Jehovah's Witness Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Are you also a Jehova Witness? This is almost the same type of illogic that honest_lifter used to try to convince us that Jesus Christ was not God. So, you’re not a Christian?

Here we go again (deep sigh):

"Christian doctrine is set forth by God’s word as covenant, the Holy Scriptures. Scripture expresses God as three persons, yet one God. The three persons are namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: - Deuteronomy 6:4

The Hebrew word for â??Godâ?? is â??Elohimâ?? which is a plural. The Biblical Hebrew word for â??oneâ?? in the above passage is â??echadâ?? which is a corporate oneness, not merely a numeric count. God is a plural number of persons yet one. The word one as “echad” is continually used in referrence to the one true God throughout the Holy Scriptures.

A clear example of the meaning of the Hebrew word “echad” may be also found in the celebration of the Jewish Passover. The three-pocketed matza holder used during Passover is referred to as an “echad”. Consequently, it is the middle of the three matzas that is broken during the ceremony. The Holy Trinity of God and the brokenness of the Second Person of the Trinity are clearly revealed in this ancient tradition. The “echad”, the one true God, is the Holy Trinity.

The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30).

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. - John 8:17-18

If God the Father and His Son Jesus are not two persons, neither can they be two witnesses. It is clearly seen from the above words of God’s Son Jesus that He and the Father are two persons. Together with the Holy Spirit the three are one.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26

Who is the â??usâ?? here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The â??usâ?? is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as “us” unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our Lordâ?¦

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. â?? Genesis 11:6-7

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. â?? Isaiah 6:8

Isaiah was not volunteering to go for anyone besides the Lord who is mentioned in first person plural.

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. â?? Isaiah 6:3

Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.

The Holy Trinity is revealed in Scripture in other ways as wellâ?¦

Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. â?? Isaiah 34:16

my = God, the Father

mouth = God, the Son (The Word)

spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - Exodus 3:15

God of Abraham = revelation of God, the Father

God of Isaac = revelation of God, the Son

God of Jacob = revelation of God, the Holy Spirit

The three are one God.

Same is seen in Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5, Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37 and other places in Holy Scripture.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. â?? Matthew 3:16-17

Jesus = God, the Son

saw

Spirit of God = God, the Spirit

and heard

a voice saying â??myâ?? = God, the Father

All Deity, three persons, not one person.

Let us not forget this passageâ?¦

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

Also…

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. â?? Luke 1:35

Highest = God, the Father

Son of God = God, the Son (Jesus)

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. - John 3:34

God = God, the Father

he, him = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. â?? John 14:26

Father = God, the Father

my, I = God, the Son

Comforter, Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. - Acts 2:32-33

God, Father = God, the Father

Jesus, he = God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. - Romans 8:11

him, he, his = God, the Father

Jesus, Christ = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. â?? 1 Corinthians 12:3

God = God, the Father

Jesus, Lord = God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

â??Lordâ?? here shows that Jesus is master and that he is God, but not that he is Godhead.

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. â?? 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

God = God, the Father

Lord = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. â?? 2 Corinthians 13:14

God = God, the Father

Lord Jesus Christ= God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. â?? Galatians 4:6

God = God, the Father

Son = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Ephesians 4:5 below is a favorite quote among U.P.s which says “One Lord, one faith, one baptism”. United Pentecostalists take these words completely out of context and meaning when saying that the “One Lord” is the Godhead. Let us read it in its proper contextâ?¦

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. â?? Ephesians 4:4-6

One God and Father = God, the Father

One Lord = God, the Son

one Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. â?? 1 Peter 1:2

God the Father = God, the Father

Jesus Christ = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.- Revelation 4:8

It is true that the word “Trinity” is not present in the Bible but the doctrine is there, just as the doctrine of “Monotheism” is in the Scriptures without the actual word being present in the text.

Although the word “Trinity” was not coined until later, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was nevertheless present in the early church and was the belief of Christians as it is has been the doctrinal faith of Christians throughout the centuries and today.

182

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]

Bumpity bump bump[/quote]LOOK AT FROSTY GO OHHHH!!! LOL! You haven’t been getting my PMs have you?
[/quote]

I have NO CLUE why my posts aren’t even going through but anyways, no I haven’t been getting your PM’s and it seems I can’t send or recieve them. What were your PM’s about?

I will try to get to the bottom of this. [/quote]I’ll ask Matt if he can see what’s up. Brother Chris had the exact same issue for a while.

183

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
Ok next question, since I have gathered JW beliefs on hell and of course the trinity.

