Joe Frazier

Training
41

[quote]facko wrote:

It’s not the same…you know boxing is different. And for the record I DO BOX. Btw…Gatti actually had very good boxing talent…and I’m sure you have watched his fights, so I don’t know how you can’t see that. When he wanted to box he could.
[/quote]

It is different in the way that all sports change with technology. There is more media exposure, better athletes, and way more money than the old days. But to me, there’s just as many good fights now as there was back then.

Pavlik fought Taylor for the championship, then came back and fought him at 168, for no belts, just because Taylor wanted to beat the man that beat him. That’s old school style on both their parts. Ward-Gatti I,II, III, Corrales-Castillo, Paquiao-Marquez… these were great wars.

Now, the only thing where I think you’re right in that boxing was better back then was because of the 15 rounds. That truly, truly seperated the wheat from the chaff, if you know what I mean. Unfortunately, it severely hurts guys. I do, however, wish they’d bring it back.

Also remember, you’re talking about three great fighters from that decade, maybe four. How many other shitty fighters were there that no one mentioned? How many bad fights that people forgot about? How many Sonny Listons took fuckin dives when they fought Ali?

No sport is perfect, especially boxing. But there is phenomenal talent out there, and aside from Floyd ducking Cotto, about every fight I’ve wanted to see happen, has happened.

And Gatti… I love’em, but he’s a brawler. Sure, he could box when Buddy McGirt tried like hell to make him. But you can’t take that brawler out of a guy. I love him for it, but brawlers are rarely the most talented fighters. Arturo had lots of power for his size, but his speed wasn’t there, and he often looked like a punching bag. He was a better “boxer” per se, than Micky Ward- but compare him to a Sugar Shane Mosley or a Floyd and it’s no real contest.

[quote]
Mayweather beat the shit out of him after a career of wars…he couldn’t even make 140 anymore. That’s not to say he wouldn’t beat Gatti in prime…he probably would. I hate to break it to you though…Mayweathers boxing skills are much overhyped…he isn’t the best thing since sliced bread. Now flame away.[/quote]

No flaming. I just disagree. I agree Gatti was shot, but Floyd would’ve beat him in his prime anyway.

I think Mayweather is the best technical boxer I’ve ever watched anywhere. I’ve never seen any other fighter land three lead rights in a row on a guy, or execute the Philly shell so perfectly. I’ve never seen someone get hit so little in his career, and with the exception of ONE time in the Castillo fights, never even have been in trouble to the point where you think he might lose.

He fights with his brain as much as his fists- he adapted to my boy Ricky Hatton, and brought out that check hook perfectly. He mauled Gatti, and destroyed my boy Corrales, and made Oscar look like a chump.

I gained a lot, and I mean ALOT, of respect for him after that Hatton fight. I always said Pretty Boy wouldn’t brawl, but then he brawled with the best swarmer out there, and beat him handily in the pocket and at a distance.

And I’m sorry to say that if he did fight Cotto, he maul him too. Until Father Time takes some of that speed and reflexes away, he’s unbeatable. Maybe if he fights someone who fights exactly as he does, he would lose… he is not impervious to a fighter with a good jab… DLH showed that during their fight in the middle rounds, but stupidly stopped using it. However, if he got a true boxer to fight with him, he would have a harder time… probably why DLH came the closest since Castillo to turning a decision on him (even though I think the judges were being graceful by splitting the decision- my eyes it was all Mayweather.)

42

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Mayweather said De LaHoya was nothing but a bitch and he was going to kick his ass. Then what does Mayweather do? He spends twelve rounds back pedaling away from “a bitch” who was going to get his “ass kicked”. While De LaHoya spent twelve rounds taking the fight to Mayweather like a man. Mayweather did not deserve to win that fight.

I agree, Mayweather makes me sick.[/quote]

I disagree.

He’s a counterpuncher. That’s what he does. Would you stand around and get hit if you didn’t have to? C’mon Sifu, I know you better than that.

He does the same thing in every fight. He dodges and ducks and rolls for the first seven rounds, and then in the last rounds he comes out and starts landing clean, hard shots that seriously hurt people.

