[quote]storey420 wrote:
Not to pick on you ZEB but "It makes me wonder why logic has not prevailed. Ask yourself this, if hell does not exist why doesn’t it clearly say something like “do not fear children there is no eternal punishment after death”
Really? You’re pulling the logic card into a religious debate? Neither of your religious beliefs are logical, they are entirely based on faith based around one book.
and to answer the question, if it said that then the MEN that wrote the Bible would have lost one of their best sales pitches when trying to recruit new followers and sway people from their current beliefs. Fear and fear of punishment is one of most religions greatest recruitment tools.[/quote]
Hey pal as long as you jumped in please tell me who you think Jesus Christ was?
I am obsessed with the proper interpretation of scripture, yes. And the only reason I say there is torment is because it is clearly mentioned in various scriptures. Simple. And why is it there? Why does anything have to be there for you to explain away if there was nothing there to begin with? You just can’t answer that can you?
And for the final time they are talking about YOUR BODY returning to the ground. As in ashes to ashes and dust to dust. And all Christians believe this. You are NOT a Christian hence you don’t get it do you?
[/quote]
Don’t tell me what I can or cannot answer. You don’t sound like a student of the Bible when you do that, you sound like a bully at school. Not very becoming of you or anyone for that matter.
However, tell me the meaning of soul please. You are obsessed with proper interpretation, so please provide that (and yes, I have researched it.) I am very comfortable defending any one of my beliefs, rest assured. You are not stumping me, and you are not making me question anything. I have questioned it long before you came along to this forum.
Again, once we have the Greek and Hebrew meaning of soul, I think this whole thing will become a lot clearer to those that have questions.
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.[/quote]
In the beginning you asked me several questions about hell where the word came from etc. I spent much time giving you an answer as I felt it was only fair. We may disagree, but I answered you. Now I’ll ask you again, where did Moses and Elijah come from if they ceased to exist when they died several hundred years before that? I’ve given you my answer now please be so kind as to give me yours.
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.[/quote]
In the beginning you asked me several questions about hell where the word came from etc. I spent much time giving you an answer as I felt it was only fair. We may disagree, but I answered you. Now I’ll ask you again, where did Moses and Elijah come from if they ceased to exist when they died several hundred years before that? I’ve given you my answer now please be so kind as to give me yours.
Thanks.[/quote]
OK, that sounds reasonable. I can do that.
This was a transfiguration, or vision. I could not really be a dream because they both had the same experience. We know they could not be in heaven because Jesus said that no one had gone to heaven.
In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.
The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.[/quote]
In the beginning you asked me several questions about hell where the word came from etc. I spent much time giving you an answer as I felt it was only fair. We may disagree, but I answered you. Now I’ll ask you again, where did Moses and Elijah come from if they ceased to exist when they died several hundred years before that? I’ve given you my answer now please be so kind as to give me yours.
Thanks.[/quote]
OK, that sounds reasonable. I can do that.
This was a transfiguration, or vision. I could not really be a dream because they both had the same experience. We know they could not be in heaven because Jesus said that no one had gone to heaven.
In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.
The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.
[/quote]
So you don’t think that either of them in any form were really there. Do I have that right? Do you believe that heaven exists?
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.[/quote]
In the beginning you asked me several questions about hell where the word came from etc. I spent much time giving you an answer as I felt it was only fair. We may disagree, but I answered you. Now I’ll ask you again, where did Moses and Elijah come from if they ceased to exist when they died several hundred years before that? I’ve given you my answer now please be so kind as to give me yours.
Thanks.[/quote]
OK, that sounds reasonable. I can do that.
This was a transfiguration, or vision. I could not really be a dream because they both had the same experience. We know they could not be in heaven because Jesus said that no one had gone to heaven.
In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.
The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.
[/quote]
So you don’t think that either of them in any form were really there. Do I have that right? Do you believe that heaven exists?
[/quote]
We absolutely believe that there is a heaven. We also believe that not everyone is going to go there as their “reward”. The Bible also speaks of a paradise on earth, akin to the original conditions that Adam and Eve lived in.
I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.
I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?
[/quote]
And that is fine that you believe that. Just stop with your it-must-be-written-word-for-word mantra you keep going with. Reasoning on the scriptures is a HUGE part of it, but you have to make sure that all scriptures on a subject are looked at and a conclusion drawn that satisfies ALL scriptures. I wanted you to admit that because it was getting pretty ridiculous. So, I don’t knock you for believing they were in heaven based on reasoning, however if a scripture clearly says that they weren’t in heaven, then we must rule out that they were in heaven and see if another conclusion can be drawn that satisfies all scriptures involved. THAT is Bible study.
