[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
you must then turn it into money, and you must wrap the money up in your hand and travel to the place that Jehovah your God will choose. You must also give the money for whatever your soul may crave in the way of cattle and sheep and goats and wine and intoxicating liquor and anything that your soul may ask of you; and you must eat there before Jehovah your God and rejoice, you and your household.
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
For someone who claims to be a follower of Jesus’ teachings, you are quite a haughty person.[/quote]
And for someone who claims to be a Christian you are…oh that’s right you don’t claim to be a Christian you’re in a cult. That sucks huh?
Yeah, cool how we co-Opted the pagan holidays and made them Christian holidays. Kudos to us right? Oh that’s right you don’t like that hmm…Maybe we should talk about it endlessly page after page? No, we already did that. I dunno I’m fresh out of ideas. You?
…CHRIST IS ONLY AN ANGEL!!
Sorry sometimes I break out into crazy JW comments…I don’t mean them. But you do AHHHHHHH…
[/quote]
Correct, you are sharing celebrations with pagan religions. There is no need for endless debate. There is no need for any debate, really. [/quote]
You say “sharing” because part of your mission is to denigrate the Christian faith. But if millions of Christians are worshiping Jesus Christ (as the only son of God by the way) on Christmas day I think we’ve (Christians) won that one. But feel free to continue to degrade the Christian faith it’s what you guys do best.
Remove Hell, lower Jesus Christ’s stature…yeah you guys are a cult and a pretty evil one at that.
[/quote]
matthew 28:18-20 18�??�?� And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: �?�¢??All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19�??�?� Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20�??�?� teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.�?�¢??
[/quote]
So, God gave Jesus all authority…ALL Authority both in heaven and on the earth? So, basically he has the authorities of God…yet is not God. That is one and the same interesting and contradictory. And this verse doesn’t say when Jesus was given that authority.
I’ll leave you with another verse, “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”
So, the Word, which is Jesus, in the beginning was…he just was…the Word was with God…okay, so Jesus was with God in the beginning…and the Word was a(?) god. So, either there is two Gods or Jesus is God.
Again, This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him…okay, so all things if Jesus is just an Angel how did he come into existence through himself? And If he was created then how could he exist if not even one thin came into existence…apart from him.
Interesting.[/quote]
So explain to me how can jesus be with god and be god?
colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
revelation 3:4 And to the angel of the congregation in Laâ?§oâ?§diâ?§ceâ?²a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.
These 2 verse explain clearly that Jesus was the first creation of Jehovah.
[/quote]
Cor 1:15, first-born: Born of the Father before all ages. The reference here is to the dinve person of the Word. See verse 16.
I am not getting the same translation as you for Rev 3:4, this is what I got: "‘Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sar’dis that did not defile their outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy.’
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
1 Chorithians 8:5 � For even though there are those who are called â??gods,â?? whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many â??godsâ?? and many â??lords"
[/quote]
One God…one Lord: Paul distinguishes the Christian faith from paganism, which venerated man gods, and from Judaism, which declined to accept the messianic Lordship of Jesus. Paul alluds to the monotheistic creed of Deut 6:4, but he applies its two divine titles to two disctinct Persons. “God” is linked with the Father, the divine Source from whom all creation originates, and “Lord” is linked with Christ, the divine Mediator through whom all things were made. This is one of the clearest Pauline passages to assert both the deity and divine activity of Jesus Christ (Col 1:15-17).
By the way, ask any Jew what Deut 6:4 is and they’ll know by heart, “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.”
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil
Luke 4:5-8 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6�??�??�??�?� and the Devil said to him: I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. 7�??�??�??�?� You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours. 8�??�??�??�??�?� In reply Jesus said to him: It is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service
Matthew 4:8-11 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9�??�??�??�??�?� and he said to him: All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me. 10�??�??�??�?� Then Jesus said to him: Go away, Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service. 11�??�??�??�?� Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.
Revelation 2:12-13 And to the angel of the congregation in Pergamum write: These are the things that he says who has the sharp, long two-edged sword, �??�??�??�?� 13 know where you are dwelling, that is, where the throne of Satan is; and yet you keep on holding fast my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of An�??�??�??�?�¢ti�??�??�??�?�¢pas, my witness, the faithful one, who was killed by YOUR side, where Satan is dwelling
Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
How could Satan offer Jesus the kingdoms of the world if he didnt control them? AS Revelation say Satan is here on earth misleading the entire world.
