Jehovah's Witness Q & A

[quote]honest_lifter

Recap: Hades, or Sheol, is the common grave of mankind and is not a place of torment as some believe.[/quote]

For the third time:

My answer: There are three words translated as “hell” in various English versions: Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna. Hades seems to be a reference to the intermediate state of people prior to the Judgment while the one place in which tartarus is used (2 Peter 2:4) seems to be referring to an intermediate state of wicked angels. Gehenna, which is compounded from two Hebrew words ge and Hinnom, literally means “valley of Hinnom.”

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

When the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump, fires burned there continually. It is thus not surprising that the words unquenchable fire, eternal fire and furnace of fire are associated with the usage of the word gehenna.

In the New Testament, that compound word “Gehenna” is used 12 times. Eleven of those references are in statements of Jesus. In all 12 instances, the words refers to punishment in the future yet to come. Thus, the word “hell” in the sense of Gehenna refers to the final punishment of evil angels and impenitent human beings.

The terms used in Scripture to express the idea of future punishment have a great deal of the figurative about them. Perhaps the most horrifying thing about the idea of hell is the banishment from God’s presence that is indicated in Matthew 25:41. To be banished from God is to be forever separated from all good.

In terms of hell being eternal, we have to look carefully at the word “everlasting” or “eternal” used in Matthew 18:8. The parallel passage in Mark 9:43-44 adds some additional phrases of explanation. The phrase “eternal damnation” is also used in Mark 3:29. There’s also the use of the words “eternal” or “everlasting” in Matthew 25:31-46.

Hell is called “outer darkness” by Jesus (Matthew 8:21 22 13; 25:30). Since light and darkness symbolize good and evil, outer darkness would then be absolute evil.
Some people protest that a good God could never send people to hell. That objection to the existence of hell is answered by Jesus scathing question in Matthew 23:33: “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?”

In at least three places in the New Testament, the phrase outer darkness is followed by the clause “there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” So, clearly, this outer darkness is not a place of unconsciousness or annihilation ad the confused JW would have you believe, but of conscious remorse and suffering.

Among the terms that Paul uses are “death” (thanatos) and “destruction” (apoleia, olethros). As Paul uses them, those words are qualitative rather than temporal terms. The Watchtower publication often appeals to Vine’s Expository Dictionary of the New Testament as an authority. Do you know what Vine says about Paul’s use of “apoleia,” the word often translated “destruction”? Vine says that “apoleia” (or destruction) as used in Romans 9:22 and Philippians 3:19 means “loss of well being, not of being.” Thus, when Paul speaks of “destruction” he does not mean “annihilation.” Indeed, Paul explains that he is talking about “exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Nowhere do Old or New Testament writings say that a human’s final end is total extinction. As I have noted, the New Testament warns that a person may be destroyed (or rather self-destroyed). However, this does not mean annihilation. When a watch gets smashed, it may be destroyed as a watch, but it does not vanish. In its ruined state, that watch is still a watch, even though it is a sad contrast to what it was designed to be. When Jesus taught that "whoever wishes to save his life shall destroy (apolesis) it (Mark 8:35), He did not mean that one would thus vanish. How silly to think such things.

Some have argued that “aionios” which is commonly translated “everlasting” or “eternal” means only “of the ages” and does not necessarily contain the sense of “without end.” However, while this Greek term is used seven times of the future punishment of the wicked, it is used some 51 times of the future happiness of the redeemed. So, if you say that the future punishment of the impenitent is terminated by annihilation, then you have undercut the Biblical argument for everlasting life for the righteous (since the same word is used to say that both the punishment are the reward are “everlasting”.

This is what the experts who study scripture for a living believe. They are experts in ancient Hebrew and also the Greek language. And this is what makes sense to me after careful examination. That you feel you can twist the scripture to suit your needs is not only an insult to every Christian alive, but when you do this you also insult my intelligence as you THINK you know better than those who have dedicated a life time in the study of the Christian Bible. I think they have a pretty good handle on the Bible and the meaning of Hell and Hades.

