[quote]pushharder wrote:
Oh good grief, the force of ignorance is strong here.
Bistro and now Magick biting into the pie. I shake my head at the numbskullery.
[/quote]
All you did thus far against this particular piece of opinion is say we’re idiots. You’ve yet to give an opinion on why.
As for the Wikipedia article- You let me know where I said anything like that.
tremulous was the wrong word in my last post, although it sort of fits the early stages.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
While, ultimately you are more likely than not, more correct about this than I am, I think your a wee bit projecting YOUR personal feelings about doing these acts onto other people who are serving who may not feel the same way you do.
[/quote]
Well, ya. Isn’t that the entire point of holding an opinion? Our life experiences and whatnot color the way we see the same event. Different colored glasses and all that shit.[/quote]
Sure, other than the fact the whole of human history sort of flies in the face of his assertion that it will never happen.
Lmao, yeah and they set themselves on fire too.
Rigggggghhhhhttttt.
“Know your target and what’s beyond it”. You’re out of your league if you are going to sit there and tell me a West Point grad took that shot and slaughter a mother holding a 10 month old as an innocent mistake. You know, unless she moved with Flash like quickness and appeared behind the intended target at 2800 FPS.
I’ve seen videos of soldiers bouncing rounds off the ground 20 yards in front of the target, and subsequent ricochets travelling into the wild blue yonder. I’ve never seen a video of any trained sniper NOT aware of a mother standing beyond their target.
I’m not, nor ever have been in the military, but I’ve been around enough guns, and enough shooters to have a very solid understanding that this wasn’t some innocent mistake.
He pulled that trigger knowing that what happened might happen. And with a 308, might happen even if he hit his intended target. At best he thought “she’s just collateral damage”.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
We aren’t Nazi Gemany by any stretch, and neither party is particularly close to being as dominant. However, a closer look at Hitler’s rise will show, it wasn’t like he walked in and put his beer down and crowned king. It was a slow and tremulous journey.[/quote]
But he still held great power over the government by the time he went onto doing the really nasty things.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Secondly I think you confuse why our government is so “divided”. It certainly isn’t because any of them actually give two shits about the citizens, it’s because one team is getting more votes and more money than the other. It’s really that simple. It’s about the cash, not about the laws they want to pass, their philosophies or any of the other stuff they put on for show to win votes. C.R.E.A.M.[/quote]
So? The point is that republicans won’t let Obama take over Texas, if nothing else than to spite him.
And Obama won’t let the republicans do the same, if nothing else than to spite them.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
o_0
You need to look around a bit more. There is plenty of animosity. Doesn’t present much one on one, but groups of people start getting together…
15 mins ago, you KNEW getting on the train would never happen in America.[/quote]
That’s the best we can do. Work with what we believe in and what we think we know. We’re not omniscient.
I take great offense with you and Pushharder’s, especially Pushharder, thinking that you know more than me for precisely that reason. Y’all present yourself as though you actually have a bead on things. It’s, frankly speaking, very very annoying.
Whenever I write something, I write with the knowledge that it’s ultimately just an opinion and I could very well be wrong. And in order to reinforce this little bit of thought, I’m trying really hard to preface everything I write with “I think” and “I believe” nowadays.
So please do me a solid and stop thinking that I’m some idiot who has his ideas set in stone or something. Stop patronizing me and give me reasons to believe you. If you gave them before and I don’t seem to be responding to them, then I kindly ask that you give them again. It could very well be that I forgot about them (much like how I forgot about the Boston Marathon bombing and the Fort Hood shootings), or I never read them before.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Would you feel this same way if your political beliefs were always called “extremist”? If you’re political leanings were persecuted by the IRS? If your understanding of economics and civics got you ridiculed in movies, TV, songs and by almost every major celebrity and social icon? Are you not worried about the fact that if these same people you’re speaking about openly displayed the same patriotism as a civilian they would be grouped with the KKK and watched as “domestic terrorists”? [/quote]
I dunno. I do think taking on a siege mentality won’t really help matters though.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Because your leftism is the hip thing right now. Being in your political spectrum is cool, accepted and the “right” thing in today’s world. [/quote]
I’m not leftist. The only thing I agree with conventional democrat thought is in the social realm, and that’s really quite limited. I think social welfare is a bad idea. Not because it grows people to be dependent on government and such (that seems really similar to the idea of the ills of wage slavery imo), but because the government simply cannot handle it in all levels.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You wait until your world view falls out of favor, and read some history, then tell me what is and isn’t a cynical view. [/quote]
Dude. I was 15 when the Iraq War started, and I straight-out told my mom that it would be the start of the end for the U.S.