-The Holy Spirit is only available to this one cult
Luke 11:13 Therefore, if YOU, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to YOUR children, how much more so will the Father in heaven give holy spirit to those asking him!
Galatians 5:22-23 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23�??�??�??�??�?� mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law.
As Luke says Jehovah gives Holy Spirit to those asking but you can recgonize those who have it by the fruitage they produce.
-There is no Hell
Revelation 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2�??�??�??�?� And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3�??�??�??�?� And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.
Satan and his demons are confined to the earth not in a hell. Him and is demons will be confined in a pit for a 1000 years then he will be let out for a short time. Then he will be destroyed permanately.
-God is unable to be omnipresent or omniscient
-Omnipresent
1 King 8:49 you must also hear from the heavens, your established place of dwelling, their prayer and their request for favor, and you must execute judgment for them,
Hebrews 9:24 24�??�??�??�??�?� For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.
Isaiah 66:1 This is what Jehovah has said: The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house that YOU people can build for me, and where, then, is the place as a resting-place for me?
Jehovah is in the heaven not every at once.
-Omniscient
Romans 9:10-13 Yet not that case alone, but also when Rebekah conceived twins from the one [man], Isaac our forefather: 11�??�??�??�??�?� for when they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, in order that the purpose of God respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not upon works, but upon the One who calls, 12�??�??�??�??�?� it was said to her: �??�??�??�?�¢??The older will be the slave of the younger.�??�??�??�?�¢?? 13�??�??�??�??�?� Just as it is written: I loved Jacob, but E�??�??�??�?�¢sau I hated.
Ephesians 1:4-5 4�??�??�??�?� just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5�??�??�??�?� For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Yes Jehovah can see everything that has happened and will happen but that doesnt mean he has to use it. Example After creating adam and eve he saw everything was good and rested.If he knew they where going to sin do you think he would have rested? Would he have not stopped Cain from killing Abel who he loved? If Jehovah had foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus�??�??�??�?�¢?? ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of people, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men.
-There is no life after death except for 144,000 select members of this cult
John 10:16-18 And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17�??�??�??�?� This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. 18�??�??�??�?� No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father.
Revelation 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2�??�??�??�?� I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3�??�??�??�?� With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4�??�??�??�?� And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
John 5:25-30 25 Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26�??�??�??�?� For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27�??�??�??�?� And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28�??�??�??�??�?� Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29�??�??�??�??�?� and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. 30�??�??�??�??�?� I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13�??�??�??�?� And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha�??�??�??�?�¢des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds
After Jesus destroys this system of thing,paradise will be restored where the righteous will live forever as well as the dead will be resurrected.
-Jesus second coming happened in (LOL) secret in 1914
Mark 13:8 For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, there will be earthquakes in one place after another, there will be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.
First Thessalonians 5:1-4 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. 2�??�??�??�??�?� For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovahs day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3�??�??�??�??�?� Whenever it is that they are saying: Peace and security then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. 4�??�??�??�?� But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30�??�??�??�?� And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Jesus has not come yet as the scriptures point out. In 1914 Jesus was anoited king in heaven and removed Satan and his demons from heaven which resulted in the first part of the sign at Mark 13:8 nations will rise against nation.
-Jesus Christ is a created being (like an angel) who one time did not exist
Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the congregation in Laodi�??�??�??�?�¢ write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.
John 6:56-57 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57�??�??�??�?� Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.
John 6:42 Jesus said to them: If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth
Just like it says at rev 3:14 Jesus was the beginning of Jehovahs creation.
-Salvation can only be earned by being loyal to this one cult
Revelation 7:10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.
Acts 4:12 Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.
Salavation is thru Jehovah.
-“The first” resurrection occurred in 1918
Revelation 20:4-5 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5�??�??�??�??�?� This is the first resurrection.
As you can see the first resurrection was of those of the 144000 who were dead. Example Peter Matthew Paul Timothy and who ever else was choosen and died. I have no idea of the date but it must have occured shortly after Jesus become king and threw satan to the earth.
-These cultists are not allowed to do any of the following; serve in the military, buy grils scout cookies, celebrate Christimas or Easter, or even their own birthday. Run for political office, vote, serve on a jury, own or wear a cross, donate blood, or accept a blood donation even in an emergency. salute the flag, be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling. They can’t even play Chess!