He landed a couple of lead rights on DLH that would have put anyone else down, and he began to win very convincingly in those last rounds.

Not only that, but his defense is so good that DLH landed VERY few clean shots. All those body shots that looked so pretty? They all hit elbows. Those big swings he took at Floyd in the corner were grazing shots… for once, Manny Steward had it right in the commentating… DLH never hurt him once.

43

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Tyson might have had more versatility than Frazier but Tyson didn’t have the mental toughness to endure adversity like those old fighters. Tyson had an easier life.
[/quote]

Although I agree that Tyson didn’t have the mental composition as Frazier, I don’t think it’s because he had an easier life. Tyson had a pretty fucked up life as I recall.

Of course. Some fighters can recover from that and some can’t. But you can’t blame people for being intimidated by him, or him for using that as a weapon.

Hell, I think people are still very intimidated by him. His name alone has the connotation of, like Lamotta, a raging bull.

Absolutely.

44

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Mayweather said De LaHoya was nothing but a bitch and he was going to kick his ass. Then what does Mayweather do? He spends twelve rounds back pedaling away from “a bitch” who was going to get his “ass kicked”. While De LaHoya spent twelve rounds taking the fight to Mayweather like a man. Mayweather did not deserve to win that fight.

I agree, Mayweather makes me sick.

I disagree.

He’s a counterpuncher. That’s what he does. Would you stand around and get hit if you didn’t have to? C’mon Sifu, I know you better than that.

He does the same thing in every fight. He dodges and ducks and rolls for the first seven rounds, and then in the last rounds he comes out and starts landing clean, hard shots that seriously hurt people.

He landed a couple of lead rights on DLH that would have put anyone else down, and he began to win very convincingly in those last rounds.

Not only that, but his defense is so good that DLH landed VERY few clean shots. All those body shots that looked so pretty? They all hit elbows. Those big swings he took at Floyd in the corner were grazing shots… for once, Manny Steward had it right in the commentating… DLH never hurt him once.[/quote]

Totally agree.

45

With all the talk about boxers nowadays not being as good as they were in the 60s or 70s or whenever. Just look at the guys who have fought from the 90s. James Toney, Hopkins, Roy Jones, Barrera, Morales, DLH, Mosely, Mayweather, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Pacquiao, Pavlik, and probably alot more I can’t think of off the top of my head. Like these guys couldn’t compete with anybody in any other era.

46

[quote]otoko wrote:
With all the talk about boxers nowadays not being as good as they were in the 60s or 70s or whenever. Just look at the guys who have fought from the 90s. James Toney, Hopkins, Roy Jones, Barrera, Morales, DLH, Mosely, Mayweather, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Pacquiao, Pavlik, and probably alot more I can’t think of off the top of my head. Like these guys couldn’t compete with anybody in any other era.[/quote]

I forgot about Barrera. One of the best body punchers of the generation. Love that motherfucker.

BHop could fight anyone, also.

I truly agree.

47

Here’s something interesting, George Foreman’s top ten HW ranking in history:

1 Joe Louis
2 Rocky Marciano
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Mike Tyson
5 JL Sullivan
6 Jack Dempsey
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Larry Holmes
10 Gene Tunney

This is a few years old.

48

Jesus, I want to defend Tyson.

He had a shitty upbringing: Bullied, fell into rough crowds, lived in brownsville, and was never wanted. He did not have it easy.

When he got to Cus Damato, he found someone who actually cared about him. Cus was everything to him.

With Cus and Kevin Rooney: Head movement, footwork, combinations, body shots, and slipping. He did this and more before he ended fights with the KO.

Death of Cus and Kevin Rooney’s replacement(Don King!!!): Just a headhunter. He stopped doing the things he used to do. Changed his mentality and his life got worse from then on.

If he had kept Rooney and others like him who cared, Tyson’s career would have flourished.

49

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
Jesus, I want to defend Tyson.

He had a shitty upbringing: Bullied, fell into rough crowds, lived in brownsville, and was never wanted. He did not have it easy.

When he got to Cus Damato, he found someone who actually cared about him. Cus was everything to him.

With Cus and Kevin Rooney: Head movement, footwork, combinations, body shots, and slipping. He did this and more before he ended fights with the KO.

