Jehovah's Witness Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

I hate to come late to this discussion party but I thought I’d chime in about why JW’s don’t believe in eternal torment as being the punishment for sinners. I think Honest_Lifter touched on this but I’ll mention it again for emphasis. Genesis chapter 2 clearly states the punishment for sinning. At Genesis 2:17 God tells Adam that if he eats from the tree of knowledge of good and bad that he would die - not that he would be tormented in fire for all eternity. So at that moment Adam knew that the penalty for disobeying God was death. But once Adam disobeyed, God went into detail about the penalty that Adam was now facing. At Genesis 3:19 God states: “19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Again, God didn’t say that your body will turn to dust and your soul or spirit will burn forever in fire. No, he simply said he would die by going back to the same elements from which he was created from.

The Bible makes it clear that this penalty was passed to all of Adam’s descendants.
Romans 5:12 states: That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. Another scripture that explains this is 1 Corinthians 15:22: For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. Dying and returning back to the dust is the penalty that all of us as Adam’s descendants face. Again, the Bible makes it clear that death is the penalty for being sinners - not eternal torment. Romans 6:23 states: For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.. The wages or penalty for sinning is not eternal torment - it’s the sentence that was given to Adam - dying and returning to dust.

The Bible makes it clear that once we die and return to dust that our thoughts or plans cease. This is made clear at Psalms 146:3,4: Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish . Other scriptures to support this are Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, Psalms 115:17 and Isaiah 38:18.

Since all humans inherited this penalty due to no fault of their own, thankfully when this penalty is paid Jehovah mercifully gives all who died a second chance. This is clearly stated in the Bible at Acts 24:15 which states: and I have hope toward God, which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. Some translations say godly and ungodly. How can the unrighteous or ungodly be resurrected? It’s because they have paid the penalty that they inherited from Adam by dying and their sins are wiped away. This is stated at Romans 6:7: He who has died has been acquitted of sin. Some translations say freed from sin. This is why Jesus said to the evil doer who was dying next to him that he was going to be with Jesus in paradise. It wasn’t because in those few moments all of his sins were forgiven because he believed in Jesus. No, it was because that once he died he paid the penalty for sinning and he is going to be given a second chance by being resurrected in paradise. That is what Paul is talking about at Acts 24:15 - the unrighteous or ungodly like the evil doer next to Jesus, is going to be given a second chance and will be resurrected in the coming paradise. If the unrighteous or ungodly is going to be resurrected then there cannot be a place called Hell where sinners go to be tormented for all eternity.

No twisting of scriptures. The scriptures I quoted above can be found in all translations of the Bible.

162

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Seriously whatever you guys wish to believe it is fine. It just so happens that the trinity is not a scriptural teaching. You keep reposting these scriptures, but they don’t change anything. I don’t love to argue these basic points. I love to help people understand what the Bible really teaches. Sometimes that can be done with reasoning on the scriptures, other times it is with the Hebrew and Greek, other times we just say our goodbyes and head in our separate directions. This seems to be the later.[/quote]

Um…look you think Jesus Christ some sort of angel. Anyone who is seriously searching for spiritual truth should really write off the entire JW movement as a very cruel hoax, or perhaps worse. It’s certainly something far outside of Christianity.

Sorry man.

163

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]storey420 wrote:

If the message that was preached wasn’t “he is the ONLY way and ONLY through him (and our teachings) can you get to salvation”, well that wouldn’t retain too many followers now would it?
Jesus and his teachings should be studied and admired and he deserve praise for sure but more for his life’s work rather than he is magic and the son of God.[/quote]

How can a liar deserve praise?
[/quote]

Jesus is not a liar, men who followed afterwards and wanted to neatly control people now that’s another story. THEY are your liars. Jesus was the example for all of us of what we can be.[/quote]

So the people the Jesus personally chose as his disciples and trusted the most were liars?
[/quote]

I don’t think the direct disciples were although it is of course always possible. I think the liars are more so the men throughout the years that have translated and distributed the teachings and wanted to twist the message to meet their agenda at the time. Remember what you read today is the culmination of what various men (with agendas) have wanted to include. Lots of truths and wisdom in the book though a lotof parts have been omitted.[/quote]

A couple of things:

  1. Peter and many other writers of the Bible walked with Jesus Christ. If Christ is as great as you and I think he is, he is surely smart enough to choose the apostles wisely. And in the book of Peter he declares Jesus as God and savior. And of course says many other things that he witnessed personally. And his two book do not contradict any of the books written by those who were not Jesus direct disciples.