(No idea why I mention this).
[quote]magick wrote:
I take great offense with you and Pushharder’s, especially Pushharder, thinking that you know more than me for precisely that reason. Y’all present yourself as though you actually have a bead on things. It’s, frankly speaking, very very annoying.[/quote]
I’m very well aware I’m dumb, and don’t know very much at all. If I come off this way and it bothers you, I’m sorry. Not my intention.
I don’t think that about you in the slightest. In fact, you’re one of my favorite people to bicker with here because you do a very good job of challenging what I think, believe and ultimately make me think, a lot.
So please dont’ read into my tone other than you offer a challenge, and I accept it vigorously.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Do NOT attempt to discuss this subject while you are obviously submerged up to your hairline in ignorance.
Spend a few hours somewhere besides T-N and bring yourself up to speed about Horiuchi and Monroe and Harris and the Weavers and what constitutes legalized cold-blooded murder.
[/quote]
True. I know nothing about Waco. I think I was far more interested in Pokemon and the Super Nintendo at that point in time. I didn’t spend weeks watching that news or anything. And I didn’t bother reading up on Waco in adulthood.
You’re right. Talking about this is dumb on my standpoint.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Counterinsurgency (COIN) experts argue for a ratio of minimum of 20 troops per 1,000 of the population to achieve successful stabilization. In the case of Texas, a state with a population of nearly 27,000,000, that amounts to 540,000 troops. The 20 per 1,000 rule is a revision of the 10 per 1,000 rule that was previously influential in the COIN literature. Even under the more modest figure for force requirements in stability operations, 270,000 troops at a minimum would be required. [/quote]
Here’s the problem with statistics: numbers don’t account for all the variables of an individual scenario. You just said there were 1200 GREEN BERETS AND SEALS… In case you haven’t noticed, that’s a hell of a can of whoop ass… Probably more than has been deployed against our enemies in any major conflict we’ve had in the last 30 years. I could be wrong, but I do know that Green Berets and SEALs don’t need huge numbers to be effective, so spinning the conversation with statistics isn’t really staying in touch with reality (IMHO). I think that 1200 US Special Forces soldiers could do just about anything they wanted with any primarily civilian population on the planet - including ours.
[/quote]
Statistics can be defined as “the science that deals with the collection, classification, analysis, and interpretation of numerical facts or data, and that, by use of mathematical theories of probability, imposes order and regularity on aggregates of more or less disparate elements.” The 20 per 1,000 rule is an example of rigorous defense analysis, not an arbitrary application of statistics.
. . [N]o predetermined, fixed ratio of friendly troops to enemy combatants
ensures success in [counterinsurgency] . . . . A better force
requirement gauge is troop density, the ratio of security forces (including
the host nation’s military and police forces as well as foreign
counterinsurgents) to inhabitants. Most density recommendations fall
within a range of 20 to 25 counterinsurgents for every 1,000 residents
in an [area of operations]. Twenty counterinsurgents per 1,000 residents
is often considered the minimum troop density required for effective
[counterinsurgency] operations".
US Army, Field Manual 3-24, Counterinsurgency (Washington: Headquarters Department of the Army,
2006), 1-13.