I have given you the reasons for christmas birthdays and easter, they are pagan holidays incorporated into your religion after 1000 ad. As for the rest…
Blood
Leviticus 3:17 It is a statute to time indefinite for YOUR generations, in all YOUR dwelling places: YOU must not eat any fat or any blood at all.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only its blood you must not eat. Upon the earth you should pour it out as water
Acts 15:29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!
The bible clearly states we must not eat or use blood.
Political
John 17:15 I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16�??�??�??�?� They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
Colossians 2:8-10 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; 9�??�??�??�?� because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. 10�??�??�??�?� And so YOU are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.
Acts 5:29 In answer Peter and the [other] apostles said: We must obey God as ruler rather than men.
We obey all laws but we must obey god.
Violence
Psalms 11:5 Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.
Last one… the cross
1 corinthians 10:14 Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry
Exodus 20:4-5 You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5�??�??�??�??�?� You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me;
Oh btw I enjoy playing chess
[/quote]
Then you better stick to chess and drop this JW nonsense.
Once again these things cannot be justified by anything in the scripture. But you can twist it and turn it until you have rationalized such things. And that is exactly what JW do best.
Now tell us again why you think some of the things that you do?
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil (come on fess up on this one it’s one of the best)
-The Holy Spirit is only available to this one cult
-There is no Hell
-God is unable to be omnipresent or omniscient
-There is no life after death except for 144,000 select members of this cult
-Jesus second coming happened in (LOL) secret in 1914
-Jesus Christ is a created being (like an angel) who one time did not exist
-Salvation can only be earned by being loyal to this one cult
-“The first” resurrection occurred in 1918
-These cultists are not allowed to do any of the following; serve in the military, buy girl scout cookies, celebrate Christmas or Easter, or even their own birthday. Run for political office, vote, serve on a jury, own or wear a cross, donate blood, or accept a blood donation even in an emergency. salute the flag, be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling. They can’t even play Chess!
Come on what did the girl scouts ever do to you? LOL
[/quote]
Nothing by it is training for a military and associated with religion.[/quote]
LOL - The girl scouts are in training for the military? I call bull on that one. And you use that as an excuse to run the other way when the little tykes are selling cookies door to door? One would think that JW’s would have more empathy for those going door to door. No?
By the way what do you have against the military. There is nothing in the Bible, even with your incredible deliberate twisting of the scriptures that claims one cannot support the military.
[/quote]
Why are u so passionate about them?
The BSA’s stated purpose at its incorporation in 1910 was "to teach [boys] patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred values.
Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. 16� And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses: â??Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17� because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?â??
Luke 6:27 â??But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU,
Psalms 46:9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.
The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces;
The wagons he burns in the fire.
John 13:35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.â??
Exodus 20:13 � â??You must not murder.
[/quote]
Certainly no one can twist a scripture as well as you guys. You’ve somehow managed to twist the word of God so out of wack that you’ve eliminated patriotism (Laughing). Now here’s what I want you to do in order to break away from the cult you’re in. Run out today and purchase a box of girl scout cookies. Then salute the flag and encourage a young man to enter into the military.
You must fight hard to do those things that your cult is against if you are ever to break out.
Good Luck!
I’m here if you need me.
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
Zeb if I am twisting scriptures prove it. All Ive seen so far is endless babble. Show me scriptures to back up your claims. You have asked questions and made claims and mse2us, honest_lifter and myself have tried to explain our point of view.
[/quote]
Now you know as well as I do that no one can turn you from your cult on a message board (how silly). To my point: I can say all scissors are bad because Delilah cut Samson’s hair with scissors. I then quote scripture and verse. Then it becomes your job to try to convince me that all scissors are not bad. But they are bad I maintain look what happened to Samson, and IT SAYS SO IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE. Yada, yada, yada… Translate that into boys scouts are bad, patriotism is evil, Jesus Chirst is only an angel, there is no hell we just fade away, the only people going to heaven are 144 chosen JW’s, You won’t celebrate Christiams, Mickey Mantle never really played for the Yankees…You get the idea. Your founders want you to think what you’re thinking and that’s pretty much that. And that is the futility of any Christian trying to unwind the convoluted thinking of a JW. So…I’m not biting.
Even if we were to meet face to face it would still be next to impossible to change your mind. You think what you think for a reason and nothing short of extended deprogramming sessions will cause you to see the light of day.