Death of Cus and Kevin Rooney’s replacement(Don King!!!): Just a headhunter. He stopped doing the things he used to do. Changed his mentality and his life got worse from then on.

If he had kept Rooney and others like him who cared, Tyson’s career would have flourished.[/quote]

Exactly. If Tyson had never let Don King get in his ear, and then control his every move, we would be talking about the most dominant HW of all time. Instead we’re talking about the waste of talent that could’ve been.

50

[quote]otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:

I think Tyson was done before the Douglas fight. After he lost Rooney he had little defense and didn’t put his punches together. Was Tyson frustrated because he was mentally weak or was he frustrated because he could’t do what he used to do and what he had left wasn’t going to win fights? [/quote]

ESPN showed the Douglas, Tyson fight last night. You’re right Tyson was done. The First round the commentators said was even. The second round they called Douglas’.

[quote]

Guys who don’t train and do what they are supposed to do are going to get frustrated in a fight. Whatever you want to say Tyson, he went out on his shield. He knew he was gonna get a beating and went out there and took it.

A true warrior does not mean he won’t get destroyed by an epic beating. Those two things are not mutual. Fernando Vargas was a warrior but he was never the same after Trinidad. [/quote]

Tyson did not take an epic beating, he just got knocked out for a change. Tyson was not made of the same metal as Ali, Frazier, Foreman. Those three all took beat downs worse than Tyson, but came back and did incredible things.

Tyson still had the chance to pull his shit together after Douglas but never really did. Tyson got rid of the trainers and managers who got him where he was and made him rich. Tyson’s story is one of being a major fuck up.

[quote]
I think guys these days(not all of them) have too many fights before stepping up in comp. BUt these guys have great coaches and they feel that is the best way. A horrific beating at an early stage of ones career is avoided.

Guys who are Olympic medalists are usually on the fast track. Lots of amateur experience is important. Ali had that. Still I don’t know Ali’s first ten opponents. He had Archie Moore somewhere in his first 15.

Up and coming guys getting old former champs is like a right of passage in boxing. So even back in the day guys were built up. Getting that experience and confidence is extremely important. [/quote]

Putting a final humiliating end to a former champ who should have given up long ago is nothing to brag about. When Rocky Marciano near the end of his career had to end Joe Louis’ career, it was not something he felt good about. But Louis needed the money.

What makes an era great is the competition. That early seventies era saw three of the top ten best ever in prime. The old man of the group who should have been getting over the hill was Ali. Noone was saying Ali was over the hill when he beat Foreman. In 1980 when Holmes beat Ali it was a different story.

1997 saw what was one of the greatest heavyweight matches ever. But the fighters weren’t that well known so noone talks about it. If you ever get a chance to watch Dave Tua versus Ike Ibeabuchi you will not be disappointed. Two thirds of the way through it exceeded Ali Frazier’s thirlla in Manila for the most punches thrown in a heavyweight fight. The final total was 1730 punches. The combination punching of both fighters was incredible. Here is a highlight reel of it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5979464158019495702&q=dave+tua+++ike&ei=M1ddSJGeFp2mrALPpvD1Bw&hl=en

51

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Mayweather said De LaHoya was nothing but a bitch and he was going to kick his ass. Then what does Mayweather do? He spends twelve rounds back pedaling away from “a bitch” who was going to get his “ass kicked”. While De LaHoya spent twelve rounds taking the fight to Mayweather like a man. Mayweather did not deserve to win that fight.

I agree, Mayweather makes me sick.

I disagree.

He’s a counterpuncher. That’s what he does. Would you stand around and get hit if you didn’t have to? C’mon Sifu, I know you better than that.

He does the same thing in every fight. He dodges and ducks and rolls for the first seven rounds, and then in the last rounds he comes out and starts landing clean, hard shots that seriously hurt people.

He landed a couple of lead rights on DLH that would have put anyone else down, and he began to win very convincingly in those last rounds.

Not only that, but his defense is so good that DLH landed VERY few clean shots. All those body shots that looked so pretty? They all hit elbows. Those big swings he took at Floyd in the corner were grazing shots… for once, Manny Steward had it right in the commentating… DLH never hurt him once.[/quote]

Mayweathers defensive skills were impeccable, he did an awesome job on defense. However PBM said that DLH was a bitch and he was going to kick his ass like DLH was a bitch.