I think you’ve watched Rambo a few too many times. Special operations forces (SOF) are not supermen in camouflage, but essentially highly trained and specialized light infantry forces. Light infantry are light because they possess no organic, heavy equipment. They fight on foot, in close terrain. Special operations forces are even lighter than their conventional light infantry counterparts. The same inherent vulnerabilities of conventional light infantry are exponentially increased for SOF. If Jade Helm 15 is a COIN exercise in name and a COIN operation in reality, the 1,200 strong mostly SOF contingent would need a metric shit ton of additional forces to successfully carry out their mission in just a major city alone (Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, or Houston), to the order of an additional 17,000-44,000 troops, respectively. Otherwise, 1,200 SOF without support (Artillery, Close Air Support, Armor, etc.) would be overwhelmed and slaughtered by National Guard units, ad hoc civilian militias, and state and local law enforcement.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Chuck Norris Warns that US Special Forces is a Threat to Texans
A 1,200 man strong force - constituted mainly by Army Green Berets, in addition to a small group of Navy SEALS, Air Force special operations forces, and conventional Army infantry - all light forces - are a threat to a state of nearly 27,000,000 - nearly half of whom gun owners. Seems plausible.[/quote]
As sophisticated as you purport to be it’s kinda ironic how you don’t seem to get it. Erudite with little common sense – is that you? Methinks it be thataway. [/quote]
I don’t purport to be anything. Predictably, when you run into an argument you’re unable or unwilling to address according to its merits, you attack the man who put it forth. Force requirements for various military operations are a very empirical aspect of military science, and come about through assiduous study. Please illuminate the “common sense” that applies to Jade Helm 15 that I’m unable to grasp.[/quote]
Here’s why you don’t get it: you are claiming those who are concerned with Jade Helm must be stupid because “a 1,200 man strong force” could never be “a threat to a state of nearly 27,000,000 - nearly half of whom gun owners.”
Do you really think that’s what this is about or do you think it’s the training these troops are receiving and the location where they are receiving it?
The “common sense” that one who lacks it should surely, surely, surely “assiduously” seek to gain is under full “illumination” and, “predictably,” I have to come on here and lead you by the hand so you can “empirically” observe it.[/quote]
Military training in the United States is nothing new. Counterinsurgency training in the United States is nothing new. Military training in Texas is nothing new. There is a reason San Antonio is called Military City, USA. COIN training in Texas is nothing new. The states where Jade Helm 15 is being conducted are geographically highly congruent to Southwest Asia, a region of immense concern to US national security. Consider that the Desert Phase of Ranger School, the US Army’s premier leadership and small unit tactics course, was conducted initially at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico and later relocated to Dugway Proving Ground, Utah and Fort Bliss, Texas. All states are participants in the field training exercise. You need to buckle down on your study of American military history and science Push. “Common sense” is useless outside of contextual subject matter knowledge.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Chuck Norris Warns that US Special Forces is a Threat to Texans
A 1,200 man strong force - constituted mainly by Army Green Berets, in addition to a small group of Navy SEALS, Air Force special operations forces, and conventional Army infantry - all light forces - are a threat to a state of nearly 27,000,000 - nearly half of whom gun owners. Seems plausible.[/quote]
As sophisticated as you purport to be it’s kinda ironic how you don’t seem to get it. Erudite with little common sense – is that you? Methinks it be thataway. [/quote]
I don’t purport to be anything. Predictably, when you run into an argument you’re unable or unwilling to address according to its merits, you attack the man who put it forth. Force requirements for various military operations are a very empirical aspect of military science, and come about through assiduous study. Please illuminate the “common sense” that applies to Jade Helm 15 that I’m unable to grasp.[/quote]
Here’s why you don’t get it: you are claiming those who are concerned with Jade Helm must be stupid because “a 1,200 man strong force” could never be “a threat to a state of nearly 27,000,000 - nearly half of whom gun owners.”
Do you really think that’s what this is about or do you think it’s the training these troops are receiving and the location where they are receiving it?
The “common sense” that one who lacks it should surely, surely, surely “assiduously” seek to gain is under full “illumination” and, “predictably,” I have to come on here and lead you by the hand so you can “empirically” observe it.[/quote]
Military training in the United States is nothing new. Counterinsurgency training in the United States is nothing new. Military training in Texas is nothing new. There is a reason San Antonio is called Military City, USA. COIN training in Texas is nothing new. The states where Jade Helm 15 is being conducted are geographically highly congruent to Southwest Asia, a region of immense concern to US national security. Consider that the Desert Phase of Ranger School, the US Army’s premier leadership and small unit tactics course, was conducted initially at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico and later relocated to Dugway Proving Ground, Utah and Fort Bliss, Texas. All states are participants in the field training exercise. You need to buckle down on your study of American military history and science Push. “Common sense” is useless outside of contextual subject matter knowledge. [/quote]
You still don’t get it but I don’t have the patience today to school you.
