Look, I don’t want to start an argument with
you here. But you seem to think that training
is some magic bullet cure-all, and you also
seem to think that just because someone trains
that gives them super human immunity to the
ills of insulin resistance. All I can say is
you are wrong. And I am willing to bet that
even if you tested trained individuals,
many of them will still be very adversely
effected insulin sensitivity from caffeine.
Also note that eating large quantities of food
(which bodybuilders are known to do) has a
very bad effect on insulin sensitivity all by
itself - not even considering caffeine. I
have been training (weights and cardio)
consistently for 13 years. I had used caffeine
chronically for 5 years. For the past ten
years I have consumed a super-clean diet. I
never eat junk food of any kind.
(Seriously - I’m anal about that.) I never had
a problem with insulin sensitivity until I
started drinking a lot of coffee. By the end
of that five year period I had developed
borderline type 2 diabetes. Stopping the
caffeine consumption made a major difference
in correcting this problem. I think a lot of
this has to do with how genetically susceptable someone is to developing insulin resistance. Be thankful you apparently aren’t very susceptable to it. (But how long have you been drinking coffee? It might take a while to
catch up to you and bite you in the ass.) But
just because you aren’t susceptable to this
problem, DON’T ASSUME IT’S A NON-ISSUE FOR
EVERYONE ELSE. Because IT IS of HUGE IMPORTANCE for some of us. OK? Seriously,
how long have you been consuming caffeine
chronically - that might be of interest.
Are you all actually reading these studies or just seeing the word “caffeine” and running from there? If the study that Pete posted is a representation, though Caffeine does increase epinephrine release, so does damn near everything else that a bodybuilder does including lifting weights. That doesn’t make me want to stop lifting weights. I have yet to see anything that is making me get rid of any thermogenic considering my lifestyle up to this point has kept me in good shape and looking good. Does everything on this forum get blown out of proportion like this?
Free Ex, I am not arguing with you at all. However, I am wondering why you believe that coffee alone was the cause of your diabetes. I don’t drink coffee. As I stated, I regularly take a thermogenic and have for years before training. There is an increase in diabetes and “Syndrome X” nation wide and it isn’t because of coffee. The causes are mainly from the disregard for the types of carbohydrates that people consume and their inactive lifestyles, not Maxwell House. If you are diabetic, I can see the concern and that makes perfect sense. As I wrote in the other post, I do not see the need for concern from those who are not diabetic and who have a good understand of training and nutrition. If that person has no understanding of either, fixing that should be first on the list, not discontinuation of any and all caffeine in their diet.
I drink about 2 cups of Starbuck’s a day, so I looked up how much caffeine is in their coffee:
Average caffeine content in Starbuck's coffee: 200mg/8oz
Average caffeine content in Starbuck's decaf: 6mg/8oz
Just wanted to post this in case anyone was interested.
BTW, here is yet another reason to avoid
caffeine: It may cause hardening of the
arteries.
www.telmedpak.com/homenews.asp?a=3555
http://www.heartlink.org.uk/ headlines2001/september2001/ 10th-sept-2001/10thseptember2001story2.html
http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/ blood/articleView.asp?MessageID=1360
The studies cited in the articles above have been duplicated in other studies. There were some studies on Medline covering this, but I can't find them at the moment. If you do search for "caffeine" + "arteries" on Medline on on the web, I'm sure you'll find a bunch more references.
I don’t believe caffeine was the sole cause
of my problem, but I do beleive it was a major
component of it. Other factors include, high
stress and inadequate sleep. I was not
diabetic before beginning coffee consumption.
The reason I believe coffee was a major factor
was becasue there were no other variables that
changed in that time period. As I stated, my
diet, and exercise have been excellent for
many years (including intelligent carb
choices). I went on coffee, had problems. I
went off coffee, problems went away. I do
agree with you that the primary cause of type
2 diabetes and “syndrome x” for most people is
poor diet and poor carb choices coupled with
lack of exercise. I also agree with you that
those areas need to be addressed first.
However, where we seem to disagree is how
important it is for healthy, trained
individuals to avoid caffeine. You say
it’s not important. I say it is. Prior to me
starting coffee, I would have been considered
healthy and trained, yet coffee messed me up.