PS: Tell me where the fallen angels are being held? How do you twist, turn and change the meaning of the passages in Jude and Peter on this one?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Just about every major staple of your religion is wrong. You guys never take anything in the Bible as truth. You read it and twist it turn it and then change it into something that it is not meant to be. Just as I said earlier, if there is no hell (even though it’s clearly mentioned over 100 times in the Bible) then why isn’t there clear scripture that says “there is no hell, no punishment after you die” or words to that effect?

[/quote]

Seriously?? Read my posts please. If you are going to comment in this thread it is only polite to read the posts of others before posting accusatory comments.

“…then why isn’t there clear scripture that says ‘there is no hell, no punishment after you die’ or words to that effect?”

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ec 3:19,20
“For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”

Ps 146:4
“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.”

(NOTE: those are all from earlier posts)

Now for one that shows that sinning doesn’t getting you punished beyond death:

1 Cor 15:56

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

Gen 3:19

“By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Romans 5:12

“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

Rom 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Just about every major staple of your religion is wrong. You guys never take anything in the Bible as truth. You read it and twist it turn it and then change it into something that it is not meant to be. Just as I said earlier, if there is no hell (even though it’s clearly mentioned over 100 times in the Bible) then why isn’t there clear scripture that says “there is no hell, no punishment after you die” or words to that effect?

[/quote]

Seriously?? Read my posts please. If you are going to comment in this thread it is only polite to read the posts of others before posting accusatory comments.

“…then why isn’t there clear scripture that says ‘there is no hell, no punishment after you die’ or words to that effect?”

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ec 3:19,20
“For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”

Ps 146:4
“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.”

(NOTE: those are all from earlier posts)

Now for one that shows that sinning doesn’t getting you punished beyond death:

1 Cor 15:56

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

Gen 3:19

“By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Romans 5:12

“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

Rom 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[/quote]

Not one NOT ONE of those passages says “there is no eternal punishment”. Some refer to a physical death, some to a separation of God. But why isn’t it clear if there is no hell? Where is the scripture that simply says “there is no eternal punishment”? Why isn’t it there? Why do you always have to twist and turn to get what you want out of the scriptures?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.
[/quote]

Please don’t tell me that you don’t understand. What are words? And what context do we use them? If I write a letter to a former friend and say “you suck”. Do you think that 2000 years later (as if anyone would care) someone will say this man that Zeb communicated with apparently used his mouth to inhale things? NO they have to first understand the vernacular of the day - Suck means bad- Simple. They used words descriptively to mean certain things. If one word meant a deep dark valley where there were nasty things. That word was used for hell. You are no smarter in your interpretation of words than the example of someone not understanding how we used the word "suck’ in 2010. I just can’t believe that you buy into this JW nonsense. SHEESH there is great deception out there----

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Just about every major staple of your religion is wrong. You guys never take anything in the Bible as truth. You read it and twist it turn it and then change it into something that it is not meant to be. Just as I said earlier, if there is no hell (even though it’s clearly mentioned over 100 times in the Bible) then why isn’t there clear scripture that says “there is no hell, no punishment after you die” or words to that effect?

[/quote]

Seriously?? Read my posts please. If you are going to comment in this thread it is only polite to read the posts of others before posting accusatory comments.

“…then why isn’t there clear scripture that says ‘there is no hell, no punishment after you die’ or words to that effect?”

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ec 3:19,20
“For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”

Ps 146:4
“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.”