When I hear kick his ass like he’s a bitch, I think, over whelming offense. I think Foreman v Frazier or Tyson v Spinks or Hagler v Hearns. I think won by KTFO! Not twelve rounds of defense being decided by the judges scorecards.

52

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson might have had more versatility than Frazier but Tyson didn’t have the mental toughness to endure adversity like those old fighters. Tyson had an easier life.

Although I agree that Tyson didn’t have the mental composition as Frazier, I don’t think it’s because he had an easier life. Tyson had a pretty fucked up life as I recall. [/quote]

Tyson did have a fucked up life in his early childhood. But he chose to make his life harder for himself than it needed to be. When Tyson ended up with Cus d’Amato at age 14 his life got a lot easier.

[quote]
One of Tysons most important weapons is that guys were afraid of him. Then when he finally met that one guy who wasn’t going to let intimidation defeat him Tyson was finished as a fighter. After Buster Gouglas won Tyson lost his aura of invincibility.

Of course. Some fighters can recover from that and some can’t. But you can’t blame people for being intimidated by him, or him for using that as a weapon.

Hell, I think people are still very intimidated by him. His name alone has the connotation of, like Lamotta, a raging bull. [/quote]

Tyson was a scary MoFo and I don’t blame him for using that to it’s fullest advantage, which he did. The fear and intimidation factor put a lot of guys off their game. But once Buster Douglas stripped that away from him Tyson was never the same.

Tyson’s scaryness was like the big head in Wizard of OZ. Once we got a look behind the big head and saw the little man behind it it was all over.

[quote]
A true warrior will take an ass kicking and not be destroyed by it. Ali lost to Frazier but still came back and beat him twice after that. Ali also beat Foreman, in one of the greatest fights ever.

Frazier got an unholy beatdown from Foreman. But he came back and fought two wars with Ali after that which were legendary. And he faced Foreman again.

Foreman lost his aura of scary invincibility to Ali, then over a decade later came back regained his title and became the oldest champ ever.

Absolutely.[/quote]

53

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
Jesus, I want to defend Tyson.

He had a shitty upbringing: Bullied, fell into rough crowds, lived in brownsville, and was never wanted. He did not have it easy. [/quote]

If you look at these brief entry’s from wikipedia you will see that Frazier and Ali had a more wholesome family life growing up than Tyson. Foreman was like Tyson but decided to turn his life around.

All of these guys grew up poor. Ali Frazier Foreman were born and raised in the South during the era of Jim Crow. Those guys had to endure bullying and indignities like Tyson never had to go through.

Look at Frazier, what role models of success could a southern sharecroppers son have had? He didn’t bring hardship upon himself by choice, it was forced upon him by the government and society.

Joseph William Frazier was born and raised in Beaufort, South Carolina to poor sharecroppers and didn’t leave for Philadelphia until 1961. He notes in his autobiography that he grew up poor but happy.

Same with Ali father a sign painter and his mother a domestic, with everyone including the government telling him don’t aspire to anything more.

Ali was born in Louisville, Kentucky. He was named after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay.

Muhammad Ali was born on January 17, 1942. His father, Clay Sr., painted billboards and signs, and his mother, Odessa Grady Clay, was a household domestic.

George Foreman was born in Marshall, Texas. Although raised by J.D. Foreman, whom his mother married when George was a small child, his biological father was Leroy Moorehead. During his youth, he was often in trouble with the law. In his teen years, George made a name for himself as a street brawler, thief, and mugger.[4] He and his friends would sometimes participate in gang fights, and in time George became one of the most feared street fighters in his neighborhood. He and his friends would sometimes get drunk and were constantly on the run from the police. A turning point came for George when, while running from police one night, he hid under a house and used the contents of a broken sewage pipe to cover his scent from police dogs.[4] He vowed that night to make a better life for himself.

Those three came from poor backgrounds, but when they got the little that they did get they had an attitude of gratitude and they didn’t end up broke afterwards. They gave of themselves to others.

