[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
If you do start judo make sure to STOP BENCHING IMMEDIATELY. The key to success in judo is making your chest as weak as possible. Fighting Irish will back me up on this one. [/quote]
Is there another thread discussing this?
[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
If you do start judo make sure to STOP BENCHING IMMEDIATELY. The key to success in judo is making your chest as weak as possible. Fighting Irish will back me up on this one. [/quote]
LOL. Got you man.
Thanks for all of the discussion, I think perhaps I’ll try another martial art for grappling/groundwork. There is a gracie BJJ class not far from my current residence so I may give that a try. I’m thinking boxing and muay thai with some BJJ would make a well-rounded choice. I’m thinking there will be slightly less chance of long term injury at a local BJJ submission grappling tournament than a judo competition.
These injuries in Judo such as broken necks, broken legs and torn ALC or something I was reading about that require surgery and such that may or may not actually happen to me, just don’t appeal to me.
[quote]vega91 wrote:
Thanks for all of the discussion, I think perhaps I’ll try another martial art for grappling/groundwork. There is a gracie BJJ class not far from my current residence so I may give that a try. I’m thinking boxing and muay thai with some BJJ would make a well-rounded choice. I’m thinking there will be slightly less chance of long term injury at a local BJJ submission grappling tournament than a judo competition.
These injuries in Judo such as broken necks, broken legs and torn ALC or something I was reading about that require surgery and such that may or may not actually happen to me, just don’t appeal to me. [/quote]
You’re gonna get injured in GJJ as well. I practice GJJ and have had many injuries. Any grappling art is going to have its share of dangers and risk for injury. BJJ and GJJ have throws and take downs, since both are based on judo, that can get you hurt. Plus theres the spazz factor. If you training partner is frustrated, they can spazz out and really try to hurt you.
[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:
Steve-O-68 wrote:
Whoa.
Not speaking for all clubs/associations, but we don’t get promoted based on tournament performance. We get promoted by improving technique, mat time, and willingness to learn. I believe most are like this (at least the ones in my area).
Its a pretty common practice, in fact nationwide I would say its the norm.
This quote is from the United States Judo Federation " Promotion points may only be credited for wins against opponants of equal or higher rank, and must be obtained in USJF sanctioned events…" www.usjf.com/public/rank_requirement.pdf <<<< why did that link not turn red?
An Analysis of Judo Competition by Donn Draeger | Judo Info Quote : “The judoist for advancement in rank, and once established as a yudansha comment is more often than not forced to pay himself physically against opponents far younger than knee; opponents whom he is expected to defeat if he is to gain the advancement or if used to continue his popularity via the route of respect to other judoists.”
http://www.shihanryu.org/resources/kodokan.htm Quote : “This “drift” has become a major focus among many well intended Judoka, but in the minds of many Sensei, technique has suffered and Judo has become (more often than not) a sport in which “win at all costs” is the underlying objective. This emphasis on “Contest Proficiency” has caused the true meaning or purpose of Judo to be unclear and somewhat out of proportion to what was intended by Dr. Kano. This problem is surfaced nowhere more clearly than in “notion” that contest victories are rewarded with rapid rank promotions. Often this rapid rank advancement far exceeds the Judoka’s ability to understand Judo except in terms of scoring a contest point. Today, in the U.S.A., this incorrect emphasis is unfortunately found in the many of the Judo organizations. This misconception of Judo has grown to the extent that “the number of contest points” has become the underlying factor for advancement among many Judo organizations.”
I no longer have many contacts, like I use to, so maybe my opinion is dated. “Back in the day” (80’s and 90’s) in which I was in contact with and visited face-to-face many people nationwide, and appeared at one point or another in probably every martial arts magazine of any significance (Blackbelt, Karate Illustrated, Kung Fu etc) as well as some in other countries and knew many people around the nation - I would say it was more common than not that competition was the method of Kodokan related Judo advancement : if you could beat a black belt you deserved a black belt. I never did Judo formally, and was never ranked in it - but I did train with numerous judoka. But back then I trained with virtually everyone in traditional martial arts - I even once did a special training session with Oshima of the SKA and had him autograph the book Karate Do Kyohan.
Fun fact: I did train with some Judoka , whose Judo system that was formally called “Judo” but actually predated Kano’s version of Judo - and their advancement was not based on competition. But in the USA, in the 80’s and 90’s - rank WAS competition, as a rule in Kodokan.