Lets talk about the Holy Spirit, and why you guys believe that he is just an impersonable force?[/quote]

Bumpity bump bump[/quote]LOOK AT FROSTY GO OHHHH!!! LOL! You haven’t been getting my PMs have you?
[/quote]

I have NO CLUE why my posts aren’t even going through but anyways, no I haven’t been getting your PM’s and it seems I can’t send or recieve them. What were your PM’s about?

I will try to get to the bottom of this. [/quote]I’ll ask Matt if he can see what’s up. Brother Chris had the exact same issue for a while.
[/quote]

You have to go into options, you’re not allowing anyone that isn’t your friend PM you.

184

I added you both as friend’s so accept or I will be angry… :wink:

185

I have never accepted anybody’s. not because I’m unfriendly, I just never did from my beginning here when I didn’t even know what it meant. I’ve never asked anybody either. Not even Professor X (I don’t think). Nuthin personal with anybody at all.

186

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I have never accepted anybody’s. not because I’m unfriendly, I just never did from my beginning here when I didn’t even know what it meant. I’ve never asked anybody either. Not even Professor X (I don’t think). Nuthin personal with anybody at all.[/quote]

Well other than that I dont know how to converse with you through PM’s then since they won’t work. I tried looking for the options tab BC was talking about but couldn’t find it.

187

Alright i think I fixed it. Try sending one to me.

188

mse2us wrote:

Zeb, I’ll try to help your understanding about several of your points you wrote above. First of all, you’re quoting from the King James translation of the Bible which is one of the worst translations available today. Unfortunately, you do have to learn about the different translations of the Bible and read several translations of the Bible to have a better understanding of the scriptures.

1 John 5:7,8 is one reason why. 1 John 5:7,8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that the three all constitute just on God. This passage was in the Latin Vulgate and was the main passage to support the Trinity doctrine.

Without this passage the Trinity must be inferred from a number of passages combined to show that Jesus is God as is the spirit and the father and that there is only one God. The problem Zeb is that this passage the way it is worded in the Latin Vulgate and the King James Bible is not found in the Greek manuscripts. What is found in the Greek manuscripts is the following:
“There are three that bear witness: the spirit, the water and the blood, and these three are one.”

The above is the correct translation of 1 John 5:7,8 and if you look at other Bibles such as the NIV, Revised Standard Version or New American Bible they all render 1 John 5:7,8 that way.

Now to some of your other points:

[quote]Zeb wrote:
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Ã???Ã Isaiah 6:3

Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.[/quote]

Numbers are sometimes used in symbolic references. The context usually shows in which sense the number is used. Certain numbers appear often in the Bible in an illustrative, figurative, or symbolic sense, and understanding their significance is key to understanding of the meaning of the text. The number three is one such example.

The number three is used at times to represent intensity, emphasis, or added strength. “A threefold cord cannot quickly be torn in two.” (Ec 4:12) Emphasis was achieved in Jesus’ threefold questioning of Peter after Peter’s three denials of Jesus. (Mt 26:34,75, John 21:15-17) The vision telling Peter to eat of all kinds of animals, including those unclean according to the Law, was intensified by being given to him three times.

This doubtless made it easier for Peter to understand, when Cornelius and his household accepted the good news, that God was now turning his attention to uncircumcised people of the nations, considered unclean by the Jews. - Ac 10:1-16,28-35, 47, 48.

Before taking the last earthly king of the line of David off the throne, Jehovah said: “A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” Here he emphatically showed there would be no Davidic kings sitting upon the throne at Jerusalem in his name - the throne would be absolutely vacant-until God’s time to establish his Messiah in Kingdom power. (Eze 21:27) The intensity of woes to come to those dwelling on earth is forecast by the triple repetition of the declaration “woe.” - Re 8:13.

God being called Holy three times at Isaiah 6:3 shows the intensity of God’s holiness and cleanness. It in no way shows that God is part of a triune Godhead.

[quote]
The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30).

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22[/quote]

You’re right. When Jesus said that I and the father are one at John 10:30 he was referring to them being united and in agreement. The passage you quoted at John 17:20-23 supports this because he wants his disciple to be one with each other and one with him and his father.

This is the same oneness that God said at Genesis 2:24 which states: “That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” Two people - one flesh. Jesus saying that he and the father are one at John 10:30 in no way supports the trinity. Just like the old Army slogan “Army of One” which meant that the thousands of soldiers in the Army function like one single unit, Jesus and God are in complete agreement and harmony with each other so much so that they can be considered one.

