First no C+F, now no caffeine, Jesus John aren’t we allowed to have any fun, :(. j/k I know these are small sacrfices in the quest for a better body.
Time to switch to Powerdrive! It’s a truely underated supplement (in my opinion) and now that people aren’t used the caffine “buzz” they will mostlikely feel the effects, more dramatically. On a side note, give Powerdrive 2 months of contious use before you decide if it is worth it, I think one of the best ways to consume it is on an empty stomach first thing in the morning, then 20 min later after you’re dressed and shaved you can have breakfast. On a side note, I believe that “caffine free” pop falls under the 10% rule that Savannah mentioned and I can vouch that it does definitely give me a “buzz” (I’m pretty caffine sensitive.
Here is the reference for the study I mentioned. It is a great read and provides a wealth of information and citations for info on ephedrine/caffiene stacks.
Boozer et al., "Herbal ephedra/caffeine for weight loss: a 6-month randomized safety and efficacy trail" International Journal of Obesity. 26:593-604, (2002)
There is also a good 4 pages of editorial comments right before the article (pages 589-592).
I think everybody needs to calm down. I would not just accept this 100% yet. Sure those are good studies and Berardi is extremely bright, but I am not going to accept that as fact just yet. Don’t all be chicken little’s at once. There might also be other factors that contribute to these test results that have not been explored.
What about yohimbine Hcl? Anyone guess its effects on insulin sensitivty>??
Is everyone truly throwing a fit because of ONE study done in Canada? Odd.
I can vouch for Power Drive…been using it for over a year now and it’s great…the problem is that I still take a 200 mg. caffeine tab with each dose of PD.
In all seriousness, I have never had a problem getting to sub-6 percent b.f. levels with caffeine (3 doses of MD6 while cutting and a bit of diet cola on the side). If one could get quicker results by 86ing the caffeine, then I’m all for it.
As far as the caffeine free/decaf thing, I want further evidence of this. IMHO if something says “caffeine-FREE,” it damn well better be caffeine-free. I would think the FDA would be all over companies that didn’t follow this. I’ve really taken a liking to C.F. Diet Dr. Pepper, and while I am definitely lagging a bit w/o the caffeine I got from Diet Coke/Pepsi, I will adapt eventually.
Another good pre-workout booster for those of you that are getting off caffeine is Vinpocetine. It works through a similar mechanism to ginkgo biloba (supplies more oxygen to the brain I believe). Last year when I was doing a powerlifting program by Doug Hepburn (Drax will appreciate that), I used Vinpocetine and Power Drive pre-workout and I had some killer workouts.
To Jason:
Fasted glucose levels (in general)
actually don’t tell you much about insulin
sensitivity - especially if you don’t have
a concurrent insulin measurement. Also, think
about it: if a person is being tested in a
fasted state, they shouldn’t have consumed
any coffee/caffeine before the test. The
negative effect of caffeine is probably
mostly acute, not permanent. Also, when a
person is in a fasted state, they are in
a state of net loss of glucose - IE their
liver has to release glucose to maintain
blood glucose and they will have very little
insulin present. That type of situation is
not challenging to either insulin receptors or
the pancreas. So I would argue that testing
in a fasted state isn’t very useful test -
despite the fact that it is used as the
standard test for detecting type 2 diabetes.
The best way you could test for the true effect of caffeine on insulin sensitivity would be to have a control group and an experimental group. The control group gets no caffeine, the experimental group gets caffeine. Say, 30 min after caffeine ingestion in the experimental group, you administer an OGTT to both groups, and measure BOTH the blood glucose level AND blood insulin level. I am willing to bet $$ that the experimental group will require *much* higher blood insulin levels to normalize blood glucose than the control group - due to the caffeine's negative effect on insulin sensitivity. Anyone want to take me up on my bet and perform the experiment?
To Doug:
In future studies, perhaps you
might consider testing blood insulin levels
as well. As I mentioned above, I would
consider any results that didn't also consider
insulin to be highly dubious. (No offense
intended.)
Another point: Just because someone has normal fasted blood glucose levels, *does not* mean they don't suffer from insulin resistance. There are *tons* of cases where people have "sub-clinical" insulin resistance. These are type 2 diabetes patients in waiting. When a person develops chronic insulin resistance, that puts a much higher burden on their pancreas to churn out high levels of insulin. This is a vicious cycle, because insulin downregulates it's own receptor. Some peoples' pancreases will have no problem with this, while in other people this can cause there pancreas to fail, or partially fail. (BTW chronic hyperglycemia kills beta cells.) In these cases, the person then develops Type 2 diabetes. No one yet knows why the pancreas fails in some people with chronic insulin resistance, but not in others. Another side note: having chronically high insulin levels, as occurs in people with insulin resistance, has many bad health consequences. EG, cardiovascular disease, (not to mention gaining fat easily) among others. So even if your pancreas doesn't fail, being in a state of chronic insulin resistance and high insulin levels is not where you want to be.
Now IMHO, the goal should be to detect and
correct chronic insulin resistance (and thus
prevent elevated fasting blood glucose)
*before* it occurs. Waiting until someone has
elevated fasted blood glucose to treat them
for insulin resistance is just a horrendous
treatment protocol. It's like saying: let's
wait until people get REALLY fucked up before
we start treating them! Uhh, no thanks. Here
is a relevant study on the *prevention* of
Type 2 diabetes:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/ releases/2002/06/020617075530.htm
In the study above they use drugs, but the same strategy could be applied using supplements.