I taught more years than most even spend in martial arts, but I have now been out of martial arts longer than most ever spend in it too… so my opinion may be out of date. Maybe competitions are no longer emphasized in judo. My martial arts are mostly memory : talking with a Tang Soo Do classmate about Bruce Lee dying, following Chuck Norris when he competed and Hayward Nishioka was the big name in Judo in this country.
[/quote]
OK this is starting to be a thread about spreading questionable facts.
The first two videos you showed are clearly not Judo, nor are they Judo players.
But you never responded to that, which leads me to believe you are more about spreading what ever your agenda is vs. reading.
Statically Soccer and track and field have the highest number of injuries in sports in the US.
Are their injuries in Judo sure, but there are far far more in American football that are worse.
Out of any martial arts- I would say the numbers for injuries would be highest , in things like wrestling- where the volume of competition is much higher then in Judo.
Ill Echo Jelly Roll in this ,any refutable school I have ever trained, attented, or taught in spends quite a bit of time acclimatizing beginners to Ukemi break-falls.
In fact far more so then in most other arts save for Akido.
See Falling is what we do. So we spend an inordinate time on that.
You mention that you have trained “some” judo, I would guess not that much cause most of your
points either not that accurate or are based on your observations gathering facts.
What ever your experience are, they are certainly not that well informed about Judo.
Your point about USAJ and Belt Promotion is not entirely true, if at all.
and represents a very small minority. Its a guideline. That is all.
The promotion via competition is used in small minority of schools in the US.
Very few clubs award promotions via competition, it takes a long time to
become Shodan, its very rarely accelerated. It also reflects a very small minority globally
Judo is not that popular in the States as to the rest of the world.
ZAck you might as well have told the OP never to leave the house, or train with weights or ANY martial art.
OP.
Go play some judo its fun as hell.
Go watch a class in your area, see if its good.
kmc
[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:
Holy crap, I just noticed you are from Missouri - if you are in the Kansas City area or more southernly in the Springfield/Joplin area I bet I knew your instructors instructor. I did not know as many in the St.Louis area until you cross over into Illinois around Scott Airforce base. [/quote]
I’m in Kansas City. I started with Steve Scott and trained with him until my layoff. Now I’m training under one of his blackbelt students.
[quote]Steve-O-68 wrote:
Zack Nelson wrote:
Holy crap, I just noticed you are from Missouri - if you are in the Kansas City area or more southernly in the Springfield/Joplin area I bet I knew your instructors instructor. I did not know as many in the St.Louis area until you cross over into Illinois around Scott Airforce base.
I’m in Kansas City. I started with Steve Scott and trained with him until my layoff. Now I’m training under one of his blackbelt students.
[/quote]
Hmm, I don’t know him. Do you know Ken Reginetter (sp?)? In the 80’s and 90’s he ran the AAU Judo and Jujutsu in KC. He was actually predominantly a Danzan Ryu Jujutsu teacher, but also represented Judo in the AAU in that area and Ketsugo.
Shoot, I just googled Steve Scott and his bio says he was introduced to Sambo by Ken Reginetter. I knew Ken, and in 1990 he got me involved with the Ketsugo guys, who made me a state representative and then they flaked. But Ken is/was a pretty dedicated grappler.
I don’t know Ken, but I’ve heard a lot about him. I think Steve took over as the local AAU guy.
[quote]vega91 wrote:
I’m thinking of learning Judo as a martial art. I don’t doubt it’s effectiveness if taught well and for it’s effectiveness as a means of self defense, that’s why I’m interested in learning Judo. However, I have practiced striking arts Boxing and Muay Thai for years now but I am worried about injuries from Judo. I have had some bruising and a bloody nose from boxing and a broken finger from a kick in Muay Thai, but they were short lived injuries.
I’m worried though about long term injuries from Judo. The idea of being thrown on my head and seriously damaging my neck/spinal chord or becoming paralysed from a throw is seriously putting me off the idea. Am I right to be worried about the idea? Amateur boxing and Muay Thai matches seem a lot more long term injury risk free than competitive Judo or even Judo in a recreational class for that matter.[/quote]
You’ll be fine. It’s not like Sensei is gonna pick you up, leap into the air and pile drive you head first into the ground, although that would be fucking awesome to watch and he’d probably get a medal for it. You’re aware you can get hurt, that should be enough. But don’t let it impair your training intensity.
Also, seriously? I probably haven’t been boxing as long as you, and I can definitely say I feel stupider than since I started. That’s a long term injury to me.