[quote]
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26

Who is the Ã???Ã?¢??us here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The Ã???Ã?us¢?? is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as “us” unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our LordÃ???Ã?[/quote]

No, God did not have a pronoun problem. God was talking to Jesus in his heavenly position when he created man. Jesus himself said that he was up in heaven with God before the world was created. John 17:5 states:
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” Yes, Jesus was in heaven not as God but alongside God or with God before the world was created. So yes God was speaking to another person - his son in his heavenly position.

Yes, God did use Jesus to create everything that came into existence. The Bible states this in several places. John 1:3 states that “all things came into existence through him.”

Colossians 1:16 states: “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.”

Those two passages show that all things were created THROUGH Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 and Hebrews 1:1-3 sheds light on this even more.

1 Corinthians 8:5,6 states For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things are, and we through him.

Hebrews 1:1-3 states: “God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 [/i]has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things[/i]. 3 He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.”

1 Corinthians 8:5,6 and Hebrews 1:1-3 makes it clear that God made the system of things THROUGH Jesus.

Zeb, when you get a chance read Proverbs 8:22-30 and if you want to know who wisdom is read
1 Corinthians 1:30.

Zeb, none of the passages you stated in your post clearly show that Jesus is God by specifically including both God and Jesus in the same passage and stating which is greater. The passages I quote below do exactly that - specifically mention both God and Jesus and not only clearly distinguishes between the two but clearly states who is greater.

Jesus himself said at John 14:28 that the Father is greater than he is.

John 20:17 states: "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

When Jesus ascended to heaven to be with his God and Father did he become the God and Father. No. Stephen explains it clearly at Act 7:55,56 that he saw Jesus standing at “God’s right hand.” If Jesus is at God’s right hand which denotes a position of second in command, he cannot be God Almighty. There are over a dozen scriptures in the Bible that specifically state that Jesus is at God’s right hand while he is in heaven. I’ll list a couple.
(Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12, 1Peter 3:22)

1 Corinthians 11:3 states: “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” Come on, do I really have to explain that scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 26-28:
“For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Clear and directly stated - Jesus is going to subject himself to God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God or be equal to God.

189

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Zeb, I’ll try to help your understanding about several of your points you wrote above. First of all, you’re quoting from the King James translation of the Bible which is one of the worst translations available today. Unfortunately, you do have to learn about the different translations of the Bible and read several translations of the Bible to have a better understanding of the scriptures. 1 John 5:7,8 is one reason why. 1 John 5:7,8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that the three all constitute just on God. This passage was in the Latin Vulgate and was the main passage to support the Trinity doctrine. Without this passage the Trinity must be inferred from a number of passages combined to show that Jesus is God as is the spirit and the father and that there is only one God. The problem Zeb is that this passage the way it is worded in the Latin Vulgate and the King James Bible is not found in the Greek manuscripts. What is found in the Greek manuscripts is the following:
“There are three that bear witness: the spirit, the water and the blood, and these three are one.”

[quote]Zeb wrote:
The above is the correct translation of 1 John 5:7,8 and if you look at other Bibles such as the NIV, Revised Standard Version or New American Bible they all render 1 John 5:7,8 that way.

Now to some of your other points:

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. �?�¢?? Isaiah 6:3

Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.[/quote]

Numbers are sometimes used in symbolic references. The context usually shows in which sense the number is used. Certain numbers appear often in the Bible in an illustrative, figurative, or symbolic sense, and understanding their significance is key to understanding of the meaning of the text. The number three is one such example. The number three is used at times to represent intensity, emphasis, or added strength. “A threefold cord cannot quickly be torn in two.” (Ec 4:12) Emphasis was achieved in Jesus’ threefold questioning of Peter after Peter’s three denials of Jesus. (Mt 26:34,75, John 21:15-17) The vision telling Peter to eat of all kinds of animals, including those unclean according to the Law, was intensified by being given to him three times. This doubtless made it easier for Peter to understand, when Cornelius and his household accepted the good news, that God was now turning his attention to uncircumcised people of the nations, considered unclean by the Jews. - Ac 10:1-16,28-35, 47, 48.
Before taking the last earthly king of the line of David off the throne, Jehovah said: “A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” Here he emphatically showed there would be no Davidic kings sitting upon the throne at Jerusalem in his name - the throne would be absolutely vacant-until God’s time to establish his Messiah in Kingdom power. (Eze 21:27) The intensity of woes to come to those dwelling on earth is forecast by the triple repetition of the declaration “woe.” - Re 8:13.