(NOTE: those are all from earlier posts)

Now for one that shows that sinning doesn’t getting you punished beyond death:

1 Cor 15:56

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

Gen 3:19

“By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Romans 5:12

“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

Rom 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[/quote]

Not one NOT ONE of those passages says “there is no eternal punishment”. Some refer to a physical death, some to a separation of God. But why isn’t it clear if there is no hell? Where is the scripture that simply says “there is no eternal punishment”? Why isn’t it there? Why do you always have to twist and turn to get what you want out of the scriptures?[/quote]

Show me the scripture that says the Jesus is God.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.
[/quote]

They were there with God and Jesus and they came from heaven. They obviously didn’t disappear as the JW believe - Do you think maybe that YOU have misinterpreted a part of scripture here? Do you think just maybe?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.
[/quote]

Please don’t tell me that you don’t understand. What are words? And what context do we use them? If I write a letter to a former friend and say “you suck”. Do you think that 2000 years later (as if anyone would care) someone will say this man that Zeb communicated with apparently used his mouth to inhale things? NO they have to first understand the vernacular of the day - Suck means bad- Simple. They used words descriptively to mean certain things. If one word meant a deep dark valley where there were nasty things. That word was used for hell. You are no smarter in your interpretation of words than the example of someone not understanding how we used the word "suck’ in 2010. I just can’t believe that you buy into this JW nonsense. SHEESH there is great deception out there----[/quote]

How did you reach your conclusion. You say that the burning of children to a false god is the base for the punishment after death. I showed scriptures how YHWH for that discusting. How did you reach your conclusion? You say you just read the scriptures plain and simple. Well give me the scriptures plain and simple. (and really? using “suck” as a 2010 vernacular is your way of explaining a point? and I twist things?)

edit: and that word there was Gehenna, not hell. None of the scriptures you listed there showed hell. None of them. So how are you making this connection? You say you base all your beliefs on the scriptures, yet those don’t say hell.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.
[/quote]

They were there with God and Jesus and they came from heaven. They obviously didn’t disappear as the JW believe - Do you think maybe that YOU have misinterpreted a part of scripture here? Do you think just maybe?[/quote]

Where does it say they came from heaven? You say you base you beliefs on the scripture. Where does it say they came from heaven?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Just about every major staple of your religion is wrong. You guys never take anything in the Bible as truth. You read it and twist it turn it and then change it into something that it is not meant to be. Just as I said earlier, if there is no hell (even though it’s clearly mentioned over 100 times in the Bible) then why isn’t there clear scripture that says “there is no hell, no punishment after you die” or words to that effect?

[/quote]

Seriously?? Read my posts please. If you are going to comment in this thread it is only polite to read the posts of others before posting accusatory comments.

“…then why isn’t there clear scripture that says ‘there is no hell, no punishment after you die’ or words to that effect?”

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

Genesis 2:17

“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ec 3:19,20
“For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.”

Ps 146:4
“When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.”

(NOTE: those are all from earlier posts)

Now for one that shows that sinning doesn’t getting you punished beyond death:

1 Cor 15:56

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

Gen 3:19

“By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Romans 5:12

“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

Rom 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[/quote]

Not one NOT ONE of those passages says “there is no eternal punishment”. Some refer to a physical death, some to a separation of God. But why isn’t it clear if there is no hell? Where is the scripture that simply says “there is no eternal punishment”? Why isn’t it there? Why do you always have to twist and turn to get what you want out of the scriptures?[/quote]

You do understand, don’t you, that there is a hell? Jesus was in it. Don’t you recall? We are talking about what hell is, not whether or not it exists.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.
[/quote]

Please don’t tell me that you don’t understand. What are words? And what context do we use them? If I write a letter to a former friend and say “you suck”. Do you think that 2000 years later (as if anyone would care) someone will say this man that Zeb communicated with apparently used his mouth to inhale things? NO they have to first understand the vernacular of the day - Suck means bad- Simple. They used words descriptively to mean certain things. If one word meant a deep dark valley where there were nasty things. That word was used for hell. You are no smarter in your interpretation of words than the example of someone not understanding how we used the word "suck’ in 2010. I just can’t believe that you buy into this JW nonsense. SHEESH there is great deception out there----[/quote]

How did you reach your conclusion. You say that the burning of children to a false god is the base for the punishment after death. I showed scriptures how YHWH for that discusting. How did you reach your conclusion? You say you just read the scriptures plain and simple. Well give me the scriptures plain and simple. (and really? using “suck” as a 2010 vernacular is your way of explaining a point? and I twist things?)

edit: and that word there was Gehenna, not hell. None of the scriptures you listed there showed hell. None of them. So how are you making this connection? You say you base all your beliefs on the scriptures, yet those don’t say hell.[/quote]

And “suck” can only mean draw in liquid with the mouth. Uh huh. You’re saying that because someone was using the word “Ghenna”, or “Tartarosas” that there is no hell. When what they were doing was using the best word that they had at the time to explain what was in store for those who were going to suffer eternal torment.