One thing that I had luck with, was sitting in on some Aikido Ukemi and using that when possible. Also, as weird as it sounds, try to relax when being thrown. Judo throws, when executed correctly for the most part are designed to throw you relatively safely so you land along an entire plane of your body, and slapping the mat takes a lot of the force out. But when you struggle with the throw, it all gets messed up and that’s when I’ve seen injuries happen. If the guy earns the throw, let em have the throw.
later
peter
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
v
You’ll be fine. It’s not like Sensei is gonna pick you up, leap into the air and pile drive you head first into the ground, although that would be fucking awesome to watch
[/quote]
hahahahahaha
OK this is starting to be a thread about spreading questionable facts.
The first two videos you showed are clearly not Judo, nor are they Judo players.
But you never responded to that, which leads me to believe you are more about spreading what ever your agenda is vs. reading.
Statically Soccer and track and field have the highest number of injuries in sports in the US.
Are their injuries in Judo sure, but there are far far more in American football that are worse.
Out of any martial arts- I would say the numbers for injuries would be highest , in things like wrestling- where the volume of competition is much higher then in Judo.
Ill Echo Jelly Roll in this ,any refutable school I have ever trained, attented, or taught in spends quite a bit of time acclimatizing beginners to Ukemi break-falls.
In fact far more so then in most other arts save for Akido.
See Falling is what we do. So we spend an inordinate time on that.
You mention that you have trained “some” judo, I would guess not that much cause most of your
points either not that accurate or are based on your observations gathering facts.
What ever your experience are, they are certainly not that well informed about Judo.
Your point about USAJ and Belt Promotion is not entirely true, if at all.
and represents a very small minority. Its a guideline. That is all.
The promotion via competition is used in small minority of schools in the US.
Very few clubs award promotions via competition, it takes a long time to
become Shodan, its very rarely accelerated. It also reflects a very small minority globally
Judo is not that popular in the States as to the rest of the world.
ZAck you might as well have told the OP never to leave the house, or train with weights or ANY martial art.
OP.
Go play some judo its fun as hell.
Go watch a class in your area, see if its good.
kmc
[/quote]
x2.
I have been doing judo 1-2 times a week for a year now. When I first started, I had a minor tear in my knee that put me out for four weeks, but nothing since. This was due mainly to the guy I was doing randoori with was a complete cockspank and did not go ‘light’ with a beginner. He was one of those people that tries to hurt you and couldn’t care less. Any time I go with anyone who is just starting I go as light as possible and help them (if I hammered them, what have I gained? I am no better and they may not come back).
Long story short, like in any sport/martial art, you have good and bad people, although I would like to think mainly good. Youu will soon find those who are not friendly toward beginners and are insecure and need to prove something to someone who is just starting, but you may find this in any martial art. Just avoid these people until you get a lot better and then go back and do the same to them when you are good.
I second the part about training with the black belts, as they have much more control/thechnique (obviously) so there is nearno chance you will get hurt.
I am actually in Japan at the moment training and trying to improve, even though I had to start from scratch Go along to some different classes and watch to see if it for you. Try different things/clubs (judo/BJJ) until you find one you like, because you need to enjoy it to keep going back.
Hope this helps.
Ciz
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
OK this is starting to be a thread about spreading questionable facts.
Statically Soccer and track and field have the highest number of injuries in sports in the US.
Are their injuries in Judo sure, but there are far far more in American football that are worse.
Out of any martial arts- I would say the numbers for injuries would be highest , in things like wrestling- where the volume of competition is much higher then in Judo.
You mention that you have trained “some” judo, I would guess not that much cause most of your points either not that accurate or are based on your observations gathering facts.
What ever your experience are, they are certainly not that well informed about Judo.
Your point about USAJ and Belt Promotion is not entirely true, if at all.
and represents a very small minority. Its a guideline. That is all.
The promotion via competition is used in small minority of schools in the US.
Very few clubs award promotions via competition, it takes a long time to
become Shodan, its very rarely accelerated. It also reflects a very small minority globally
Judo is not that popular in the States as to the rest of the world.
[/quote]
Well I have to give you kudo’s for mischaracterizing what I wrote, putting words in my mouth and twisting the facts.
First of all my main comment was find a school with low amounts of ego. Re #6 - My comments about the importance of competition for promotion is straight from the USJA website : www.usja-judo.org/Docs/nat_rank_sys.pdf . Their words and not mine. Studies show that in the USA most sports injuries occur in competition and not training, regardless of sport ( An epidemiologic comparison of high school sports injuries sustained in practice and competition - PubMed ) and when they occur in competition they tend to be head/face and neck injuries. This study was done on various sports and had nothing specific to Judo, but did include wrestling
no shit there are more numbers of injuries in football since more kids play football. That still does not change the fact that competition brings out ego, ego brings out injuries. USJA is big on competition. I asked him to look for a school low in ego. So what?