According to your hypothosis, that shouldn’t
have happened. My view is that those people
(even trained, non-diabetic, healthy) people
who are genetically susceptable to type 2
diabetes, need to avoid caffeine. I also
believe that the only people who can “get
away with” caffeine consumption without
adverse effect are those who eat healthy,
exercise regularly, AND are NOT genetically
susceptable to type 2 diabetes. You probably
fall into that category. But a lot of other
people on this forum (including me) do not
fall into that category. In other words, I
think there is a large percentage of people
who are genetically susceptable to type 2
diabetes, and therefore a large percentage
of people who need to avoid caffeine (in
addition to eating healthy and exercising).
Free Ex, then I agree with you. However, I do not see the need for everyone to begin acting as if they MUST take caffeine out of their diet as I can picture someone logging into this forum and then going around telling everyone that they shouldn’t use it because it causes diabetes. In that aspect, I do not believe this to be the case. Does anyone else in your immediate family have diabetes? If so, then I can see where you may have done everything right and still ended up with the disorder. The fact still stands, however, that if epi is the cause of insulin resistance, then we all are pushing ourselves there just by riding home in afternoon rush hour traffic. Peace.
Professor X, your analogy between exercise induced epinephrine release and caffeine induced epinephrine release is a poor one. It is common knowledge in biochemistry that physical activity increases catecholamine release, which induces insulin resistance in fat and muscle cells. This is also the case with caffeine as it induces epinephrine release and leads to insulin resistance. However, this is where the similarities end. During exercise GLUT-4 transporters are activated (independent of insulin) and blood sugar is taken up into cells. If this were not the case then exercise would lead to abnormally high blood sugar, which we know does not happen. Caffeine unfortunately does not induce the activation of GLUT-4 transporters and would therefore lead to higher blood sugar levels unlike exercise. Obviously, if one exercised all the time while under the influence of caffeine it wouldn’t be much of a concern but few people exercise to that degree. I agree with you that active people wouldn’t feel as much of an effect on blood sugar levels as inactive people but there would be an effect during periods of physical inactivity. Free Ex seems to have done his homework on this subject and I complement him on that. This research on caffeine does seem to match what one would expect from our common knowledge of biochemistry and pharmacology as I have explained above.
Yes, I recently learned that both of my
grandmothers had “mild type 2 diabetes” -
though neither of my parents did.
But actually, epinephrine *IS* implicated in making insulin resistance worse, as does cortisol. In fact, according to research into type 2 diabetes and insulin resistance, *any* kind of "negative stress" is implicated in making the condition worse, and most treatment protocols include stress management as part of the therapy. This is also one of the reasons why magnesium is used as one treament for type 2 diabetes: it calms the sympathetic nervous system. So your comment about stressing out from driving home in rush hour traffic is actually true - it can make insulin resistance worse (believer it or not). I have several studies that go into the stress-insulin resistance connection. Below is one of them. Note that the study below mentions obesity, but I believe the stress-insulin resistance connection holds true even for non-obese people (such as me) who are genetically susceptible to insulin resistance. As a side note, most people think that you have to be obese to have type 2 diabetes/insulin resistance. But this is wrong. As much as 15-20% of all type 2 diabetes patients are NOT obese.
The paper:
Sympathetic nervous system and insulin
resistance: from obesity to diabetes.
Esler M, Rumantir M, Wiesner G, Kaye D, Hastings J, Lambert G.
Am J Hypertens 2001 Nov;14(11 Pt 2):304S-309S
"As the world faces an obesity "epidemic," the mechanisms by which overweight is translated into insulin resistance, hypertension, and diabetes need to be better understood. Although the processes of transition remain uncertain, overactivity of the sympathetic nervous system appears pivotal. In obesity, there is stimulation of sympathetic outflow to the kidneys, evident in increased rates of spillover of noradrenaline into the renal veins, and to skeletal muscle vasculature, demonstrated with microneurography. The cause is unclear, but possibly involves the stimulatory action of leptin released from adipose tissue, or from within the brain, for which there is recent evidence in human obesity. The high renal sympathetic tone contributes to hypertension development by stimulating renin secretion and through promoting renal tubular reabsorption of sodium. Neurally mediated skeletal muscle vasoconstriction reduces glucose delivery and uptake in muscle. Impairment of glucose uptake by skeletal muscle is a hallmark of insulin resistance syndromes. Pharmacologic sympathetic nervous suppression within the central nervous system with imidazoline receptor-binding agents such as rilmenidine is a logical therapeutic approach for lowering blood pressure (BP) in patients with essential hypertension, in whom sympathetic activity is often increased. In addition, drugs of this class appear to have the capacity to favorably modify insulin sensitivity, which has particular relevance in the treatment of hypertensive diabetic patients. In the hypertension accompanying maturity onset obesity, with recent recommendations from advisory bodies setting lower goal BP, and with these lower targets often being reached only with combinations of antihypertensive agents, it is advisable that all drugs used in combination therapy have a favorable or at least a neutral effect on insulin resistance."