Certainly, as I said, it will not happen on a bodybuilding forum. As a matter of fact how many minds have you ever seen changed relative to politics or religion on this forum? I rest my case.
However, this is highly entertaining and we each enjoy this forum in a different way. If you don’t like how I am interacting with you I understand and you can ignore me from this point forward. However, I will never (again) launch into a serious scripture for scripture debate debate with a JW as I know how they end.
Now go buy some girl scout cookies you’ll feel better about yourself.
Zeb, it’s so sad to see your lack of Bible knowledge especially when you make statements like the ones you state below. You really need to read the Bible more and ask for God’s holy spirit to help you have a better understanding.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
You think that’s stupid? Here are some things that are really off the wall retarded.
There is a cult that believes the following:
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil[/quote]
Yes Zeb, all earthly governments are under Satan’s control. The Bible makes this clear.
When Jesus comes out of the wilderness after praying for forty days Satan temps him to try to get Jesus to break his integrity. This is stated at Luke 4:5-7:
So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “[i]I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it[/i]. 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”
I’ve quoted this scripture to some and they reasoned that since Satan is a liar then that temptation must be a lie. Sadly, this is the point they miss - it would not be a temptation if all of the kingdoms of the earth were not Satan’s to give. For example, if I said “Zeb I’ll give you ten million dollars if you eat this worm.” If you knew that I didn’t have ten million dollars to give you, you’d say - “mse2us I’m not eating that worm because you don’t even have ten million dollars to give me.” You wouldn’t be tempted one bit. If all of the kingdoms of the earth weren’t Satan’s to give, not only would this not have been recorded in the Bible to show how Jesus maintained his integrity but Jesus would not have been tempted at all.
This isn’t the only passage where this is stated. Again, turning to the Bible, Jesus himself said Satan is the ruler of the world at John 14:30 which states:
“I shall not speak much with you anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming. And he has no hold on me.”
John 12:31 states:
“31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”
John 16:31 states:
“then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.”
The apostle Paul also thought that Satan was the ruler of this world. Paul states this at
2 Corinthians 4:4 which states:
"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."
So did John. John states this at 1 John 5:19 which states:
“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”
Again, the Bible makes it clear that Satan is the ruler or God of this world.
Wrong, God gives his holy spirit to humble, sincere individuals who ask for it regardless of ones religion.
Zeb, show me one scripture that states the punishment for sinning is eternal torment in Hell. I can guarantee you that you won’t be able to find it. On the other had the Bible states at Romans 6:23 that the wages for sinning is dying and at Ecclesiastes 9:5 that the dead are conscious of nothing at all. The penalty that was given to Adam at Genesis 3:19 where it states that he would die and return to dust is the same penalty according to Romans 5:12 that was passed on to all of Adam’s descendants including you and I.
Wrong again, God does have the ability to be know all but according to the Bible it is a power that he does not always choose to use.
Wrong again, according to the Bible at Acts 24:15 even the unrighteous or wicked will be resurrected. Acts 24:15 states:
“and I have hope toward God, which hope these men themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”
Jesus also said at John 5:28 that “all those in the memorial tombs will hear is voice and come out.”
Why is it that even the unrighteous or all those in the grave will come out? It’s because once they die they paid the penalty that they inherited from Adam and God is going to give them a second chance. That’s why it states at Romans 6:7 that “he who has died had been accquited of his sin.”
No, it didn’t happen in secret. As I stated several post ago, we weren’t the ones who figured this out - others did. Jesus presence or coming that Jesus mentions at Matthew 24:3 was not going to be visible to human eyes which is why Jesus gives signs that his disciples were to look to that would identify his presence and the conclusions of the system of things. If his presence or coming was going to be visible to human eyes then one would not need signs to identify this because one would be able to clearly see it. Jesus is now ruling in heaven as king of God’s kingdom that he inherited from his forefather David.
Yes, Jesus is a created being.
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God.”