#5) I freely admitted my experience is limited to rolling with many judo friends and that most of my grappling experience comes from many years (decades really) in Japanese Jujutsu (although I also had a state title in AAU wrestling). So what is your point? I am still familiar with Judo, how it is conducted (or also as I was free to point, perhaps WAS conducted since I have been out of circulation for a few years) - and that competition brings out more injuries - and USJA and Judo in general, being highly competitive tends to have more injuries - which was the OP’s main concern.
If someones main theme of a post was the risk of injury in weight lifting or the risk of side effects using steroids I would have addressed that - and would not pretend like their is no risk nor any side effects. I answered his question honestly.
Re : #2 - There are no good comparisons of judo to other sports in the USA - like you claim knowledge of (coughmake upcough) - and if you have a good study on such please post it. Studies comparing martial arts IN THE UNITED STATES show a much higher proportion of neck injuries in judo than in other martial arts like Tae Kwon Do and Karate ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez ) . So what do you want me to do - pretend like there are none? Of course I am not recommending he not participate - I mention myself that I did many years of Jujutsu - I just recommended finding a school low in ego - and all of you make it out like some crime for me to say that - obviously I have touched a raw nerve in your judo ego.
Ok to make the judoka happier even though studies show competition brings out more injuries, and even though Judo groups like USJA emphasize competition HIGHLY in their own words, and even though studies show Judo has a much higher incidence of neck injuries compared to other martial arts (just like the OP knows a priori and writes in his initial post) , I say study judo it is completely impossible to get hurt.
Re #1 - the only questionable “facts” are yours
[quote]borrek wrote:
I did get hurt in judo, but it was my own fault and by bad technique during a throw in a tournament. I’ve taken a thousand falls (with thousands more to come) and have never once been injured by a fall.
The thing about judo is that your training partners are all there to make sure you’re safe. If injury happens, it is 90% of the time in shiai (tournament fighting) where you are throwing without much concern for your partner.
.[/quote]
Borrek proves my point - his one injury occured in a competition. In practice he was never hurt. If an injury does happen it happens 90% of the time in tournament/sport competition.
USJA and other judo groups push push push push competition.
If the OP wants to learn for self defense and is not interested in sport - than I am sticking by my initial assertion : find a school low in ego.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
OK this is starting to be a thread about spreading questionable facts.
The first two videos you showed are clearly not Judo, nor are they Judo players.
But you never responded to that, which leads me to believe you are more about spreading what ever your agenda is vs. reading.
Statically Soccer and track and field have the highest number of injuries in sports in the US.
Are their injuries in Judo sure, but there are far far more in American football that are worse.
[/quote]
I really have no agenda.
You falsely state that I “never responded” about my mistake in posting videos of grapplers that were not judoka. Again this is just some BS of yours. In my post in this thread that is timed at 9:31 I openly admit the videos were not Judo and that I made a mistake, and then post some videos that I know to be Judo. Including some videos of the creator of Kodokan style Judo, Jigoro Kano, demonstrating Judo kata - a very egoless way of practicing. Out of curiosity - do you know the original Judo kata?
I can find no studies comparing Judo injuries to those of soccer (or football) in the USA. There is this study which shows the injury rate in Finland of soccer to be 89% and of judo to be 117% http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/311/7018/1465 What this means is more people get injured in Judo than soccer.
The Finland results study says " Karate and judo had the highest injury rates, followed by ice hockey, soccer, and basketball. Volleyball had the lowest injury rate (table 1)." But there are things in this study that seem to indicate the results differ from statistics in the USA.
Again the only questionable facts and mistatements being spread are yours
To completely establish the point of how focused Kodokan Judo is on competition - the Kodokan in Japan states http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/shoudan.html
“This table of contest result and training years shows the relation between the appraisement computed out of efficiency and skill and minimum training period required for the dan promotion.Those below the 4th dan who have been found outstandingly excellent in Red VS White Tournament held in spring and autumn every year at Kodokan, and those who have attained especially excellent result in All Japan Judo Championships or in World Judo Championships may be promoted regardless of these standards with the exception of minimum age candidates for 1st dan. The marks mentioned here are limited to those that have been officially recognized by Kodokan at the tournament organized or sponsored by Kodokan, All Japan Judo Federation, local judo federation or judo structure (body) authorized to make dan recommendation. In case of promotion to the 5th dan or above, the marks are limited to those that have been officially recognized at the tournament organized or sponsored by Kodokan or judo federations which are ranked the same or higher than prefectural judo federation.”