  2. The Bible is the most accurate of all ancient books including Plato and Socrates works. In addition to that I’m sure you’ve kept abreast of the great find in the 1940’s of the Dead Sea Scrolls. They upheld every word of the Old Testament.

Look, I understand where you’re coming from the Bible and Jesus Christ in general is easy to attack. But I’ve found that those who spend some time researching it on their own quickly find out that it is accurate.

I should know as I was at one time the worlds biggest doubter, that is until I actually read the Bible from cover to cover and then researched it with other ancient documents.

All the best to you Storey!

Zeb

164

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I eat donuts in the Alberton’s parking lot on Sunday mornings and am frequently approached by JWs.[/quote]

Okay the bigger question is, WHY ARE YOU EATIN DOUGHNUTS?

165

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I eat donuts in the Alberton’s parking lot on Sunday mornings and am frequently approached by JWs.[/quote]

Okay the bigger question is, WHY ARE YOU EATIN DOUGHNUTS?[/quote]

Why aren’t you?! Geez!

166

[quote]asusvenus wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I eat donuts in the Alberton’s parking lot on Sunday mornings and am frequently approached by JWs.[/quote]

Okay the bigger question is, WHY ARE YOU EATIN DOUGHNUTS?[/quote]

Why aren’t you?! Geez!

[/quote]

Trying to keep 10% body fat and it seems that doughnuts never help :slight_smile:

167

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]belligerent wrote:
I eat donuts in the Alberton’s parking lot on Sunday mornings and am frequently approached by JWs.[/quote]

Okay the bigger question is, WHY ARE YOU EATIN DOUGHNUTS?[/quote]

They used to serve donuts and coffee after church when I was a kid and that was the only reason I liked to go. So now I skip church and go straight for the donuts.

168

Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?

169

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Seriously whatever you guys wish to believe it is fine. It just so happens that the trinity is not a scriptural teaching. You keep reposting these scriptures, but they don’t change anything. I don’t love to argue these basic points. I love to help people understand what the Bible really teaches. Sometimes that can be done with reasoning on the scriptures, other times it is with the Hebrew and Greek, other times we just say our goodbyes and head in our separate directions. This seems to be the later.[/quote]Um…look you think Jesus Christ some sort of angel. Anyone who is seriously searching for spiritual truth should really write off the entire JW movement as a very cruel hoax, or perhaps worse. It’s certainly something far outside of Christianity.
Sorry man.[/quote]It is no fun declaring something like this and no person in whom dwells the love of God does so joyously, but this is indeed the case. I will go out on a limb and say that I’m betting I have more face time with JW’s (and Mormons) than anybody here. You grow to love these folks and are grieved tremendously to think of how lost they are despite many of them being externally fine and upright people.

I had a blast with the two Mormon missionaries who were in my area at the time. (Elder Havens and Elder Melville, miss you guys). I took them out to dinner on Elder Havens birthday. Had a great time (Their first name is “elder” for 2 years. Not really, but that’s how they refer to themselves and each other). I don’t know how many dozens of hours I’ve spent with JW’s. (Bill and Chad, (father and son) especially you guys) When you hear me talking about adherents to these heresies being lost and damned it certainly isn’t because I like it that way. Oh how I pray God will save them, but telling them they’re good to go because it makes me feel better is not loving or compassionate.

170

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Seriously whatever you guys wish to believe it is fine.[/quote]

This is what JW say when they are faced with the facts.

This rolls off their tongue even though Brother Chris and I both posted numerous passages which demonstrate that God and Christ are one IS a scriptural teaching. It’s called many years of indoctrination.

Not to a typical JW because you are not supposed to accept them—or the truth.

But until you actually understand them you’ll have many Christians pointing them out to you. Stop arguing and start looking at the scripture objectively.

I pray that you do less of that and that the people whom you speak with have the good sense to think for themselves.

Bye. But with this goodbye I want to warn all others who are seeking spiritual truth to turn away from Jehovha Witnesses - it is a dangerous doctrine one that tries to steal the divinity from Christ among many other vile things.

171

If you have issues with our view of the trinity, head over to that thread and disprove what I wrote. I offered that already, yet no one has gone over there yet…

172

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you have issues with our view of the trinity, head over to that thread and disprove what I wrote. I offered that already, yet no one has gone over there yet…[/quote]Don’t you understand what’s at the core of what you’re asking people to believe? Between 336 and 1870 God left the Earth without a consistent legitimate witness to His nature and gospel? Nobody who actually knows the God of the bible could ever believe He would or even could allow that. Christians are not on a mission to contrive new and innovative ways to persecute the poor ol christian witnesses.

