of them, start doing pulls instead. You don’t have to ‘jump’ off the floor to perform an explosive triple extension.
[quote]Bigpull wrote:
I weigh 215 and have gone up to 425 pounds so 1075? I might agree with your thinking but my feet never leave the ground completely so I am going to go out on a limb and say that the force you say I am putting on my joints isn’t that significant because of that simple fact. Like I said, I would think years of squatting would be more harmful.[/quote]
If your feet never leave the ground then obviously the previous post does not apply to you. However, you are not performing “jumping shrugs” either.
Squatting, if performed properly, will not adversely effect your joints, even over a period of years. I cannot say that about certain other movements.
[quote]
ZEB wrote:
If your feet never leave the ground then obviously the previous post does not apply to you. However, you are not performing “jumping shrugs” either.
Squatting, if performed properly, will not adversely effect your joints, even over a period of years. I cannot say that about certain other movements.[/quote]
If YOU define jump shrugs as jump shrugs only if your feet completely leave the ground then fine but the exercise is called jump shrugs- whether it’s with dumbells or a barbell that is what it’s called. Have you ever done them?
[quote]Bigpull wrote:
ZEB wrote:
If your feet never leave the ground then obviously the previous post does not apply to you. However, you are not performing “jumping shrugs” either.
Squatting, if performed properly, will not adversely effect your joints, even over a period of years. I cannot say that about certain other movements.
If YOU define jump shrugs as jump shrugs only if your feet completely leave the ground then fine but the exercise is called jump shrugs- whether it’s with dumbells or a barbell that is what it’s called. Have you ever done them?[/quote]
I have done them and I have seen others do them as well. They (and I) actually “jump” as the exercise suggests. I’m sure that they can be performed without the jumping part, but they are called “Jump Shrugs” for a reason. No?
Oh…and I don’t like them for the reasons stated in my prior posts.
I love these. I have used them occasionally for couple years. I have never been injured per se. Though I have tweaked my mid-back before doing these. (FWIW, I have also tweaked by back doing box squats, bent-over GMs, leg presses, military presses, french presses, jogging- yes, jogging, chasing my son in the back yard, moving furniture, the list goes on).
My thought on it this lift is that it should be fast with relatively light weight as compared to a flat footed shrug. Lately, I work up to 495 for 3 or 4 in regular shrugs. Whereas, I would take these at 315 or 365 for 3 to 5 or until my speed/coordination starts to fail. Truth be told, more weight than that would pop out of my hand unless I went to a mixed or hook grip.
Just thought I’d add two cents to this post.
Zeb~
Your comment about the forces created during a sprint are correct, but the application is far off. Force is speed and weight. The easiest way to explain this is to have you review Thib’s work here. So in a sprint F = mA, where in this exercise F = Ma… unless your body while traveling forward and downward during a sprint is moving no quicker than it does during a heavy Shrug-pull… I assume you get the point.
In terms of the Olympic Lifts and their hybrids, this is a very safe lift, especially if your focus is on MaxF over big weights…
If it is hard to imagine the forces on your hips, knees, spine during this movement, imagine lifting an extremely heavy weight dynamically to your shoulders, and then absorbing all of that force in a full front squat position… as in a Power Clean.
Yet O-Lifters do it for years.
If you are to train for performance, then the protocols chosen are very different than if you are training to be puffy for the sake of merely walking around with flaired lats…
Much like full-squats, cleans, snatches, jump squats, box squats, and all of the controversial lifts are perfectly safe if applied in a progressive, sound manner.
You aren’t overly safe, you are making a choice based on your needs and the focus of your training.
But, these types of lifts are not unsafe…
If you want to train your body to absorb and express power in a chaotic environment, maybe first introducing the ability to do these things might make sense in a more controlled environement like the weight room.
I wonder what running laterally for 10 yards, and then accelerating forward full-speed into a 225 pound man who runs a 4.5 forty does to your hips, knees, and low back…?
Now imagine the same scenario, but without the training of ‘force absorption’ under your belt as preparation…
Hope this made sense without offending…
Jumanji
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Just thought I’d add two cents to this post.
Zeb~
Your comment about the forces created during a sprint are correct, but the application is far off. Force is speed and weight. The easiest way to explain this is to have you review Thib’s work here. So in a sprint F = mA, where in this exercise F = Ma… unless your body while traveling forward and downward during a sprint is moving no quicker than it does during a heavy Shrug-pull… I assume you get the point.
In terms of the Olympic Lifts and their hybrids, this is a very safe lift, especially if your focus is on MaxF over big weights…
If it is hard to imagine the forces on your hips, knees, spine during this movement, imagine lifting an extremely heavy weight dynamically to your shoulders, and then absorbing all of that force in a full front squat position… as in a Power Clean.