I am sorry, contest points are clearly the way promotion is made in Kodokan judo - in Japan and in the USA. There are those teaching various grappling (no relation to Kano style Judo) who say they teach “Judo” but it is not Kano style Judo and may in fact be a conglomeration of jujutsu and pro-wrestling. There is an ancient system called Judo that predates Kano’s Judo - but it is very rare. Authentic Kodokan (Kano style) Judo relies heavily on competition to determine rank promotions.
Being a former Jujutsu-ka myself, I don’t care of something is authentically Judo or not. And I still recommend the OP look for a school low in ego.
Judo’s awesome. Just do it. Great standup, solid groundwork. And it’s fun. Go to a few classes, check it out.
Frankly, I’d be worried about more long term damage from getting punched/kicked in the head than from falling in Judo. Once you learn and practice ukemi (falling techniques), you’ll be fine. People usually get hurt when they act like asses and try to resist throws too much(twisting, posting an arm, etc.). I can show you dozens of videos of guys getting severely injured in football, but that doesn’t make it “unsafe”. There are some unavoidable risks when you have to humans fully going at it in a fully-resistant manner, as in any combat sport (boxing, wrestling) or contact sports (football).
Judo dojos typically are some of the most egoless places you’ll find. Like others have said, work with the blackbelts if you can. Avoid whitebelts if at all possible.
[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:
borrek wrote:
I did get hurt in judo, but it was my own fault and by bad technique during a throw in a tournament. I’ve taken a thousand falls (with thousands more to come) and have never once been injured by a fall.
The thing about judo is that your training partners are all there to make sure you’re safe. If injury happens, it is 90% of the time in shiai (tournament fighting) where you are throwing without much concern for your partner.
.
Borrek proves my point - his one injury occured in a competition. In practice he was never hurt. If an injury does happen it happens 90% of the time in tournament/sport competition.
USJA and other judo groups push push push push competition.
If the OP wants to learn for self defense and is not interested in sport - than I am sticking by my initial assertion : find a school low in ego.
[/quote]
How do you expect someone to learn if they never test themselves in competition? I would much rather get injured in the safe environment of a judo competition than be so deluded about my own abilities that I suffer more severe injuries in a self defense situation. Judo is tough. So is wrestling. So is boxing. You don’t learn to defend yourself by punching air or throwing compliant hippies by their wrist.
[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:
To completely establish the point of how focused Kodokan Judo is on competition - the Kodokan in Japan states http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/shoudan.html
“This table of contest result and training years shows the relation between the appraisement computed out of efficiency and skill and minimum training period required for the dan promotion.Those below the 4th dan who have been found outstandingly excellent in Red VS White Tournament held in spring and autumn every year at Kodokan, and those who have attained especially excellent result in All Japan Judo Championships or in World Judo Championships may be promoted regardless of these standards with the exception of minimum age candidates for 1st dan. The marks mentioned here are limited to those that have been officially recognized by Kodokan at the tournament organized or sponsored by Kodokan, All Japan Judo Federation, local judo federation or judo structure (body) authorized to make dan recommendation. In case of promotion to the 5th dan or above, the marks are limited to those that have been officially recognized at the tournament organized or sponsored by Kodokan or judo federations which are ranked the same or higher than prefectural judo federation.”
I am sorry, contest points are clearly the way promotion is made in Kodokan judo - in Japan and in the USA. There are those teaching various grappling (no relation to Kano style Judo) who say they teach “Judo” but it is not Kano style Judo and may in fact be a conglomeration of jujutsu and pro-wrestling. There is an ancient system called Judo that predates Kano’s Judo - but it is very rare. Authentic Kodokan (Kano style) Judo relies heavily on competition to determine rank promotions.
Being a former Jujutsu-ka myself, I don’t care of something is authentically Judo or not. And I still recommend the OP look for a school low in ego.[/quote]
I am training at the Kodokan at the moment. I know you do not need to enter any competitions within your first few months of starting. You are never forced to do any competitions, although to answer you’re point more directly to get your black belt I don’t know if you need to enter comps or not. It would be interesting to find out.
I don’t see what the big deal about comps are anyway, if they are small and quite local usually you will only have 2-3 fights and if you are starting out (<6 months) they will probably be over pretty quickly.
It’s just like a boxer doing 10 rounds of hard sparring, not that much different to an amatuer fight. Long story short, if the original poster doesn’t want to enter any comps, don’t. They are far from the be all and end all. I know people who are fantastic players and never entered comp because hey get too nervous. Nothing wrong with that, they are still fantastic players.
Ciz