Yes Ghenna was a place on earth where some made horrible sacrifices were made, a place of abomination. And a receptacle for filth, garbage and perpetual fires burning to destroy such garbage and keep rodents away. A horrible place indeed and maybe, just maybe the most horrible place on earth at the time. Tell me what better word could they have used to describe eternal torment? Were they supposed to make up a word? And if they did make up a word you would be saying that “they just made it up”.

And why even mention such a place if there were no torment involved? Once again, why not simply say “there is no eternal torment you just vanish”?

Tell me.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.
[/quote]

They were there with God and Jesus and they came from heaven. They obviously didn’t disappear as the JW believe - Do you think maybe that YOU have misinterpreted a part of scripture here? Do you think just maybe?[/quote]

Where does it say they came from heaven? You say you base you beliefs on the scripture. Where does it say they came from heaven?
[/quote]

Why don’t you tell me then how two people who were supposed to VANISH after death were still there hundreds of years later? That blows a hole in your theory that the soul vanishes after the body dies. Even if they came from hell (which you don’t think exists) they were still there speaking with Jesus hundreds of years after their bodies died.

So it matters not where they came from, the fact that they were there disproves your JW theories doesn’t it?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.
[/quote]

Please don’t tell me that you don’t understand. What are words? And what context do we use them? If I write a letter to a former friend and say “you suck”. Do you think that 2000 years later (as if anyone would care) someone will say this man that Zeb communicated with apparently used his mouth to inhale things? NO they have to first understand the vernacular of the day - Suck means bad- Simple. They used words descriptively to mean certain things. If one word meant a deep dark valley where there were nasty things. That word was used for hell. You are no smarter in your interpretation of words than the example of someone not understanding how we used the word "suck’ in 2010. I just can’t believe that you buy into this JW nonsense. SHEESH there is great deception out there----[/quote]

How did you reach your conclusion. You say that the burning of children to a false god is the base for the punishment after death. I showed scriptures how YHWH for that discusting. How did you reach your conclusion? You say you just read the scriptures plain and simple. Well give me the scriptures plain and simple. (and really? using “suck” as a 2010 vernacular is your way of explaining a point? and I twist things?)

edit: and that word there was Gehenna, not hell. None of the scriptures you listed there showed hell. None of them. So how are you making this connection? You say you base all your beliefs on the scriptures, yet those don’t say hell.[/quote]

And “suck” can only mean draw in liquid with the mouth. Uh huh. You’re saying that because someone was using the word “Ghenna”, or “Tartarosas” that there is no hell. When what they were doing was using the best word that they had at the time to explain what was in store for those who were going to suffer eternal torment.

Yes Ghenna was a place on earth where some made horrible sacrifices were made, a place of abomination. And a receptacle for filth, garbage and perpetual fires burning to destroy such garbage and keep rodents away. A horrible place indeed and maybe, just maybe the most horrible place on earth at the time. Tell me what better word could they have used to describe eternal torment? Were they supposed to make up a word? And if they did make up a word you would be saying that “they just made it up”.

And why even mention such a place if there were no torment involved? Once again, why not simply say “there is no eternal torment you just vanish”?

Tell me.

[/quote]

“why mention such place is there were no torment involved?” REALLY think about what you are saying. Why does torment have to be involved? You are obsessed with their being torment after death! Dead bodies don’t feel torment (this is what allllll those scriptures I brought up discuss), and that is what that place was used for, total destruction of waste and dead bodies. THAT is what Jesus was getting at.

And before you start talking about living human sacrifices made there, look back at my post about Gehenna. I address why that would not be the case.