LOL! Can’t play chess…are you crazy…I love chess and love Girl Scout cookies especially the lemon ones. Yes we do serve on a jury because it is a civic duty and doing so is not a violation of any of God’s laws. What is a violation of God’s commandments is killing or being willing to kill people especially people of the same faith. So of course we don’t serve in the military. Jesus said at John 13:35 that “all will know that you are my true disciples if you have love among yourselves.” If you’re willing to join the military and go to war and kill someone of the same faith which is what happened in the two world wars, you can not have love among yourselves no matter how you spin it. According to the Bible, you are to love your neighbor as yourself, this is impossible if you are willing to go to war and kill your fellow man. Own a cross! Of course not. Praying to any image or viewing an image as sacred is clearly idolatry no matter how you spin it. All of the holidays you mentioned above are from pagan origins - of course we don’t celebrate them. No we don’t salute the flag and pledge our allegiance to our country. We pledge our allegiance to God only. Pledging your allegiance to your country in a ceremonial fashion is taking a solemn oath and doing this shows God that one is promising to pick his or her country over anything else. You can’t pledge your allegiance to two things, especially two things that have in the past and can possibly in the future conflict with each other. Over the past 2000 years there has been many situations where the ruling power tried to suppress or persecute Christians. Take the First Century Christians as an example. During Emperor Nero’s reign he gave the Christians a choice: throw incense into a fire and say “Hail Ceasar” and live or don’t do it and die. The first Century Christians chose death rather than pledge their loyalty to Caesar. We follow their example.
No, we don’t run for political office. When Jesus was on earth he didn’t get involved in the political affairs of that time and when the Jews tried to make him king at John 6:15 he ran away. Jesus said seek first the kingdom and the central theme of Jesus’ ministry was the Kingdom. Zeb, do you know what God’s Kingdom is? I’d bet you don’t. Danial 2:44 explains what God’s Kingdom is and what it is going to do to the current political system. That verse states:
“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.”
Why run for and put our hope in a political system that is controlled by Satan and that is going to be destroyed and replaced by God’s Kingdom?
No we don’t donate or accept blood even in emergency situations. The Bible makes it clear that God’s servants should not take blood into the body via the mouth or intravenously. We hope to never have to be in an emergency situation where we need blood but yes I would rather die than break God’s commandment. Revelation 2:10 states “Prove yourself faithful even until death and I will give you the crown of life.” Abstaining from blood even if it means our life is doing exactly that.
Zeb, why do you think we’re a cult. Is it because all JW’s belief the same thing?
I will no longer discus because it truly is pointless (from both ends) but I wanted to share this illustration of the trinity:
[quote]forbes wrote:
I will no longer discus because it truly is pointless (from both ends) but I wanted to share this illustration of the trinity:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/class-of-being-god.gif[/quote]
That illustration is partly right. But that is not the teaching of the trinity doctrine. The teaching is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same - not distinct individuals. That illustration is an example of people who can see from the Bible that God and Jesus are two separate beings so they modify the trinity teaching to look like that illustration.
Yes, God and Jesus are distinct individuals. And yes, Jesus and God are the same nature - they both are mighty spirit beings. Mighty spirit beings in the Bible are called gods. At
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “the god of this system of things.” At Isaiah 9:6,7 it is prophesied that Jesus would be called “might god” but yet in the same passage he is called the “prince of peace” who will sit on the throne of David. So yes Jesus is a god but not God Almighty.
No where in the Bible is the holy spirit called a god or even a person for that matter. Every instance in the Bible that states Jesus is at the right hand of God never does it also state that the holy spirit is there as well. Before Stephen died at Act 7:55,56 he catches a glimpse of heaven and sees two individuals - God and Jesus and his right hand.
You are right that the going back and forth is pointless but yet I still can’t pull myself away.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
You really need to read the Bible more and ask for God’s holy spirit to help you have a better understanding.[/quote]
Yeah, and when I do he’ll tell me that Jesus is not his son, there is no hell, only 144,000 JW’s are getting into heaven, to not salute the flag, and certainly NEVER buy girl scout cookies! LOL Stop it PULLLLEASE. You wouldn’t recognize God’s Holy Spirit if he visited you every morning for a year. If anything you guys carry the flag for Satan. Think about it:
God is not all powerful? Jesus is not God’s son but a mere angel, There is no Hell…
Those are some things that Satan would love for us to believe. And you guys spread these lies. I wish I could say the JW is just a bad joke, but it’s far worse as they lead people away from the truth.
[quote]Zeb, why do you think we’re a cult?
