Jordan 2, ISIS/L 1

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1082

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-turns-chemical-weapons-loses-120000404.html

interesting.

Gives a short history of Saddam’s chemical weapons, the Iraq invasion, and how al-qaeda and now ISIS are trying to get their hands on these supposed imaginary weapons.[/quote]

I don’t understand. Bistro has assured me these chemicals do NOT exist. And he knows stuff cuz he’s in school and really bright and so are his professors.

I’m so frustrated and confused. Bistro? Smh? Help. Please.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/

[/quote]

Been there many times, as you well know. Never have I claimed chem weapons not to have existed – never. Unfortunately for your position, the same cannot be said for a fuckton of other and much more important elements of the case for war.

1085

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-turns-chemical-weapons-loses-120000404.html

interesting.

Gives a short history of Saddam’s chemical weapons, the Iraq invasion, and how al-qaeda and now ISIS are trying to get their hands on these supposed imaginary weapons.[/quote]

You mean they aren’t satisfied with all of the weapons and armoured vehicles we gave them, or left in the desert for them to use when we decided we didn’t wanna play in the sandbox anymore?

What ingrates.

1087

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Are you sure, smh, if I went to huntin’ with Uncle Google I wouldn’t find some posts of yours claiming WMD’s were never found or if found they were just inert, old stuff sitting around in Abdullah’s garage that didn’t amount to nuthin? [/quote]

If I ever said WMD, I meant what Bush meant when he said that Iraq WMD was his biggest regret. Obviously, he knew about the chemical weapons, and because I have read every word of every report on OIF, I know about them as well and in great detail.

1088

But you know that already, because we’ve fought Iraq out before, and I’ve made my case very, very clearly and specifically.

1089

But yes, there is a temptation to get lazy and refer to nuclear weapons as, broadly, WMD. As I said, even Bush used the shortcut to express his regret. I don’t know if I ever have – I dont think so, and I certainly shouldn’t have, because it opens exactly this kind of door – but if I did, I was using the term lazily, not misunderstanding the facts.

1090

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My other thought is, if the Armenians, the Kurds, and the various tribes of Bantu, Aboriginal Australians and American Indians had anything near the political clout and presence in the media that Jews have, we would never be allowed to forget their stories, either.[/quote]

True, but it wasn’t just the Jews I was talking about. The Europeans went to the “undeveloped” countries like Africa, Australia, Middle East, India, and made them into colonies. Germany, Japan and Italy were merely following suit. Italy went into Ethiopia, but the mistake the Germans made was trying to colonize parts of Europe itself while going after parts of the British Empire along with Japan. The colonization or quest for Lebensraum and extermination of local inhabitants, ie Poles, Russians, Czechs, ect, along with Jews, of course, made their crime seem the worst in history to date.
[/quote]

Sure, but Stalin and Mao killed many times more of their own people than Hitler killed Jews, Poles, Czechs, Catholics, Russians and Catholics combined, and yet if anyone wants a poster boy for genocide, good old Adolf is the one everyone thinks of. That, my friend, is a successful marketing campaign.

Incidentally, Lebensraum is just the German equivalent of “elbow room”, the unofficial slogan of Manifest Destiny, which is of course where he got the idea. Nobody thinks ill of Andrew Jackson or Alexander or… for that matter, your own namesake, but their policies weren’t all that different. Hitler had the benefit of technology, but the drawback of opponents with similar technology.[/quote]

A false moral equivalency. Manifest destiny entailed the opening up of the West to exploit natural resources; beaver, timber, gold, buffalo, wild longhorn etc. The motivations of wagon trainers in the old West was not the same as the Wehrmacht’s military conquest of Russia and the einsatzgruppen’s deliberate extermination of the civilian population.

1091

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-turns-chemical-weapons-loses-120000404.html

interesting.

Gives a short history of Saddam’s chemical weapons, the Iraq invasion, and how al-qaeda and now ISIS are trying to get their hands on these supposed imaginary weapons.[/quote]

I don’t understand. Bistro has assured me these chemicals do NOT exist. And he knows stuff cuz he’s in school and really bright and so are his professors.

I’m so frustrated and confused. Bistro? Smh? Help. Please.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/02/22/ISIS-Turns-Chemical-Weapons-It-Loses-Ground-Iraq[/quote]

You just cannon-balled into the cesspool of intellectual honesty that this thread has become. I responded with multiple posts in your “Iraq WMD Myth Myth” thread, which you hastily abandoned. I have consistently and explicitly argued that Iraq did not have an ACTIVE and ROBUST CBRN program. I have not contradicted this position once in the 1,394 posts I’ve made to date. You are incapable of having a civil and candid discussion. No, you aren’t playing tackle football. You’re sodomizing yourself with a cricket bat on the fifty yard line and declaring that you’ve scored a touchdown.

http://www.nytimes.com/...apons.html?_r=0

“The United States had gone to war declaring it must destroy an ACTIVE weapons of mass destruction program. Instead, American troops gradually found and ultimately suffered from the remnants of LONG-ABANDONED programs, built in CLOSE COLLABORATION with the West.” (Capitalization added for emphasis)
After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an active weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.
Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering old chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.