“why not simply say there is no eternal torment, you simply vanish?” The scriptures do say that. They say when you die, you return to the ground. The ONLY way those scriptures I brought up don’t fit your prerequisites, is if you go to a fiery torment while you are still living, because what happens when you die is very clearly mentioned in the Bible.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.
[/quote]

They were there with God and Jesus and they came from heaven. They obviously didn’t disappear as the JW believe - Do you think maybe that YOU have misinterpreted a part of scripture here? Do you think just maybe?[/quote]

Where does it say they came from heaven? You say you base you beliefs on the scripture. Where does it say they came from heaven?
[/quote]

Why don’t you tell me then how two people who were supposed to VANISH after death were still there hundreds of years later? That blows a hole in your theory that the soul vanishes after the body dies. Even if they came from hell (which you don’t think exists) they were still there speaking with Jesus hundreds of years after their bodies died.

So it matters not where they came from, the fact that they were there disproves your JW theories doesn’t it?
[/quote]

You said they were in heaven and that you get allll your doctrine from the Bible, didn’t you? Now, don’t turn this on me and my religion. You tell me why you said they were in heaven. Because to me, it looks like you used some sort of reasoning on the scriptures instead of using it verbatim. If they were in heaven why didn’t the Bible just simply say “they are in heaven”? (sound familiar)

To those following along:

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses thoughts on hell and fiery torment clear? Are there any questions that need to be addressed?

Not to pick on you ZEB but "It makes me wonder why logic has not prevailed. Ask yourself this, if hell does not exist why doesn’t it clearly say something like “do not fear children there is no eternal punishment after death”

Really? You’re pulling the logic card into a religious debate? Neither of your religious beliefs are logical, they are entirely based on faith based around one book.

and to answer the question, if it said that then the MEN that wrote the Bible would have lost one of their best sales pitches when trying to recruit new followers and sway people from their current beliefs. Fear and fear of punishment is one of most religions greatest recruitment tools.

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Hinnom thus originally was a name for a valley just southeast of Jerusalem. That’s the valley where children were sacrificed to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). Josiah, in his effort to stamp out idolatry, turned the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) into a dump for burning trash and the disposal of unclean corpses (2 Kings 23:10). It was also the place where the bodies of those slain in the destruction of Jerusalem were thrown (Isaiah 66:24 and Jeremiah 7:32). It thus became associated in the prophetic writings with the place of judgment and doom. In the New Testament, gehenna is no longer identified with the Valley of Hinnom. It now simply means eternal punishment.

[/quote]

Don’t just repost. And this paragraph ^^^^ needs more backing ESPECIALLY the last two sentences. The first part is stating fact so you have backing, and then you just throw 2 sentences on at the end to make some “leap of faith” connection. Don’t talk about a million different points. Pin yourself down to one. Get this right first. YHWH was completely against the burning of children in the fire.
[/quote]

Please don’t tell me that you don’t understand. What are words? And what context do we use them? If I write a letter to a former friend and say “you suck”. Do you think that 2000 years later (as if anyone would care) someone will say this man that Zeb communicated with apparently used his mouth to inhale things? NO they have to first understand the vernacular of the day - Suck means bad- Simple. They used words descriptively to mean certain things. If one word meant a deep dark valley where there were nasty things. That word was used for hell. You are no smarter in your interpretation of words than the example of someone not understanding how we used the word "suck’ in 2010. I just can’t believe that you buy into this JW nonsense. SHEESH there is great deception out there----[/quote]

How did you reach your conclusion. You say that the burning of children to a false god is the base for the punishment after death. I showed scriptures how YHWH for that discusting. How did you reach your conclusion? You say you just read the scriptures plain and simple. Well give me the scriptures plain and simple. (and really? using “suck” as a 2010 vernacular is your way of explaining a point? and I twist things?)

edit: and that word there was Gehenna, not hell. None of the scriptures you listed there showed hell. None of them. So how are you making this connection? You say you base all your beliefs on the scriptures, yet those don’t say hell.[/quote]

And “suck” can only mean draw in liquid with the mouth. Uh huh. You’re saying that because someone was using the word “Ghenna”, or “Tartarosas” that there is no hell. When what they were doing was using the best word that they had at the time to explain what was in store for those who were going to suffer eternal torment.