I’m not being sarcastic. I’m being honest. The bible does not now nor has it ever taught what you believe about rather significant areas of doctrine like who and what God is for instance. The society’s scholarship has been repeatedly decimated by every reputable linguist in history leaving a few no name liberals to support them.

You’ve been pounding this same fractured thinking regarding the holy scriptures for a few generations now with a smattering of renowned false prophecy thrown in lest it remain unclear how far removed from the most high God the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society truly is.

I implore you my friend. Forsake this idolatrous false god you’ve exalted in His place and turn to the one who alone is able to save.

173

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you have issues with our view of the trinity, head over to that thread and disprove what I wrote. I offered that already, yet no one has gone over there yet…[/quote]

I gave you a multitude of scripture which proves the Trinity. Besides I watched Brother Chris pretty much prove you wrong on that thread. Why don’t you just look at things objectively, see the light.

174

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you have issues with our view of the trinity, head over to that thread and disprove what I wrote. I offered that already, yet no one has gone over there yet…[/quote]Don’t you understand what’s at the core of what you’re asking people to believe? Between 336 and 1870 God left the Earth without a consistent legitimate witness to His nature and gospel? Nobody who actually knows the God of the bible could ever believe He would or even could allow that. Christians are not on a mission to contrive new and innovative ways to persecute the poor ol christian witnesses.

I’m not being sarcastic. I’m being honest. The bible does not now nor has it ever taught what you believe about rather significant areas of doctrine like who and what God is for instance. The society’s scholarship has been repeatedly decimated by every reputable linguist in history leaving a few no name liberals to support them.

You’ve been pounding this same fractured thinking regarding the holy scriptures for a few generations now with a smattering of renowned false prophecy thrown in lest it remain unclear how far removed from the most high God the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society truly is.

I implore you my friend. Forsake this idolatrous false God you’ve exalted in His place and turn to the one who alone is able to save.[/quote]

Amen brother!

175

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]

Bumpity bump bump

176

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]
That’s a good question. No where in the Bible is the holy spirit mentioned as being equal to God or even at God’s side like Jesus is. The Bible states that Jesus is at the right hand of God a dozen times in the Christian-Greek scriptures but it never mentions the holy spirit being at God’s right hand. One such example is at Act 7:55,56: “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” These verses explain alot. These verses mention God, Jesus and the holy spirit. Stephen sees two distinct and separate beings standing next to each other when he has this vision of heaven - God and Jesus at his right hand. There is no mention of the holy spirit. However, the verses do mention that Stephen was able to see this vision due to the fact that he was full of holy spirit. Luke 1:35 is an excellent passage that shows what the holy spirit is. Luke 1:35 states: In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” In both of the scriptures that I quoted above it was God’s holy spirit that gave Stephen and Mary the power to perform something incredible. Holy spirit allowed Stephen to catch a glimps of heaven and holy spirit enabled Mary to have a child despite being a virgin.

Micah 3:8 is another passage that shows holy spirit is God’s power. Micah 3:8 states: “And, on the other hand, I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah, and of justice and mightiness, in order to tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.” Acts 1:8 is another one. Act 1:8 states: "but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you." The holy spirit is the means by which God exerts his power.

Think about this Forbes. The Bible compares the holy spirit to water. When promising future blessings for his people, God said at Isaiah 44:3: “I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.” When God pours out his spirit upon his servants, they become “full of holy spirit,” or “filled with holy spirit.” Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and the disciples who were gathered together on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. are all described as being full of, or filled with, holy spirit (Luke 1:15; 4:1; Acts 4:8; 9:17; 11:22, 24; 13:9). Could a person be ‘poured out’ on many different individuals? Would you say that one person could ‘fill’ a whole group of people? That defies logic. The Bible does refer to people becoming filled with wisdom, understanding, or even accurate knowledge, but it never describes anyone as being filled with another person.

Some say that since the holy spirit is personified that it must be a person. Jesus did speak of the holy spirit as being a helper and spoke of such helper as teaching, bearing witness, giving evidence and guiding but this does not mean that it is a person. It is not unusual in the Bible for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. For example, Wisdom is personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35 where it is depicted as having both works and children. The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings”(Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12). He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing’(Romans 7:8-11). Yet he obviously didn’t meant that sin was an actual person.

The holy spirit being a person and equal to God is not a Bible teaching. It came about in the fourth century around the same time the trinity came into existence.