In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find."

The key words were always active and robust. Iraq was said to have a prolific CBRN program in numerous public speech acts leading up to the 2003 invasion. Did the US go to war to dismantle Iraq’s supposedly robust unconventional weapons programs, or did it do so to protect the endangered Mesopotamian fallow deer from the deleterious effects that antiquated chemical weapons were having on the Iraqi biosphere?

In conclusion, Iraq didn’t have active and robust CBRN programs, only long abandoned chemical weapon caches. The destruction of discovered decrepit stockpiles only cost the U.S. $2 trillion (which will amount to $6 trillion over the next several decades), 4,425 dead service members, and with 32,223 wounded in action. Oh, and arguably lost the war in Afghanistan. You know, the place where al-Qaida was antebellum.

You and your ilk’s position is old hat, and does not even begin to justify the costs of the war.

1093

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My other thought is, if the Armenians, the Kurds, and the various tribes of Bantu, Aboriginal Australians and American Indians had anything near the political clout and presence in the media that Jews have, we would never be allowed to forget their stories, either.[/quote]

True, but it wasn’t just the Jews I was talking about. The Europeans went to the “undeveloped” countries like Africa, Australia, Middle East, India, and made them into colonies. Germany, Japan and Italy were merely following suit. Italy went into Ethiopia, but the mistake the Germans made was trying to colonize parts of Europe itself while going after parts of the British Empire along with Japan. The colonization or quest for Lebensraum and extermination of local inhabitants, ie Poles, Russians, Czechs, ect, along with Jews, of course, made their crime seem the worst in history to date.
[/quote]

Sure, but Stalin and Mao killed many times more of their own people than Hitler killed Jews, Poles, Czechs, Catholics, Russians and Catholics combined, and yet if anyone wants a poster boy for genocide, good old Adolf is the one everyone thinks of. That, my friend, is a successful marketing campaign.

Incidentally, Lebensraum is just the German equivalent of “elbow room”, the unofficial slogan of Manifest Destiny, which is of course where he got the idea. Nobody thinks ill of Andrew Jackson or Alexander or… for that matter, your own namesake, but their policies weren’t all that different. Hitler had the benefit of technology, but the drawback of opponents with similar technology.[/quote]

A false moral equivalency. Manifest destiny entailed the opening up of the West to exploit natural resources; beaver, timber, gold, buffalo, wild longhorn etc. The motivations of wagon trainers in the old West was not the same as the Wehrmacht’s military conquest of Russia and the einsatzgruppen’s deliberate extermination of the civilian population.[/quote]

Move onto a piece of land in order to exploit its resources and obtain living space for your own people. Remove the people who are already there by whatever means are at your disposal.

The motivations have not changed from the days of antiquity.

All that has changed is the technology. It is easier to remove people with tanks, nerve gas and the railroad than it is with mounted raiding parties and armoured hoplites.

1094

[quote]pushharder wrote:
On another note since we all pretty much agree ISIS is the devil I thought I’d spin this tune: [/quote]

Oh, Jesus. Not fucking Stryper. I didn’t even like them when I was a Christian.

And I don’t think ISIS is the devil. That’s too simplistic.

They’d like to think they are the army of Suleiman the Magnificent: holy warriors fighting under the banner of the Caliph, but in actuality they are just a bunch of land pirates. Landlocked Barbary Coast scallywags. Hell, they even fly the black flag.

Which makes things simple.

Reinstate the letters of marque and reprisal. Allow any privateer who is able, to hunt these pirates wherever in the world they are, with whatever arms or army he can raise, and give him the authority, if he captures any person engaging in “piracy”, on land or sea, and flying the black flag of ISIS, to hang that person on the spot.

I know a few veterans who might be interested in such a venture, and a few people who might be interested in financing same.