God being called Holy three times at Isaiah 6:3 shows the intensity of God’s holiness and cleanness. It in no way shows that God is part of a triune Godhead.

[quote]
The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30).

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22[/quote]

You’re right. When Jesus said that I and the father are one at John 10:30 he was referring to them being united and in agreement. The passage you quoted at John 17:20-23 supports this because he wants his disciple to be one with each other and one with him and his father. This is the same oneness that God said at Genesis 2:24 which states: “That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” Two people - one flesh. Jesus saying that he and the father are one at John 10:30 in no way supports the trinity. Just like the old Army slogan “Army of One” which meant that the thousands of soldiers in the Army function like one single unit, Jesus and God are in complete agreement and harmony with each other so much so that they can be considered one.

[quote]
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26

Who is the Ã??Ã?¢??usÃ??Ã?¢?? here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The Ã??Ã?¢??usÃ??Ã?¢?? is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as “us” unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our LordÃ??Ã?¢?Ã??Ã?¦[/quote]

No, God did not have a pronoun problem. God was talking to Jesus in his heavenly position when he created man. Jesus himself said that he was up in heaven with God before the world was created. John 17:5 states:
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” Yes, Jesus was in heaven not as God but alongside God or with God before the world was created. So yes God was speaking to another person - his son in his heavenly position.

Yes, God did use Jesus to create everything that came into existence. The Bible states this in several places. John 1:3 states that “all things came into existence through him.” Colossians 1:16 states: “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.” Those two passages show that all things were created [b]THROUGH[b] Jesus. 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 and Hebrews 1:1-3 sheds light on this even more. These verses state:
For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH whom all things are, and we through him.

Hebrews 1:1-3 states: “God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 [/i]has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things[/i]. 3 He is the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.”

1 Corinthians 8:5,6 and Hebrews 1:1-3 makes it clear that God made the system of things THROUGH Jesus.

Zeb, when you get a chance read Proverbs 8:22-30 and if you want to know who wisdom is read
1 Corinthians 1:30.

Zeb, none of the passages you stated in your post clearly show that Jesus is God by specifically including both God and Jesus in the same passage and stating which is greater. The passages I quote below do exactly that - specifically mention both God and Jesus and not only clearly distinguishes between the two but clearly states who is greater.

Jesus himself said at John 14:28 that the Father is greater than he is.

John 20:17 states: "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

When Jesus ascended to heaven to be with his God and Father did he become the God and Father. No. Stephen explains it clearly at Act 7:55,56 that he saw Jesus standing at “God’s right hand.” If Jesus is at God’s right hand which denotes a position of second in command, he cannot be God Almighty. There are over a dozen scriptures in the Bible that specifically state that Jesus is at God’s right hand while he is in heaven. I’ll list a couple.
(Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34, Hebrews 10:12, 1Peter 3:22)

1 Corinthians 11:3 states: “But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” Come on, do I really have to explain that scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 26-28:
“For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Clear and directly stated - Jesus is going to subject himself to God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God or be equal to God.
[/quote] [/quote]

Your quote function didn’t seem to work this time around my friend so I didn’t take the time to figure out what you were saying. But I did supply you with enough scripture on my previous post which clearly points out the error of your ways. As a Christian I am convinced through the scripture (some of which I posted) that the Trinity is very real. If the truth that I posted is not enough for you then nothing else I can post will help either. The scriptures are quite old and ten’s of thousands of Bible scholars have reviewed original texts and came to the same conclusions that I have. If you have the opportunity perhaps you could share your beliefs with a good Bible scholar off-line. Until then I’m afraid like all religious and most political matters debated on this forum we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

All the best,

Zeb

190

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Zeb, I’ll try to help your understanding about several of your points you wrote above. First of all, you’re quoting from the King James translation of the Bible which is one of the worst translations available today. Unfortunately, you do have to learn about the different translations of the Bible and read several translations of the Bible to have a better understanding of the scriptures. 1 John 5:7,8 is one reason why. 1 John 5:7,8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that delineates the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, but that the three all constitute just on God. This passage was in the Latin Vulgate and was the main passage to support the Trinity doctrine. Without this passage the Trinity must be inferred from a number of passages combined to show that Jesus is God as is the spirit and the father and that there is only one God. The problem Zeb is that this passage the way it is worded in the Latin Vulgate and the King James Bible is not found in the Greek manuscripts. What is found in the Greek manuscripts is the following:
“There are three that bear witness: the spirit, the water and the blood, and these three are one.”