That being said, if the basic Bible teachings are still being argued, then how can what appears to be a more involved subject be approached with any sort of reconciliation or satisfaction? That is the dilemma we have reached.[/quote]
In the beginning you asked me several questions about hell where the word came from etc. I spent much time giving you an answer as I felt it was only fair. We may disagree, but I answered you. Now I’ll ask you again, where did Moses and Elijah come from if they ceased to exist when they died several hundred years before that? I’ve given you my answer now please be so kind as to give me yours.
Thanks.[/quote]
OK, that sounds reasonable. I can do that.
This was a transfiguration, or vision. I could not really be a dream because they both had the same experience. We know they could not be in heaven because Jesus said that no one had gone to heaven.
In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.
The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.
[/quote]
So you don’t think that either of them in any form were really there. Do I have that right? Do you believe that heaven exists?
[/quote]
We absolutely believe that there is a heaven. We also believe that not everyone is going to go there as their “reward”. The Bible also speaks of a paradise on earth, akin to the original conditions that Adam and Eve lived in.[/quote]
Do you believe that Elijah was taken up into heaven as the Bible states, or do you play twisty turny on that one?
2Kings2 “When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind…”
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Not to pick on you ZEB but "It makes me wonder why logic has not prevailed. Ask yourself this, if hell does not exist why doesn’t it clearly say something like “do not fear children there is no eternal punishment after death”
Really? You’re pulling the logic card into a religious debate? Neither of your religious beliefs are logical, they are entirely based on faith based around one book.
and to answer the question, if it said that then the MEN that wrote the Bible would have lost one of their best sales pitches when trying to recruit new followers and sway people from their current beliefs. Fear and fear of punishment is one of most religions greatest recruitment tools.[/quote]
Hey pal as long as you jumped in please tell me who you think Jesus Christ was?
Thanks.
[/quote]
Jesus Christ was a man, son of God yes but no more a son of God than you or I. Through his travels in his early manhood he learned the techniques of spiritual mastery and harnessed the abilities that we could all have the potential to manifest (healing touch,levitation, etc.) and that people since him have been able to accomplish (really mostly ascetics, monks, yogis, etc. that live away from modern civilization not these false prophet evangelists that dupe feeble minded masses and smack people’s foreheads).
Jesus was an example maybe THE example of what we could all be if we lived as he did and that is what he wanted, not to be worshipped as an idol which is how many do. The Bible has been manipulated by MEN through time because you need a hook line to sell religion. If the message that was preached wasn’t “he is the ONLY way and ONLY through him (and our teachings) can you get to salvation”, well that wouldn’t retain too many followers now would it?
Jesus and his teachings should be studied and admired and he deserve praise for sure but more for his life’s work rather than he is magic and the son of God.
If the message that was preached wasn’t “he is the ONLY way and ONLY through him (and our teachings) can you get to salvation”, well that wouldn’t retain too many followers now would it?
Jesus and his teachings should be studied and admired and he deserve praise for sure but more for his life’s work rather than he is magic and the son of God.[/quote]
Do you believe that Elijah was taken up into heaven as the Bible states, or do you play twisty turny on that one?
2Kings2 “When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind…”
[/quote]
Really? You still wish to be contentious huh? (Ga 5:19-21) Either way, the answer is very simple, if you are willing to accept it. Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. That is a statement of fact you keep fighting against for some reason.
So now we have this scripture at 2 Kings 2:11
“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
and another translation of the same scripture:
“And it came to pass as they went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.”
Looks to me like some could say there is a contradiction in the scriptures right? I mean, one says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus and one says that Elijah went up by whirlwind into “the heavens”. Two things to consider. One is the heavens that they are talking about. Elijah was carried up in a windstorm. A windstorm has physical elements and those same elements would not exist in heaven. The heavens listed here is the same heavens listed in Genesis chapter 1:6-8. The second is that Elijah was still alive and active in Judah as a prophet at least 5 years after this instance. He didn’t die. And as the Bible tells us at 1 Cor 15:50
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
[quote]storey420 wrote:
Really? You’re pulling the logic card into a religious debate? Neither of your religious beliefs are logical, they are entirely based on faith based around one book.
[/quote]
Do you believe that Elijah was taken up into heaven as the Bible states, or do you play twisty turny on that one?
2Kings2 “When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind…”
[/quote]
Really? You still wish to be contentious huh? (Ga 5:19-21) Either way, the answer is very simple, if you are willing to accept it. Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. That is a statement of fact you keep fighting against for some reason.
So now we have this scripture at 2 Kings 2:11
“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
and another translation of the same scripture:
“And it came to pass as they went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.”