Yet O-Lifters do it for years.
If you are to train for performance, then the protocols chosen are very different than if you are training to be puffy for the sake of merely walking around with flaired lats…
Much like full-squats, cleans, snatches, jump squats, box squats, and all of the controversial lifts are perfectly safe if applied in a progressive, sound manner.
You aren’t overly safe, you are making a choice based on your needs and the focus of your training.
But, these types of lifts are not unsafe…
If you want to train your body to absorb and express power in a chaotic environment, maybe first introducing the ability to do these things might make sense in a more controlled environement like the weight room.
I wonder what running laterally for 10 yards, and then accelerating forward full-speed into a 225 pound man who runs a 4.5 forty does to your hips, knees, and low back…?
Now imagine the same scenario, but without the training of ‘force absorption’ under your belt as preparation…
Hope this made sense without offending…
Jumanji[/quote]
Excellent post. You said all I wanted to say plus some.
[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Just thought I’d add two cents to this post.
Zeb~
Your comment about the forces created during a sprint are correct, but the application is far off. Force is speed and weight. The easiest way to explain this is to have you review Thib’s work here. So in a sprint F = mA, where in this exercise F = Ma… unless your body while traveling forward and downward during a sprint is moving no quicker than it does during a heavy Shrug-pull… I assume you get the point.
In terms of the Olympic Lifts and their hybrids, this is a very safe lift, especially if your focus is on MaxF over big weights…
If it is hard to imagine the forces on your hips, knees, spine during this movement, imagine lifting an extremely heavy weight dynamically to your shoulders, and then absorbing all of that force in a full front squat position… as in a Power Clean.
Yet O-Lifters do it for years.
If you are to train for performance, then the protocols chosen are very different than if you are training to be puffy for the sake of merely walking around with flaired lats…
Much like full-squats, cleans, snatches, jump squats, box squats, and all of the controversial lifts are perfectly safe if applied in a progressive, sound manner.
You aren’t overly safe, you are making a choice based on your needs and the focus of your training.
But, these types of lifts are not unsafe…
If you want to train your body to absorb and express power in a chaotic environment, maybe first introducing the ability to do these things might make sense in a more controlled environement like the weight room.
I wonder what running laterally for 10 yards, and then accelerating forward full-speed into a 225 pound man who runs a 4.5 forty does to your hips, knees, and low back…?
Now imagine the same scenario, but without the training of ‘force absorption’ under your belt as preparation…
Hope this made sense without offending…
Jumanji[/quote]
Jumanji:
Offended? Not the least bit. You ought to visit the political threads once in a while if you want to see people offended. On second thought don’t waste your time. I wonder why I waste mine (over there) at times.
As to the topic at hand: I agree that there are other movements which stress the body. The Olympic lifts and variations of those lifts fit the bill. And I argee that they indeed stress the joints.
I also agree that if you are going to play certain sports such as Football that various movements of this type are needed in order to prepare the body for the rigors of the game.
I also agree that in the short run not much damage will be realized from doing any of these things. Especially due to the fact that most performing such movements have not yet hit their 30th birthday, and many are barely in their 20’s
We agree up to now! However, you have not addressed my main point.
My original point is that performing certain ballistic movements with weights over a period of time will indeed cause some joint problems in many if not most people.
I cited the John Grimik example as only one. Having been in this game for almost 35 years I have the pleasure of seeing others make mistakes along the way and then watching the ramifications of those mistakes. Everything has a price. The pitty is that many don’t know the price until the bill comes and then it’s far too late!
I used to train with a group of guys who were interested in gaining at any cost. As you know the “Jump Shrug” the “Jump Squat” etc. are not new. These movements have been around for many many years. There were two guys in my “group” back in the late 70’s and early 80’s who did in fact perform various jumping movements with Barbells and Dumbbells. Today both suffer from arthritis of the hips and knees! While I am out performing sprints (on grass) and doing other things that I used to do when I was younger they have become fat and take pain meds like Celebrex.
Granted, we will never know if they would have had arthritis anyway, maybe it runs in their families. There is no way to tell. However, myself and a few other guys who decided not to perform these movements have not suffered from the same problems our friends did who did the jumping Barbell (and other outlandish) movements. Could be a coincidence.
Yes, by all means do Jumping Shrugs and Jumping Squats and all sorts of ballistic movements where you are shocking the body with heavy weight. It will most likely help you with the sport of your choice in the short term. However, keep in mind that there is a thin line between hard training and doing long term damage to your body.
Also keep in mind that no matter how many of you choose to jump with barbell in hand it won’t effect my joints one bit. Please consider this an attempt to help you and nothing else. I think you should train as you see fit.
After all what do I know anyway
Zeb~
Agreed.