[quote]Zeb wrote:
The above is the correct translation of 1 John 5:7,8 and if you look at other Bibles such as the NIV, Revised Standard Version or New American Bible they all render 1 John 5:7,8 that way.

Now to some of your other points:

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. �??�?�¢?? Isaiah 6:3

Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.[/quote]

Numbers are sometimes used in symbolic references. The context usually shows in which sense the number is used. Certain numbers appear often in the Bible in an illustrative, figurative, or symbolic sense, and understanding their significance is key to understanding of the meaning of the text. The number three is one such example. The number three is used at times to represent intensity, emphasis, or added strength. “A threefold cord cannot quickly be torn in two.” (Ec 4:12) Emphasis was achieved in Jesus’ threefold questioning of Peter after Peter’s three denials of Jesus. (Mt 26:34,75, John 21:15-17) The vision telling Peter to eat of all kinds of animals, including those unclean according to the Law, was intensified by being given to him three times. This doubtless made it easier for Peter to understand, when Cornelius and his household accepted the good news, that God was now turning his attention to uncircumcised people of the nations, considered unclean by the Jews. - Ac 10:1-16,28-35, 47, 48.
Before taking the last earthly king of the line of David off the throne, Jehovah said: “A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” Here he emphatically showed there would be no Davidic kings sitting upon the throne at Jerusalem in his name - the throne would be absolutely vacant-until God’s time to establish his Messiah in Kingdom power. (Eze 21:27) The intensity of woes to come to those dwelling on earth is forecast by the triple repetition of the declaration “woe.” - Re 8:13.

God being called Holy three times at Isaiah 6:3 shows the intensity of God’s holiness and cleanness. It in no way shows that God is part of a triune Godhead.

[quote]
The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30).

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22[/quote]

You’re right. When Jesus said that I and the father are one at John 10:30 he was referring to them being united and in agreement. The passage you quoted at John 17:20-23 supports this because he wants his disciple to be one with each other and one with him and his father. This is the same oneness that God said at Genesis 2:24 which states: “That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” Two people - one flesh. Jesus saying that he and the father are one at John 10:30 in no way supports the trinity. Just like the old Army slogan “Army of One” which meant that the thousands of soldiers in the Army function like one single unit, Jesus and God are in complete agreement and harmony with each other so much so that they can be considered one.

I fixed it.

191

Very, very well written mse2us.

192

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Very, very well written mse2us.[/quote]

Yes, well written by very, very wrong.

193

Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)

194

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]

Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:

195

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]

Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church?

196

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]

Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]

I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church? [/quote]

Yes.

197

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church? [/quote]It means he belongs to a church that isn’t necessarily associated in a governmental way with a specific established Christian body commonly known as a “denomination”. It also means, from what I can tell from him here, that the core of what his church believes is also however shared by all orthodox denominations. The reasons behind “why don’t they all get together then?” are pretty involved, but don’t indicate nearly as much division as is commonly represented.

198

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church? [/quote]It means he belongs to a church that isn’t necessarily associated in a governmental way with a specific established Christian body commonly known as a “denomination”. It also means, from what I can tell from him here, that the core of what his church believes is also however shared by all orthodox denominations. The reasons behind “why don’t they all get together then?” are pretty involved, but don’t indicate nearly as much division as is commonly represented.
[/quote]

Well said, but I was patiently waiting for the next question.

199

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church? [/quote]It means he belongs to a church that isn’t necessarily associated in a governmental way with a specific established Christian body commonly known as a “denomination”. It also means, from what I can tell from him here, that the core of what his church believes is also however shared by all orthodox denominations. The reasons behind “why don’t they all get together then?” are pretty involved, but don’t indicate nearly as much division as is commonly represented.
[/quote]

Well said, but I was patiently waiting for the next question.
[/quote]I apologize. See what I get for being impatient.

200

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Zeb, what religion are you? (I figure Christian, but what denomination?)[/quote]Non-denominational Christian. You? Oh that’s right never mind :slight_smile:
[/quote]I looked up what that meant, and didn’t fully understand it. So do you belong to a church? Meaning, do you go to a specific church? [/quote]It means he belongs to a church that isn’t necessarily associated in a governmental way with a specific established Christian body commonly known as a “denomination”. It also means, from what I can tell from him here, that the core of what his church believes is also however shared by all orthodox denominations. The reasons behind “why don’t they all get together then?” are pretty involved, but don’t indicate nearly as much division as is commonly represented.
[/quote]

Well said, but I was patiently waiting for the next question.
[/quote]I apologize. See what I get for being impatient.
[/quote]

Oh, sorry. I wasn’t planning a next question.