Tyson was the first Hundred Million Dollar athlete. But it came too easy, so he blew all of it.

[quote]
When he got to Cus Damato, he found someone who actually cared about him. Cus was everything to him.

With Cus and Kevin Rooney: Head movement, footwork, combinations, body shots, and slipping. He did this and more before he ended fights with the KO.

Death of Cus and Kevin Rooney’s replacement(Don King!!!): Just a headhunter. He stopped doing the things he used to do. Changed his mentality and his life got worse from then on. [/quote]

Kevin Rooney was Tysons trainer. Tysons early management was handled by Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton. They put together single fight deals for Tyson that brought in 10-20 million each. Jacobs died and left Cayton. King use a racial angle on Tyson and got him to drop Cayton who was Jewish. King got Tyson a deal for 12 fights in 3 years for a total payout to Tyson of 12 million.

[quote]
If he had kept Rooney and others like him who cared, Tyson’s career would have flourished.[/quote]

True that. The rise and Fall of Mike Tyson should be a required course of study for all up and coming fighters.

55

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
otoko wrote:
Here’s something interesting, George Foreman’s top ten HW ranking in history:

1 Joe Louis
2 Rocky Marciano
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Mike Tyson
5 JL Sullivan
6 Jack Dempsey
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Evander Holyfield
9 Larry Holmes
10 Gene Tunney

This is a few years old.

Interesting list, but George Didn’t rank himself in the top 10.

I’d never put Lennox Lewis on that list. And where is Joe Frazier? He’d demolish JL Sullivan. And why is Evander Holyfield on there? And Larry Holmes ahead of the ring master Gene Tunney?

Okay…I just don’t agree with many of Foremans picks…

[/quote]

I don’t think there is any list that would satisfy everybody.

Though I don’t think because Frazier beats Sullivan that is good criteria for making a list. Lennox Lewis demolishes Marciano for instance. Probably Frazier as well. Would have been a bad match-up for Ali as well. Too big, too strong, disciplined and his reach was 84 inches. Might have been boring if Lewis decided just to pump his jab from the outside for the duration of the fight. I know probably there are some who vehemently disagree.

56

[quote]Sifu wrote:
cared, Tyson’s career would have flourished.

True that. The rise and Fall of Mike Tyson should be a required course of study for all up and coming fighters.

[/quote]

Haha. Now that’s an idea right there.

57

Who was the best at chicken catching?

J/K. This thread is very interesting, it has rekindled my intrest in boxing.

58

When under Cus, Tyson was no angel. They covered a lot of his shit. Teddy Atlas pulled a gun on Tyson because Tyson acted inappropriately, to be polite, towards Teddy’s niece. That’s the reason Teddy stopped being a trainer under Cus.

Cus was an old man who wanted one more champ before he died and this made him cover many of Tyson’s fuck ups.

That being said, Tyson was a thing of beauty to behold when he was a kid moving up the ranks. Always mentally weak though. Teddy time and time again had to talk Tyson off the ledge because he was crying before many of his amateur fights and wanted to run.

Sifu, well said to everything you have written.

59

[quote]5DeadlyVenoms wrote:
When under Cus, Tyson was no angel. They covered a lot of his shit. Teddy Atlas pulled a gun on Tyson because Tyson acted inappropriately, to be polite, towards Teddy’s niece. That’s the reason Teddy stopped being a trainer under Cus.

Cus was an old man who wanted one more champ before he died and this made him cover many of Tyson’s fuck ups.

That being said, Tyson was a thing of beauty to behold when he was a kid moving up the ranks. Always mentally weak though. Teddy time and time again had to talk Tyson off the ledge because he was crying before many of his amateur fights and wanted to run.

Sifu, well said to everything you have written.[/quote]

Tyson didn’t have a real friend or loved one till he met Cus. He was still a young man. Only really he’s considered a MAN is cause of his size and training. He was a kid and kids make mistakes. And when he got older, Robin Givens and Don King dug into him. He lost all his real friends at 22. From then on he was surrounded by snakes.

60

He made the choices to surround himself with snakes. He is still making the same choices. Kids do make mistakes but attempted molestation of a girl isn’t something to be chalked up to a boy being a boy.