To Prof X:
No it is not just one study. I emailed
John Berardi about this privately about 6
months ago, and he emailed me back about a
half dozen studies demonstrating the negative
effect that caffeine has on insulin
sensitivity. (Also, I don’t see what
difference it makes that the study was
conducted in Canada - if I were Canadian I
might take offense to that.)
Hope that helps.
PS - I just wrote another response with
additional info on this topic in the thread
entitled “Caffeine”. Ya’ll might want to read
that thread too, as I don’t feel like
reposting it here.
“Is everyone truly throwing a fit because of ONE study done in Canada?”
You specified the location where the study was conducted as if it diminishes the validity of the finding. Odd. Why is that?
What about ALA? It seems like it would counter the effects of caffiene on insulin resistance quite nicely. And does anyone have any comment on r-ala versus s-ala?
What’s a good stimulant-free thermogenic product that actually works? I never got any CNS effect from ephedra/caffeine stacks…even after gradually working my way up to twice the dosage.
I made the distinction only because it was presented as only one study and that article mentioned where it was conducted. Not because I have something against Canada. I have never been there and I don’t even watch hockey. Hell, I don’t even know the national anthem although I would be interested in how their women look. I am wondering, however, why there seems to be such an uproar about insulin sensitivity unless everyone responding is a diabetic. Since when do training individuals, who by the way have been using caffeine and ephedra for years with regards to weight loss, need to be worried about insulin sensitivity to this degree? I use caffeine almost daily (Lee Labrada‘s Charge as of late). It helps me stay awake in Pharmacology class as opposed to falling asleep into the laps of the guy that sits next to me. I have not experienced any trouble losing fat as long as my diet and training are correct and I do not have diabetes. Since I don’t eat wedding cake for dinner and don’t make Twinkies a part of this nutritious breakfast, I fail to see what the problem is or the relevance to TRAINED individuals, like most of us here on this forum. If you want to cut out all caffeine because of a study that was probably done on obese middle aged women, as so many are, so be it. However, I consider the individuals training habits and state of health a HUGE piece of the puzzle as far as determining insulin sensitivity. I doubt a 300lbs 60 year old woman who think that deadlifts involve a burial will respond to carbs the same way I do. Just a guess coming from a student who does read studies as well and also realizes that many studies “proved” that steroids didn’t work. I need more proof than, “we tested 50 old women and they all got diabetes after drinking coffee”. Does that make it clear?
You raise some excellent points. Fasting glucose is a poor indicator of insulin sensitivity at best. I run into a lot of people who have an abnormal glucose response to eating, (glucose > 140 mg/dl 1 hour after eating) but who have normal fasting glucoses. It is not a great test. I realize that, but don’t you think that 6 months of chronic high doses would potentially increase insulin resistance to the point of an increased fasting glucose. My hunch says yes, but there are better tests out there that should be used. One test I’m learning more and more about is the glyco-hemoglobin. It is a test that sort of measures the average glucose value over the last few months. This could also be used along with splitting the groups up and using an OGTT.
Long live Starbucks!!! Being raised in Seattle I would be disowned for dropping the coffee. LOL! Damn after years of this, I don’t smoke, chew or even drink much anymore, no way I am giving up the Java! What’s next, sex?
So how much Coffe is bad??? what about black tea? Im trying to get ripped and im on a high protien diet so anything that helps that im willing to try 
Don’t sweat the Canadian thing. I’m a Canuck and that didn’t bother me. Although I do appreciate Free Exs’ consideration on our behalf. You guys should really consider visiting here. It’s absolutely beautiful, especially the coast. The people are laid back and your dollar is worth a $1.50 up here. Professor the women are beautiful. You should see my wife, babeoliscious! I have been wanting to get off regular caffine use. I would like to use it for cutting and thought I would get more bang from it if I wasn’t a daily user. I’m currently on day 3 of no use and except for a mild headache on day 1 I feel fine.
Check out Elzi Volk’s comments on the MFW board topic titled “Coffee and Fat”, her comments make a lot of sense, but fall under the “calorie is a calorie” category, much ante-Berardi.
from caffeine induced impairment of glucose tolerance . . . j appl. physiol 92: 2347-2352, 2002
“in summary, we have demonstrated that caffeine reduces glucose tolerance in healthy men in response to an oral glucose challenge. we have provided evidence that caffeine’s negative impact on glucose tolerance was reversed in the presence of a beta - adrenergic receptor blocker, propranol.”
the study used 5 mg/kg caffeine
the subjects were “healthy, active men (24 ±1 yr, 76 ± 4kg body wt, 23 ±1kg/m2 body mass index”
Pete, the study you listed proved that the effects on insulin were caused by the increase in epenephrine which they induced by giving caffeine. It was not a direct effect of caffeine itself which means that if you are planning on cutting out caffeine because of this, you will also have to cut out anything that increases epinephrine release which SURPRISE is damn near anything that increases heart rate…which is why they believe that beta blockers will relieve the effect. That means that this concern over it is not warranted unless you plan on lying in bed for the rest of your life in order to avoid epi release which WILL MAKE YOU FAT long before any insuline resistance will. Get it? This concern is not warranted by the study you posted.