Yes Ghenna was a place on earth where some made horrible sacrifices were made, a place of abomination. And a receptacle for filth, garbage and perpetual fires burning to destroy such garbage and keep rodents away. A horrible place indeed and maybe, just maybe the most horrible place on earth at the time. Tell me what better word could they have used to describe eternal torment? Were they supposed to make up a word? And if they did make up a word you would be saying that “they just made it up”.

And why even mention such a place if there were no torment involved? Once again, why not simply say “there is no eternal torment you just vanish”?

Tell me.

[/quote]

“why mention such place is there were no torment involved?” REALLY think about what you are saying. Why does torment have to be involved? You are obsessed with their being torment after death! Dead bodies don’t feel torment (this is what allllll those scriptures I brought up discuss), and that is what that place was used for, total destruction of waste and dead bodies. THAT is what Jesus was getting at.

And before you start talking about living human sacrifices made there, look back at my post about Gehenna. I address why that would not be the case.

“why not simply say there is no eternal torment, you simply vanish?” The scriptures do say that. They say when you die, you return to the ground. The ONLY way those scriptures I brought up don’t fit your prerequisites, is if you go to a fiery torment while you are still living, because what happens when you die is very clearly mentioned in the Bible.

[/quote]

I am obsessed with the proper interpretation of scripture, yes. And the only reason I say there is torment is because it is clearly mentioned in various scriptures. Simple. And why is it there? Why does anything have to be there for you to explain away if there was nothing there to begin with? You just can’t answer that can you?

And for the final time they are talking about YOUR BODY returning to the ground. As in ashes to ashes and dust to dust. And all Christians believe this. You are NOT a Christian hence you don’t get it do you?

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Where did Moses and Elijah come from when they spoke with Jesus? If they disappeared when they died how did Jesus Talk to them? And if they did not come from heaven to speak with him in person who come we heard Gods voice at that place and time?[/quote]

Good, you are asking question. I think you are trying to stump me, but in actuality, this is how we are to examine the scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

Acts 17:11

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So Jesus said that no one was in heaven before him. Period. That we have discussed. So what could this scripture be telling us with that thought in mind? (this is how research happens. Start with known facts, and then figure out how the rest would fit in.) No one starts with calculus and then because it seems to contradict basic algebra, says that the algebra is wrong. Algebra is the base and so you build off of that.
[/quote]

They were there with God and Jesus and they came from heaven. They obviously didn’t disappear as the JW believe - Do you think maybe that YOU have misinterpreted a part of scripture here? Do you think just maybe?[/quote]

Where does it say they came from heaven? You say you base you beliefs on the scripture. Where does it say they came from heaven?
[/quote]

Why don’t you tell me then how two people who were supposed to VANISH after death were still there hundreds of years later? That blows a hole in your theory that the soul vanishes after the body dies. Even if they came from hell (which you don’t think exists) they were still there speaking with Jesus hundreds of years after their bodies died.

So it matters not where they came from, the fact that they were there disproves your JW theories doesn’t it?
[/quote]

You said they were in heaven and that you get allll your doctrine from the Bible, didn’t you? Now, don’t turn this on me and my religion. You tell me why you said they were in heaven. Because to me, it looks like you used some sort of reasoning on the scriptures instead of using it verbatim. If they were in heaven why didn’t the Bible just simply say “they are in heaven”? (sound familiar)[/quote]

I believe that they came from heaven as we read of God’s voice speaking when they were finished. Simple. But maybe I’m wrong I am not a Bible scholar. Now let’s hear your opinion of where they came from and how they came to be there since according to your religion they should have simply vanished upon their bodily death hundreds of years before that.

I gave you my explanation now let’s hear yours. Fair?