177

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]
That’s a good question. No where in the Bible is the holy spirit mentioned as being equal to God or even at God’s side like Jesus is. The Bible states that Jesus is at the right hand of God a dozen times in the Christian-Greek scriptures but it never mentions the holy spirit being at God’s right hand. One such example is at Act 7:55,56: “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” These verses explain alot. These verses mention God, Jesus and the holy spirit. Stephen sees two distinct and separate beings standing next to each other when he has this vision of heaven - God and Jesus at his right hand. There is no mention of the holy spirit. However, the verses do mention that Stephen was able to see this vision due to the fact that he was full of holy spirit. Luke 1:35 is an excellent passage that shows what the holy spirit is. Luke 1:35 states: In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” In both of the scriptures that I quoted above it was God’s holy spirit that gave Stephen and Mary the power to perform something incredible. Holy spirit allowed Stephen to catch a glimps of heaven and holy spirit enabled Mary to have a child despite being a virgin.

Micah 3:8 is another passage that shows holy spirit is God’s power. Micah 3:8 states: “And, on the other hand, I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah, and of justice and mightiness, in order to tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.” Acts 1:8 is another one. Act 1:8 states: "but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you." The holy spirit is the means by which God exerts his power.

Think about this Forbes. The Bible compares the holy spirit to water. When promising future blessings for his people, God said at Isaiah 44:3: “I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.” When God pours out his spirit upon his servants, they become “full of holy spirit,” or “filled with holy spirit.” Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and the disciples who were gathered together on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. are all described as being full of, or filled with, holy spirit (Luke 1:15; 4:1; Acts 4:8; 9:17; 11:22, 24; 13:9). Could a person be ‘poured out’ on many different individuals? Would you say that one person could ‘fill’ a whole group of people? That defies logic. The Bible does refer to people becoming filled with wisdom, understanding, or even accurate knowledge, but it never describes anyone as being filled with another person.

Some say that since the holy spirit is personified that it must be a person. Jesus did speak of the holy spirit as being a helper and spoke of such helper as teaching, bearing witness, giving evidence and guiding but this does not mean that it is a person. It is not unusual in the Bible for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. For example, Wisdom is personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35 where it is depicted as having both works and children. The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings”(Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12). He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing’(Romans 7:8-11). Yet he obviously didn’t meant that sin was an actual person.

The holy spirit being a person and equal to God is not a Bible teaching. It came about in the fourth century around the same time the trinity came into existence.

[/quote]

The Holy Spirit is mentioned over 250 times in the Christian Bible.

And it comes FROM the Father, who could it not be equal to the Father?

John 15:26 “When the councilor comes whom I will send to you from the Father, the spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.”

Do you understand that there does not have to be a scripture that says “the Holy Spirit is equal to God” anymore than someone has to say that my right arm is equal to my left.

Logic, if the councilor comes FROM the Father they are obviously a part of each other.

Now this should be the end of the discussion but it won’t be. I marvel at the false teachings that have been handed down by those who either have no clue, or have been purposely deceived.

178

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]

Bumpity bump bump[/quote]LOOK AT FROSTY GO OHHHH!!! LOL! You haven’t been getting my PMs have you?

179

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]

Bumpity bump bump[/quote]LOOK AT FROSTY GO OHHHH!!! LOL! You haven’t been getting my PMs have you?
[/quote]

I have NO CLUE why my posts aren’t even going through but anyways, no I haven’t been getting your PM’s and it seems I can’t send or recieve them. What were your PM’s about?

I will try to get to the bottom of this.

180

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]
That’s a good question. No where in the Bible is the holy spirit mentioned as being equal to God or even at God’s side like Jesus is. The Bible states that Jesus is at the right hand of God a dozen times in the Christian-Greek scriptures but it never mentions the holy spirit being at God’s right hand. One such example is at Act 7:55,56: “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” These verses explain alot. These verses mention God, Jesus and the holy spirit. Stephen sees two distinct and separate beings standing next to each other when he has this vision of heaven - God and Jesus at his right hand. There is no mention of the holy spirit. However, the verses do mention that Stephen was able to see this vision due to the fact that he was full of holy spirit. Luke 1:35 is an excellent passage that shows what the holy spirit is. Luke 1:35 states: In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.” In both of the scriptures that I quoted above it was God’s holy spirit that gave Stephen and Mary the power to perform something incredible. Holy spirit allowed Stephen to catch a glimps of heaven and holy spirit enabled Mary to have a child despite being a virgin.