There are plenty of research references on Medline on the causal connection between stress and insulin resistance if you care to read up on it.
You are right that the GLUT-4 transporters
playing an important differentiating role. But
this role in type 2 diabetes/insulin resistance isn’t fully understood yet.
Ken Stark, unless you are diabetic, your body should not have a problem clearing blood glucose and the length of the “insulin resistance” is not permanent upon the intake of caffeine. If it were, none of us using it for weight loss would experience much loss in weight at all. This is not as simple as, “if you take caffeine you become resistant to insulin”. There are other factors that lead to diabetes than whether you drink coffee or not which is why Free Ex has diabetes while the millions who have been taking Ripped Fuel for decades and/or drinking coffee do not. Epinephrine release would contribute to insulin resistance regardless of the uptake of glucose caused by weight training which is mostly the result of a need for this energy. Anytime epi is released, glucose and blood is shuttled to muscle tissue. This is the flight or fight response and has been known for decades to occur whether you are lifting weights or not. This is one of the causes of orthostatic hypotension when a patient faints after getting up too quickly at the doctor’s office. And yes, Free Ex, stress can cause insulin resistance however, there are still millions who do not get diabetes because they are not prone towards the disease as you have discovered that you are. I hope this is clear because it does not make sense for this kind of “panic” about caffeine to be occurring when it has been used in sports performance for longer than most of us have been alive. I will still take my thermo before I hit the weight room tonight and I will still enjoy the effects as should just about anyone else unless they have diabetes or have someone in their immediate family with the disorder.
I have no problem with anything you just
wrote except for: “and the length of the
‘insulin resistance’ is not permanent upon the
intake of caffeine”.
What you wrote there is true: the negative effect of caffeine on insulin sensitivity *is* accute, not chronic. However, let's say the effect lasts 8 hours, and someone uses a thermo product to get going first thing in the morning, and then again before going to the gym in the late afternoon/evening, and they do this every day for an indefinite period of time. In such a case the person is spending 16 hours per day, or 2/3 of their life in a state of insulin resistance. I would consider anyone spending 2/3 of their life in a state of insulin resistance as having a chronic case of insulin resistance. And I do think this happens in a large percentage of people, not just in a small number of people like you like you are trying to make it out to be.
One clarification: if you use the standard definition of "diabetes" used by doctors, then I do *not* have diabetes. My blood glucose levels are, and have always been normal, in both fasted and post prandial state. I do have insulin resistance, which is not exactly the same thing as diabetes, technically speaking.
This next comment is not directed at Prof X specifically, but to people in general. What I see happening is that people have an emotional attachment to their beloved caffeine and they will make up arguments to justify their caffeine use. Despite evidence to the contrary.
I don't have time to discuss this any more, as I've already fallen behind on my work for the day by playing around on T-mag.
BTW, if you are so convinced that normal,
healthy, trained people, who have no history
of diabetes in their family, will suffer no
or minimal loss of insulin sensitivity from
taking caffeine, then let’s put it to the
test. We conduct a study structured as I
described above, with a control and
experimental group. Feed one group caffeine
and the other a placebo, then give them both
OGTT and measure blood glucose and blood
insulin. The “loser” of the bet/debate has to
pay for the cost of the study. Assuming
similar blood glucose profiles in both groups
after the OGTT, if the mean blood insulin
level of the experimental group is within say,
20%, then I will defer to your argument, and
I’ll pay for the study. If the mean blood
insulin level of the experimental group is
more than 20% higher than the control group
mean, then my point will have been made, and
you have to pay for the study. (The
implication here is that if the experimental
group requires 20% more or greater insulin
than the control to return blood glucose to
normal, then inslun sensitivity has been
compromised by approx the amount above the
mean of the control group.) We could get Doug
Kalman or such to design the details and
impliment the study. So do we have a bet? If
you’re so sure your right, you have nothing to
lose. This would settle the debate.