Looks to me like some could say there is a contradiction in the scriptures right? I mean, one says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus and one says that Elijah went up by whirlwind into “the heavens”. Two things to consider. One is the heavens that they are talking about. Elijah was carried up in a windstorm. A windstorm has physical elements and those same elements would not exist in heaven. The heavens listed here is the same heavens listed in Genesis chapter 1:6-8. The second is that Elijah was still alive and active in Judah as a prophet at least 5 years after this instance. He didn’t die. And as the Bible tells us at 1 Cor 15:50
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Yes, PERISHABLE flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus’ body was transformed into an imperishable physical body, just like ours will be when we enter God’s kingdom one day.
Do you believe that Elijah was taken up into heaven as the Bible states, or do you play twisty turny on that one?
2Kings2 “When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind…”
[/quote]
Really? You still wish to be contentious huh? (Ga 5:19-21) Either way, the answer is very simple, if you are willing to accept it. Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. That is a statement of fact you keep fighting against for some reason.
So now we have this scripture at 2 Kings 2:11
“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
and another translation of the same scripture:
“And it came to pass as they went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.”
Looks to me like some could say there is a contradiction in the scriptures right? I mean, one says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus and one says that Elijah went up by whirlwind into “the heavens”. Two things to consider. One is the heavens that they are talking about. Elijah was carried up in a windstorm. A windstorm has physical elements and those same elements would not exist in heaven. The heavens listed here is the same heavens listed in Genesis chapter 1:6-8. The second is that Elijah was still alive and active in Judah as a prophet at least 5 years after this instance. He didn’t die. And as the Bible tells us at 1 Cor 15:50
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Yes, PERISHABLE flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus’ body was transformed into an imperishable physical body, just like ours will be when we enter God’s kingdom one day.[/quote]
Not sure where you are getting that from. What do you mean “imperishable” flesh? What does that mean? What is your scriptural basis?
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
ZEB. You carry with you a lot of either a) built up anger toward me as an individual or towards my religion in general or b) very closed-minded view points. Either way, I am very aware that you are most likely not going to change your view on this matter.[/quote]
Anger? Not anger, just disgust. A nice guy like yourself has been sucked into believing that there is no hell. It makes me wonder why logic has not prevailed. Ask yourself this, if hell does not exist why doesn’t it clearly say something like “do not fear children there is no eternal punishment after death”. There is ample opportunity but there is nothing like that in the Bible. You have to take every reference to hell in the Bible and twist it and turn it until it fits the mold of your religion. I feel sorry for you because you’ve been deceived. But, no anger on my part, none at all.
Yes, you’re all just like Jesus (eye roll). Jesus also went door to door taking advantage of those who are alone in life or the elderly. Your “religion” disgusts me. And I pity you from the bottom of my heart. The thousands of Bible scholars who are experts in ancient Hebrew and Greek are wrong and you and your “religion” are right. That’s what you want everyone to believe. You want everyone to disregard what they are seeing with their own eyes and believe what you are telling them. And what you are telling them is nonsense my friend, pure nonsense! It would be funny if it were not so very, very sad.
I’ve posted the correct version of the words for hades, hell and the rest. You will believe what you want. But I hope and pray that no one is deceived by this blasphemous absolute foolishness.
LIES OF THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES
JW’s believe that Christ was NOT the son of God but an Angel. Hence, in their doctrine there is no trinity. This is directly in contrast to many scriptures in the Bible as Jesus was with God from the beginning. Hence, they do not believe in the trinity.
They believe that the soul is not immortal. They want us to believe that when you die there is no life, you just disapear. This is in direct contrast to what the Bible teaches.
Early JW prophets taught the end of the world in 1925 and then again in 1975. After the first failed prediction they lost over half of their members.
They teach that there is no hell even though there is over 100 mentions of hell in the Bible. AND these mentions have been correctly interpreted by Bible scholars who speak both ancient Hebrew and Greek.
They believe that Jesus Christ returned to earth in 1914 and secretly talked to their leaders, in private of course.
That salvation is only found by becoming a JW.
That Satan is the author of the doctrine of the trinity.
They do not believe in the omnipresence of God.
They do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.
They do not believe that all who accept Jesus Christ as their savior will reach heaven.
I could go on but this is enough. If any of this sounds nutty to you then you’re thinking clearly. Many call this a cult. But I think it’s actually more dangerous than they typical cult. I think this organization leads people astray from Gods holy word and is dangerous to their eternal salvation.
I enjoy debating the finer points of Christianity with other Christian religions which Jehovah Witnesses are surely NOT. I urge you to see the truth and run don’t walk away from this absolute pack of lies that you’ve been indoctrinated into before it’s too late.
Zeb
[/quote]
Jesus is the son of Jehovah the most high god John 3:16 For god loved the world so much that he sent his only begoten son in order for everyone exercising faith in him might not have be destroyed buy have everlasting life. So to get everlasting life you need to believe jesus is his son.