Micah 3:8 is another passage that shows holy spirit is God’s power. Micah 3:8 states: “And, on the other hand, I myself have become full of power, with the spirit of Jehovah, and of justice and mightiness, in order to tell to Jacob his revolt and to Israel his sin.” Acts 1:8 is another one. Act 1:8 states: "but you will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon you." The holy spirit is the means by which God exerts his power.

Think about this Forbes. The Bible compares the holy spirit to water. When promising future blessings for his people, God said at Isaiah 44:3: “I shall pour out water upon the thirsty one, and trickling streams upon the dry place. I shall pour out my spirit upon your seed, and my blessing upon your descendants.” When God pours out his spirit upon his servants, they become “full of holy spirit,” or “filled with holy spirit.” Jesus, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, and the disciples who were gathered together on the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. are all described as being full of, or filled with, holy spirit (Luke 1:15; 4:1; Acts 4:8; 9:17; 11:22, 24; 13:9). Could a person be ‘poured out’ on many different individuals? Would you say that one person could ‘fill’ a whole group of people? That defies logic. The Bible does refer to people becoming filled with wisdom, understanding, or even accurate knowledge, but it never describes anyone as being filled with another person.

Some say that since the holy spirit is personified that it must be a person. Jesus did speak of the holy spirit as being a helper and spoke of such helper as teaching, bearing witness, giving evidence and guiding but this does not mean that it is a person. It is not unusual in the Bible for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. For example, Wisdom is personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35 where it is depicted as having both works and children. The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings”(Romans 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12). He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing’(Romans 7:8-11). Yet he obviously didn’t meant that sin was an actual person.

The holy spirit being a person and equal to God is not a Bible teaching. It came about in the fourth century around the same time the trinity came into existence.

[/quote]

The Holy Spirit is mentioned over 250 times in the Christian Bible.

And it comes FROM the Father, who could it not be equal to the Father?

John 15:26 “When the councilor comes whom I will send to you from the Father, the spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.”

Do you understand that there does not have to be a scripture that says “the Holy Spirit is equal to God” anymore than someone has to say that my right arm is equal to my left.

Logic, if the councilor comes FROM the Father they are obviously a part of each other.

Now this should be the end of the discussion but it won’t be. I marvel at the false teachings that have been handed down by those who either have no clue, or have been purposely deceived.

[/quote]
The only thing I can do is shake my head when I see this type of reasoning. This is one of the main problems with believing something like the trinity. When one is taught to believe in and put faith in a doctrine that is not clearly taught in the Bible and is explained by saying that it is too high and complex for humans to fully understand this type of thinking can completely ruin ones ability to reason from the scriptures.

What you said above is the perfect example of this. You admit that the holy spirit being God is not stated in the Bible then why would you believe it? You’ve been spouting off about how we’re so mislead and deceived but who’s the one really deceived? Someone who admits that a doctrine is not in the Bible but still chooses to believe it or someone who uses the Bible as their guide, looks at multiple scriptures to see what the Bible states about a particular subject and forms a believe based on what the Bible says? Most people who can reason from the scriptures would say the latter. In fact there are multiple passages in the Bible that state that this is exact way one should find answers.

2 Timothy 3:16 states: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

Acts 17:11,12 states: “Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them became believers.”

Both of the above scripture show that to find the answers one must use the Bible as his guide. That’s exactly what I did in my above post. I used multiple scriptures from the Bible to show that the holy spirit is God’s power - not God himself.

Come on Zeb! Just because the holy spirit comes from God then it must be God himself? Absolutely not. If I stack up a couple of paper cups on top of each other, take a deep breath and blow them over, is the air I just forced out of my body really me. Or if I break a piece of my nail off my finger and drop it on the ground is that nail really me? Of course not. The air from my lungs and the nail from my finger came from me but neither is mse2us nor are they equal to me.

Zeb think of the holy spirit this way. Picture a super hero who has power to do a number of super things. When the super hero chooses to use his power to lift a car, read someones mind or control someone, that power or force that he exerts which is usually depicted as an invisible force, comes from his body and it accomplishes whatever it is he wants to do like lifting a car. No one thinks that the force that comes from the super hero that lifted the car is equal to the super hero himself. Everyone knows that this is his power that he used to accomplish a super feat like lifting a car. The same can be said about the holy spirit. God uses the holy spirit or his power for things such as creating, discerning peoples thoughts and empowering people. Yes, it does come from God but like a super hero who uses his force to do super things, God uses the holy spirit or power to accomplish his will.

The holy spirit being God’s power is what the Bible teaches. The teaching that the holy spirit is part of a triune god and is one and the same as Jehovah and Jesus is completely false.