[/quote]
Oh I don’t know part of the reason might be some of JW absolutely wacky beliefs:
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil
-The Holy Spirit is only available to JW
-There is no Hell
-God is unable to be omnipresent or omniscient
-There is no life after death except for 144,000 select members of this cult
-Jesus second coming happened in (LOL) secret in 1914
-Jesus Christ is a created being (like an angel) who one time did not exist
-Salvation can only be earned by being loyal to this one cult
-“The first” resurrection occurred in 1918
The JW cultists are not allowed to do any of the following; serve in the military, buy girl scout cookies, celebrate Christmas or Easter, or even their own birthday. Run for political office, vote, serve on a jury, own or wear a cross, donate blood, or accept a blood donation even in an emergency. salute the flag, be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling.
You guys are brainwashed bots. You’re even unable to be objective enough to look at your founders and the many false predictions and your polluted history. But even worse you’ve decimated the Bible and all it stands for. I have zero respect for this cult. And I strongly suggest that you get out as fast as you can.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
You are right that the going back and forth is pointless but yet I still can’t pull myself away.[/quote]
I can only pull myself away long enough to grab a glass of milk and a few girl scout cookies. You should try some they’re really good. Oh…I forgot…girl scouts are from the devil according to your cult.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
I will no longer discus because it truly is pointless (from both ends) but I wanted to share this illustration of the trinity:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/class-of-being-god.gif[/quote]
That illustration is partly right. But that is not the teaching of the trinity doctrine. The teaching is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same - not distinct individuals. That illustration is an example of people who can see from the Bible that God and Jesus are two separate beings so they modify the trinity teaching to look like that illustration.
Yes, God and Jesus are distinct individuals. And yes, Jesus and God are the same nature - they both are mighty spirit beings. Mighty spirit beings in the Bible are called gods. At
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “the god of this system of things.” At Isaiah 9:6,7 it is prophesied that Jesus would be called “might god” but yet in the same passage he is called the “prince of peace” who will sit on the throne of David. So yes Jesus is a god but not God Almighty.
No where in the Bible is the holy spirit called a god or even a person for that matter. Every instance in the Bible that states Jesus is at the right hand of God never does it also state that the holy spirit is there as well. Before Stephen died at Act 7:55,56 he catches a glimpse of heaven and sees two individuals - God and Jesus and his right hand.
You are right that the going back and forth is pointless but yet I still can’t pull myself away.[/quote]
Im sorry but your idea of what the doctrine of the trinity is is completely wrong. It was and always has been that the ONE BEING of God is shared in THREE PERSONS. It is NOT that God is one individual who transforms into Father, Son and Spirit.
If Jesus is a god and not God then you are a part of a polytheistic religion, and blasphemous because God would not allow the worship of a god (or an angel for that matter).
Funny, you say the Bible never says that the Spirit is God or is personable, but yet it never says that Jesus is Michael.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Funny, you say the Bible never says that the Spirit is God or is personable, but yet it never says that Jesus is Michael. [/quote]
This is a key point that you’ve hit on (not that it will even phase the JW cult). They continually draw erroneous conclusions from misinterpreted scripture. In fact, this seems like their mission. There are ample opportunities for someone, anyone from an apostle, to a gospel writer to one of the prophets of old to flat out say “Jesus is an angel and not the son of God” and yet none do. They just NEVER say it. And somehow from those facts the JW think that Jesus is an angel. It’s a border line psychotic stance that they take and their minds will not be changed by you or I on a message board. They need serious deprogramming. I mean that.
Once again, if Satan had to establish a quasi religion he would do the following:
Claim God is not all powerful
Claim that there is no hell
Claim that most simply disappear when they die
Claim that Jesus is not God
Keep you from being patriotic
Keep you from celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ
But it’s only obvious to those of us who are not in the cult.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
I will no longer discus because it truly is pointless (from both ends) but I wanted to share this illustration of the trinity:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/class-of-being-god.gif[/quote]
That illustration is partly right. But that is not the teaching of the trinity doctrine. The teaching is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same - not distinct individuals. That illustration is an example of people who can see from the Bible that God and Jesus are two separate beings so they modify the trinity teaching to look like that illustration.
Yes, God and Jesus are distinct individuals. And yes, Jesus and God are the same nature - they both are mighty spirit beings. Mighty spirit beings in the Bible are called gods. At
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “the god of this system of things.” At Isaiah 9:6,7 it is prophesied that Jesus would be called “might god” but yet in the same passage he is called the “prince of peace” who will sit on the throne of David. So yes Jesus is a god but not God Almighty.