1095

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My other thought is, if the Armenians, the Kurds, and the various tribes of Bantu, Aboriginal Australians and American Indians had anything near the political clout and presence in the media that Jews have, we would never be allowed to forget their stories, either.[/quote]

True, but it wasn’t just the Jews I was talking about. The Europeans went to the “undeveloped” countries like Africa, Australia, Middle East, India, and made them into colonies. Germany, Japan and Italy were merely following suit. Italy went into Ethiopia, but the mistake the Germans made was trying to colonize parts of Europe itself while going after parts of the British Empire along with Japan. The colonization or quest for Lebensraum and extermination of local inhabitants, ie Poles, Russians, Czechs, ect, along with Jews, of course, made their crime seem the worst in history to date.
[/quote]

Sure, but Stalin and Mao killed many times more of their own people than Hitler killed Jews, Poles, Czechs, Catholics, Russians and Catholics combined, and yet if anyone wants a poster boy for genocide, good old Adolf is the one everyone thinks of. That, my friend, is a successful marketing campaign.

Incidentally, Lebensraum is just the German equivalent of “elbow room”, the unofficial slogan of Manifest Destiny, which is of course where he got the idea. Nobody thinks ill of Andrew Jackson or Alexander or… for that matter, your own namesake, but their policies weren’t all that different. Hitler had the benefit of technology, but the drawback of opponents with similar technology.[/quote]

A false moral equivalency. Manifest destiny entailed the opening up of the West to exploit natural resources; beaver, timber, gold, buffalo, wild longhorn etc. The motivations of wagon trainers in the old West was not the same as the Wehrmacht’s military conquest of Russia and the einsatzgruppen’s deliberate extermination of the civilian population.[/quote]

Move onto a piece of land in order to exploit its resources and obtain living space for your own people. Remove the people who are already there by whatever means are at your disposal.

The motivations have not changed from the days of antiquity.

All that has changed is the technology. It is easier to remove people with tanks, nerve gas and the railroad than it is with mounted raiding parties and armoured hoplites.[/quote]

Okay Professor Chomsky whatever you say. The mountain men and wagon trainers were the moral equivalent of SS death squads.

1096

By the way, many mountain men weren’t after “land” they moved through the landscape seasonally trapping and often attempted to establish good relations with Indians where possible because their own skin depended on it. Just one example of a huge range of people in a huge range of different circumstances with a huge range of different motivations; good and bad. To make a moral equivalency between the early colonists with Nazi Einsatzgruppen tasked with systematically exterminating the population is an absurd leftist ploy.

1097

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

The only thing their education had in common was that it was way better than yours, or else you idiots would still be sending smoke signs and Nagasaki would still be standing. (well it is but they did went through a rough patch at some point).

[/quote]

Nagasaki? Wtf does that even mean? You’d be speaking German, …or worse…
[/quote]

Or worse… Portuguese.

Oh, wait.[/quote]

Lol!

1098

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

Hey beansie, ya scrotum prospector, if I invaded your home and deadlifted yo bed with you n yo hag sleeping there, would you shoot me?
[/quote]

Dude, seriously?

That’s it?

/no bueno[/quote]

I know, it ain’t good, unless you have your gun by your bedside table, loaded and ready to shoot, it ain’t gonna do much for you.

Dat how you roll, beans? Or do you have to go open the gun cabinet to protect yourself and your freedom?
[/quote]

Beansie tuck his tail and ran away from the computer it seems.
[/quote]

He said he’s on a business trip this week…

1099

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]knee-gro wrote:

The only thing their education had in common was that it was way better than yours, or else you idiots would still be sending smoke signs and Nagasaki would still be standing. (well it is but they did went through a rough patch at some point).

[/quote]

Nagasaki? Wtf does that even mean? You’d be speaking German, …or worse…
[/quote]

Or worse… Portuguese.

Oh, wait.[/quote]

LOL.
[/quote]

Lol wut?

You think white fellas coming to my country going around on a colonizing and murdering spree is funny?

Relatives of mine were murdered by those fascists in the 70s, dat make you laugh?
[/quote]

1100

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
By the way, many mountain men weren’t after “land” they moved through the landscape seasonally trapping and often attempted to establish good relations with Indians where possible because their own skin depended on it. Just one example of a huge range of people in a huge range of different circumstances with a huge range of different motivations; good and bad. To make a moral equivalency between the early colonists with Nazi Einsatzgruppen tasked with systematically exterminating the population is an absurd leftist ploy.[/quote]

I never mentioned American colonists or “wagon trainers”.

We are comparing governments here, and it was the policy of the United States government to remove “hostiles” from the frontier so the “wagon trainers” and “mountain men” could go in and do their thing. The United States employed people whose job it was to go after Indians and kill them. I ought to know about this, because my great- great-grandfather was one.

And although I don’t know about your personal history, I would hazard a guess that your great-great grandfather may have had somewhat less-than-friendly relationships with the aboriginal peoples over there where you’re from. Again, just a guess.

By the way, whatever happened to the Aborigines on Tasmania? Did they all move?