[/quote]
Oh yes, the trite ballad of the schizophrenic libertarian. Political dissident this, tyrannical federal government that. Sure you don’t. There are some subjects that are in your wheelhouse and some that are not. So far, you’ve demonstrated nothing but the latter. In response to my articulated historical and empirical arguments - shrill appeals to emotion that lack a modicum of evidence or familiarity with the subject matter. I look forward to you schooling me in a subject you obviously haven’t devoted much time toward. Until then, scurry away.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Until then, scurry away now. [/quote]
You fancy yourself well versed yet continuously ignore my simple and basic question, over and over, and I’m pretty sure you were the poster I directed it towards the first time around.
You’re in zero position to tell anyone to scurry about, because you don’t even have the decency to do it yourself after avoiding for pages now.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Until then, scurry away now. [/quote]
You fancy yourself well versed yet continuously ignore my simple and basic question, over and over, and I’m pretty sure you were the poster I directed it towards the first time around.
You’re in zero position to tell anyone to scurry about, because you don’t even have the decency to do it yourself after avoiding for pages now. [/quote]
That was directed at Push, who found me lacking in common sense while being both unable and unwilling to address my arguments beyond a caustic one liner. Read my posts on this page and the previous one. If you have a questions regarding those, I will do my best to answer them.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Until then, scurry away now. [/quote]
You fancy yourself well versed yet continuously ignore my simple and basic question, over and over, and I’m pretty sure you were the poster I directed it towards the first time around.
You’re in zero position to tell anyone to scurry about, because you don’t even have the decency to do it yourself after avoiding for pages now. [/quote]
That was directed at Push, who found me lacking in common sense while being both unable and unwilling to address my arguments beyond a caustic one liner. Read my posts on this page and the previous one. If you have a questions regarding those, I will do my best to answer them. [/quote]
You’ve been dodging it since page 6, and Aragon is the only one who has even bother to try and answer.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
As a Texan, I’m ashamed of the imbecilic behavior of Greg Abbot and Senator Ted Cruz in regard to Jade Helm 15. They are doing a disservice to the state, the nation, and our service members. If anything, Americans should be disconceted that such nescient individuals hold high office. [/quote]
Do me a favor, let me know when it’s appropriate for us imbeciles to be concerned with what our military and government is doing.
Seriously. I posted this same request when I was told I was stupid for being curious and concerned.
Let me know at what specific point, before it’s too late, being concerned and observing isn’t stupid or imbecilic.
Thanks. [/quote]
Don’t take it to harshly, people on other forums won’t answer it either, it’s a lot easier to call me names and post memes than answer.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Until then, scurry away now. [/quote]
You fancy yourself well versed yet continuously ignore my simple and basic question, over and over, and I’m pretty sure you were the poster I directed it towards the first time around.
You’re in zero position to tell anyone to scurry about, because you don’t even have the decency to do it yourself after avoiding for pages now. [/quote]
That was directed at Push, who found me lacking in common sense while being both unable and unwilling to address my arguments beyond a caustic one liner. Read my posts on this page and the previous one. If you have a questions regarding those, I will do my best to answer them. [/quote]
You’ve been dodging it since page 6, and Aragon is the only one who has even bother to try and answer.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
As a Texan, I’m ashamed of the imbecilic behavior of Greg Abbot and Senator Ted Cruz in regard to Jade Helm 15. They are doing a disservice to the state, the nation, and our service members. If anything, Americans should be disconceted that such nescient individuals hold high office. [/quote]
Do me a favor, let me know when it’s appropriate for us imbeciles to be concerned with what our military and government is doing.
Seriously. I posted this same request when I was told I was stupid for being curious and concerned.
Let me know at what specific point, before it’s too late, being concerned and observing isn’t stupid or imbecilic.
Thanks. [/quote]
Don’t take it to harshly, people on other forums won’t answer it either, it’s a lot easier to call me names and post memes than answer. [/quote]
I didn’t dodge the question as much as I dismissed it outright because of its ambiguous form and scope. If you’re genuinely concerned about Jade Helm 15, it would serve you well to familiarize yourself with basic American military history and science. It’s the same issue whether its discussions regarding drones or counter-terrorism in PWI. Field training exercises are not unprecedented in the United States. They are not unprecedented in the states where Jade Helm 15 is taking place. I cited US military doctrine regarding force requirements for Counter-Insurgency operations, and pointed out the huge discrepancy between the lightly equipped 1,200 special operations force personnel and the number that would be required to exert effective control over a major city in Texas alone (18,000-44,000), much less the state (270,000 - 540,000). I pointed out in a previous post that the geography where the exercise is taking place is highly congruent to Southwest Asia, which is why the US Ranger School conducted its now defunct desert phase in New Mexico, Texas, and Utah.