No where in the Bible is the holy spirit called a god or even a person for that matter. Every instance in the Bible that states Jesus is at the right hand of God never does it also state that the holy spirit is there as well. Before Stephen died at Act 7:55,56 he catches a glimpse of heaven and sees two individuals - God and Jesus and his right hand.
You are right that the going back and forth is pointless but yet I still can’t pull myself away.[/quote]
Im sorry but your idea of what the doctrine of the trinity is is completely wrong. It was and always has been that the ONE BEING of God is shared in THREE PERSONS. It is NOT that God is one individual who transforms into Father, Son and Spirit.
If Jesus is a god and not God then you are a part of a polytheistic religion, and blasphemous because God would not allow the worship of a god (or an angel for that matter).
Funny, you say the Bible never says that the Spirit is God or is personable, but yet it never says that Jesus is Michael. [/quote]
Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, Jesus is the Truth, Jesus is the Word, the Word is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
As well Baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. So, one name three persons. God.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
I will no longer discus because it truly is pointless (from both ends) but I wanted to share this illustration of the trinity:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/class-of-being-god.gif[/quote]
That illustration is partly right. But that is not the teaching of the trinity doctrine. The teaching is that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in the same - not distinct individuals. That illustration is an example of people who can see from the Bible that God and Jesus are two separate beings so they modify the trinity teaching to look like that illustration.
Yes, God and Jesus are distinct individuals. And yes, Jesus and God are the same nature - they both are mighty spirit beings. Mighty spirit beings in the Bible are called gods. At
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “the god of this system of things.” At Isaiah 9:6,7 it is prophesied that Jesus would be called “might god” but yet in the same passage he is called the “prince of peace” who will sit on the throne of David. So yes Jesus is a god but not God Almighty.
No where in the Bible is the holy spirit called a god or even a person for that matter. Every instance in the Bible that states Jesus is at the right hand of God never does it also state that the holy spirit is there as well. Before Stephen died at Act 7:55,56 he catches a glimpse of heaven and sees two individuals - God and Jesus and his right hand.
You are right that the going back and forth is pointless but yet I still can’t pull myself away.[/quote]
Im sorry but your idea of what the doctrine of the trinity is is completely wrong. It was and always has been that the ONE BEING of God is shared in THREE PERSONS. It is NOT that God is one individual who transforms into Father, Son and Spirit.
If Jesus is a god and not God then you are a part of a polytheistic religion, and blasphemous because God would not allow the worship of a god (or an angel for that matter).
Funny, you say the Bible never says that the Spirit is God or is personable, but yet it never says that Jesus is Michael. [/quote]
Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, Jesus is the Truth, Jesus is the Word, the Word is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
As well Baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. So, one name three persons. God.[/quote]
Nu uh a crazy old man from the 1800’s said so.
John 14:29 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If there is a trinity how could one be greater then the rest, since there is only one person?
[quote]
Nu uh a crazy old man from the 1800’s said so.[/quote]
Well you guys believe in a doctrine created by a bunch of old men led by a roman emperor in 306. Want to know what it is?
The Trinity.
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
John 14:29 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If there is a trinity how could one be greater then the rest, since there is only one person?
No…you don’t have any right to say anything until you explain the KEEEERAAAAAZYYY rules of your cult, such as:
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil
-The Holy Spirit is only available to JW
-There is no Hell
-God is unable to be omnipresent or omniscient
-There is no life after death except for 144,000 select members of this cult
-Jesus second coming happened in (LOL) secret in 1914
-Jesus Christ is a created being (like an angel) who one time did not exist
-Salvation can only be earned by being loyal to this one cult
-“The first” resurrection occurred in 1918
The JW cultists are not allowed to do any of the following; serve in the military, buy girl scout cookies, celebrate Christmas or Easter, or even their own birthday. Run for political office, vote, serve on a jury, own or wear a cross, donate blood, or accept a blood donation even in an emergency. salute the flag, be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling.
When you can unwind all this crazy crap then I’d be more than happy to read your rants about Christianity. Until then you and your boys are a laughing stock around here.
Soooo…start typing!
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
John 14:29 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If there is a trinity how could one be greater then the rest, since there is only one person?
Im bowing out now. ZEB, may the Lord be with you.