But before he came to earth he was the archangel michael: The Lord [Jesus] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangels voice and with Gods trumpet. 1Â Thessalonians 4:16 Also Jesus himself said he was alive long before abraham John 8:42-59
The soul is not immortal Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son to me they belong. The soul that is sinning it itself will die.
First we have no prophets but your right some people have tried to guess when the end will come but there are only 2 people that know when it will come Jehovah and Jesus
Hades is where we all go but if you believe that god wants to punish the wrong doers job 34:10 therefore, you men of heart listen to me. far be it from the true god to wickedly and the almighty to act unjustly. What kind of god would sentence a person to unending torment, with no hope of release? We dont worship the same god because my god is a god of love who gave his only begoten son for us.
Jesus is a spirit in heaven and he has not visited anyone.
Salavation is given thru god we only try to follow his word.
The trinity is a bablonian doctrine which is a histrocal fact. No where in the bible does it say god jesus and the holy spirit are one. Jehovah himself said this is my son the beloved during the transfiguration. Jesus always said what he taught was not from him but from god. So if he didnt teach of his own thoughts how are they one person?
Jesus was resurected as a spirit but made a body to appear to his discples. Just like the angels that had a lust for women before the flood.
Not everyone is going to heaven. Jesus said he had a little flock who would be king and priests
rev 14:1-10 rev 7:1-8 but jesus also had another group a crowd that no one could number rev 7:9 would live on the earth rev 7:13-17
Hope that helps but i have a question… the law of moses at exodus 20:4-5 says not to worship any idol of heaven earth or sea and 1 cor 10:7 says the same why do christian bow down before the cross?
Do you believe that Elijah was taken up into heaven as the Bible states, or do you play twisty turny on that one?
2Kings2 “When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind…”
[/quote]
Really? You still wish to be contentious huh? (Ga 5:19-21) Either way, the answer is very simple, if you are willing to accept it. Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. That is a statement of fact you keep fighting against for some reason.
So now we have this scripture at 2 Kings 2:11
“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
and another translation of the same scripture:
“And it came to pass as they went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens.”
Looks to me like some could say there is a contradiction in the scriptures right? I mean, one says that no one has gone to heaven before Jesus and one says that Elijah went up by whirlwind into “the heavens”. Two things to consider. One is the heavens that they are talking about. Elijah was carried up in a windstorm. A windstorm has physical elements and those same elements would not exist in heaven. The heavens listed here is the same heavens listed in Genesis chapter 1:6-8. The second is that Elijah was still alive and active in Judah as a prophet at least 5 years after this instance. He didn’t die. And as the Bible tells us at 1 Cor 15:50
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
Yes, PERISHABLE flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but Jesus’ body was transformed into an imperishable physical body, just like ours will be when we enter God’s kingdom one day.[/quote]
Keep in mind when you are talking to Honest_lifter you are talking to someone who thinks Jesus Christ is a created being, an Angel and NOT the son of God. So…
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
i have a question… the law of moses at exodus 20:4-5 says not to worship any idol of heaven earth or sea and 1 cor 10:7 says the same why do christian bow down before the cross?[/quote]
Not all Christians do that it’s mainly a Catholic practice. Brother Chris would be able to answer this better than I, but I think it is merely a tradition rooted in a sign of respect, nothing more.
Keep in mind when you are talking to Honest_lifter you are talking to someone who thinks Jesus Christ is a created being, an Angel and NOT the son of God. So…[/quote]
Nope, again, he IS the son of God. Not God. The whole Bible says God’s Son God’s Son God’s Son and yet you take that to read “God the Son”.
Go read the Trinity thread and disprove me there. No one else did. The trinity is not a Bible teaching.
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
i have a question… the law of moses at exodus 20:4-5 says not to worship any idol of heaven earth or sea and 1 cor 10:7 says the same why do christian bow down before the cross?[/quote]
Not all Christians do that it’s mainly a Catholic practice. Brother Chris would be able to answer this better than I, but I think it is merely a tradition rooted in a sign of respect, nothing more.[/quote]
Like the pharisees and sadducees there traditions where put before the word of the most high god. All might not bow dow before the cross but you have it in your churchs and homes and around your necks. That is still idolatry.
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
i have a question… the law of moses at exodus 20:4-5 says not to worship any idol of heaven earth or sea and 1 cor 10:7 says the same why do christian bow down before the cross?[/quote]
Not all Christians do that it’s mainly a Catholic practice. Brother Chris would be able to answer this better than I, but I think it is merely a tradition rooted in a sign of respect, nothing more.[/quote]
Like the pharisees and sadducees there traditions where put before the word of the most high god. All might not bow dow before the cross but you have it in your churchs and homes and around your necks. That is still idolatry.
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Hey relax - I was just trying to explain why I thought the Catholics bow at the cross.