Free Ex wrote:“This next comment is not directed at Prof X specifically, but to people in general. What I see happening is that people have an emotional attachment to their beloved caffeine and they will make up arguments to justify their caffeine use. Despite evidence to the contrary. “
This is true, however, you have to realize something, everything can kill us. Barbecue, paint fumes, smog, television, the microwave, and even too much sex can kill you. Does that mean that I should lock myself into a monestary, plug myself into a Bacteria-free bubble and live the rest of my days avoiding everything because of this? Hell no. With everything you weigh the risks with the positives. With all of the talk of anabolic steroids on this forum you would think that this was painfully clear. Nothing you have said has made me consider not taking a thermogenic and yes, it does slightly piss me off that people are now actually worried about this when the effects would be minimal unless you are prone to diabetes. I think the presentation was wrong but the information is right. I have eaten three chicken breasts so far today along with one salmon fillet and two protein shakes. I don’t drink, smoke, or have sex with women who look like men. I go to church occasionally and try not to spill the gas when I fill my tank and I even brush my teeth at least 2-3 times a day. Hell, I even wash my nuts on a regular basis yet this is still not enough for you. I lift weights. If I was trying to be the safest mutha in the world I would drop the weights and buy a whole bunch of Richard Simmons training videos and learn how to “rock while I sweat to the oldies”. I appreciate being able to shoot the shit with you because I have done so before and it is always a fun ride. Almost as fun as fighting with Bill Roberts. However, please, for the love of God, stop trying to make me put down my caffeine simply because YOU have diabetes. There are millions of people who drink more coffee than you drink water who do not have diabetes and are not insulin resistant. I am empathetic to what you have to deal with and I am even more interested in HOW you deal with it because I have seen about 20 patients this week with diabetes and have no doubt there will be more in my future after I graduate. Take it easy, man, and please, pass the thermo.
Could you detail the symptoms of insulin resistance and other problems you experienced during your times of caffeine consumption? What were all the effects on your health?
A truly fascinating discussion…the minds on this forum are incredible
Peace out
and keep up the discussion
Vainer
Free ex, your situation sounds very similar to mine. In fact I just went through a series of tests and show no abnormalities with regard to blood glucose yet I am extremely insulin resistant as was my father. Type 2 also ran in some of the elder members of my family. I have been noticing recently that when I sleep poorly and stress out my whole system whacks out and I can’t tolerate any carbs. My VERY uneducated opinion on this is that coffee merely exacerbates the condition, and that in the absence of sleep deprivation and undo stress, caffeine has a very different role. At least for me. I think the key here, that you touched upon, is hypertension. That is absolutely the deal breaker for me. Caffeine of course just feeds it. Funny, but on weekdays when I’m stuck in traffic a Venti of starbucks has a far more profound effect than an entire pot of freshly ground starbucks (yes I get that obsessed) on weekend mornings. I think the true issue here is adrenaline, cortisol, and whatever else stress and hypertension does to us regarding insulin resistance. Of course if you’re stressed there are probably better things to drink than caffenated beverages, and yes I admit to my addiction and attachment to coffee/caffeine (my Neapolitan heritage), but I’d rather reduce the stress!..
Ever notice you can eat whatever you want while on vacation and not gain a pound? Everything seems to work just fine. At least for me. However, we don’t live everyday on vacation so a reduction in caffeine would certainly be prudent. A reduction, but complete abstinence???
Just drink decaf!!!For all those who can not quit!!!
Free EX, I just read the post about the bet and I don’t think you understand something very important. I am a student (in debt) who must repay the costs of going to school just so I can put a DR in front of my name. That basically means I am flat broke and any discussion of me actually paying for anything until I graduate makes me sick to the stomach. If I actually had a job I would consider it, but unfortunately, I will have to pass on that. If you can find a sponsor, though, I would be all for it.
DC, that’s spoken like a true nondrinker of coffee. Like Prof X, I’m not trying to “quit” for several reasons. First, it’s something that I have to do to get by these days. Please, nobody tell me that I don’t need it. In the position in life and my career that I’m in, it’s a necessity. Second, and no offense to those who truly believe what’s been said, I’ll reserve judgement until I see further studies and/or some personal problem with insulin resistance. It hasn’t happened yet to me, and I’ve been a consumer for years. My fasting blood glucose is excellent as is my response to a glucose challenge. Having said that, I do feel bad for Free Ex and others who’ve had different experiences. It seems that it may be like medications that people have differing reactions to for some reason. If you’re sensitive, don’t consume caffeine. If you’re not, make up your own mind.