THE TRINITY IS NOT ONE PERSON! IT IS THREE! THERE ARE OVER 6 BILLION PEOPLE THAT MAKE UP ONE SPECIES (HUMAN). THERE ARE THREE PERSONS THAT MAKE UP ONE GOD! JESUS SUBMITS HIMSELF TO THE FATHER, BUT IT DOESN’T MAKE HIM ANY LESS GOD. YOU SUBMIT YOURSELF TO YOUR BOSS, TO THE PRESIDENT, TO YOUR PROFESSOR ETC…YET YOU ARE NOT ANY LESS HUMAN THAN THEY ARE, NOR ARE THEY ANY MORE HUMAN THAN YOU ARE. JESUS’ SUBMISSION TO THE FATHER WAS BY CHOICE, AND IS NOW FOREVERMORE.
I can no longer explain, and no one here can explain to make you understand. From here on out it is only the Holy Spirit who can convict you now, no one else.
Btw, I wasn’t angry in my all caps writing. I was just emphasizing.
Peace.
Forbes, why are you back on the trinity again. I have done all that on the trinity thread. Brother Chris came back at the end of that to repost some information he listed earlier but didn’t address the scriptures and points I brought up. I encouraged others to go back there to discuss the points I put in there. In fact, I think that you said in one of the posts on there that you were going back there to address it but never did. Feel free to do so. Zeb, on this forum likes to get people worked up and start arguments (despite what he says; actions are louder than words, and anyone following along can see what he is doing).
Notice Gal 5:20
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20Â idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21Â envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
Contentions is the word that I want to focus on for this instance. Contentions, or a contentious person, is one who looks to start confrontation. Zeb’s constant lists of things that JW’s do or believe that have to keep being corrected because they are blatantly wrong, or his constant condescending attitude does nothing but stir up quarrels. I have been absent here because I, frankly, have better things to do with my time than debate with someone who’s only objective is to have an argument.
Forbes, I know you feel strongly about the trinity, so feel free to address my posts in that thread as I thought we had a pretty good dialog going there. No pressure though.
The internet is a tricky place for this discussion, and I think some things are better done in person.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
John 14:29 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If there is a trinity how could one be greater then the rest, since there is only one person?
No…you don’t have any right to say anything until you explain the KEEEERAAAAAZYYY rules of your cult, such as:
-All earthly governments are controlled by the devil
-The Holy Spirit is only available to JW
-There is no Hell
-God is unable to be omnipresent or omniscient
-There is no life after death except for 144,000 select members of this cult
-Jesus second coming happened in (LOL) secret in 1914
-Jesus Christ is a created being (like an angel) who one time did not exist
-Salvation can only be earned by being loyal to this one cult
-“The first” resurrection occurred in 1918
The JW cultists are not allowed to do any of the following; serve in the military, buy girl scout cookies, celebrate Christmas or Easter, or even their own birthday. Run for political office, vote, serve on a jury, own or wear a cross, donate blood, or accept a blood donation even in an emergency. salute the flag, be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling.
When you can unwind all this crazy crap then I’d be more than happy to read your rants about Christianity. Until then you and your boys are a laughing stock around here.
Soooo…start typing![/quote]
Zeb,I already answered your questions its on page 10.
[quote]forbes wrote:
[quote]Vonamberg wrote:
John 14:29 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
If there is a trinity how could one be greater then the rest, since there is only one person?
Im bowing out now. ZEB, may the Lord be with you.
THE TRINITY IS NOT ONE PERSON! IT IS THREE! THERE ARE OVER 6 BILLION PEOPLE THAT MAKE UP ONE SPECIES (HUMAN). THERE ARE THREE PERSONS THAT MAKE UP ONE GOD! JESUS SUBMITS HIMSELF TO THE FATHER, BUT IT DOESN’T MAKE HIM ANY LESS GOD. YOU SUBMIT YOURSELF TO YOUR BOSS, TO THE PRESIDENT, TO YOUR PROFESSOR ETC…YET YOU ARE NOT ANY LESS HUMAN THAN THEY ARE, NOR ARE THEY ANY MORE HUMAN THAN YOU ARE. JESUS’ SUBMISSION TO THE FATHER WAS BY CHOICE, AND IS NOW FOREVERMORE.
I can no longer explain, and no one here can explain to make you understand. From here on out it is only the Holy Spirit who can convict you now, no one else.
Btw, I wasn’t angry in my all caps writing. I was just emphasizing.
Peace.[/quote]
So tell me how can one be greater? If they are 1 god, they would all be equal - correct?