When revolutionary tribunals are formed and are fed by Cheka like state security organs, you will have cause for alarm. When the intelligence community resembles the NKVD and begins to administer Gulags for political opponents, you will be justified. An interstate FTX conducted by 1,200 SOF? You need more than that.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Until then, scurry away now. [/quote]
You fancy yourself well versed yet continuously ignore my simple and basic question, over and over, and I’m pretty sure you were the poster I directed it towards the first time around.
You’re in zero position to tell anyone to scurry about, because you don’t even have the decency to do it yourself after avoiding for pages now. [/quote]
That was directed at Push, who found me lacking in common sense while being both unable and unwilling to address my arguments beyond a caustic one liner. Read my posts on this page and the previous one. If you have a questions regarding those, I will do my best to answer them. [/quote]
You’ve been dodging it since page 6, and Aragon is the only one who has even bother to try and answer.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
As a Texan, I’m ashamed of the imbecilic behavior of Greg Abbot and Senator Ted Cruz in regard to Jade Helm 15. They are doing a disservice to the state, the nation, and our service members. If anything, Americans should be disconceted that such nescient individuals hold high office. [/quote]
Do me a favor, let me know when it’s appropriate for us imbeciles to be concerned with what our military and government is doing.
Seriously. I posted this same request when I was told I was stupid for being curious and concerned.
Let me know at what specific point, before it’s too late, being concerned and observing isn’t stupid or imbecilic.
Thanks. [/quote]
Don’t take it to harshly, people on other forums won’t answer it either, it’s a lot easier to call me names and post memes than answer. [/quote]
I didn’t dodge the question as much as I dismissed it outright because of its ambiguous form and scope. If you’re genuinely concerned about Jade Helm 15, it would serve you well to familiarize yourself with basic American military history and science. It’s the same issue whether its discussions regarding drones or counter-terrorism in PWI. Field training exercises are not unprecedented in the United States. They are not unprecedented in the states where Jade Helm 15 is taking place. I cited US military doctrine regarding force requirements for Counter-Insurgency operations, and pointed out the huge discrepancy between the lightly equipped 1,200 special operations force personnel and the number that would be required to exert effective control over a major city in Texas alone (18,000-44,000), much less the state (270,000 - 540,000). I pointed out in a previous post that the geography where the exercise is taking place is highly congruent to Southwest Asia, which is why the US Ranger School conducted its now defunct desert phase in New Mexico, Texas, and Utah.[/quote]
Fine and there is nothing wrong with that.
I’m confused. Is your answer:
a) You’ll know when it’s appropriate to worry without being called an imbecilic maroon once it’s too late
or
b) This is America, my flag and piece of paper says it will be different from every other government in the history of mankind.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I don’t think that about you in the slightest. In fact, you’re one of my favorite people to bicker with here because you do a very good job of challenging what I think, believe and ultimately make me think, a lot.
So please dont’ read into my tone other than you offer a challenge, and I accept it vigorously.
[/quote]
It’s been some time since I’ve been subjected to Pushharder and I went and posted about it in a post towards you.
Apologies.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
I didn’t dodge the question as much as I dismissed it outright .[/quote]
Also on this: yeah, and your dismissal, is why “tin foil hat” people don’t give two fucks what names you call them. They don’t “dismiss” questions. (Not always coming up with the right answers, but they ask questions at least.)
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
b) This is America, my flag and piece of paper says it will be different from every other government in the history of mankind.
[/quote]
American exceptionalism only exists as far as people believe it exists.
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
b) This is America, my flag and piece of paper says it will be different from every other government in the history of mankind.
[/quote]
American exceptionalism only exists as far as people believe it exists.[/quote]
Which is why I don’t think the people worried about JH are imbecilic, nor do I believe “there is no way” US military personnel wouldn’t follow the faithful order to the man. Plenty would say “fuck you” and fight for the citizens, and it would be those brave heros that made the difference, but enough would “yes sir”, IMO, to make it possible.
It’s also why I think the fat fucks who can’t run 100 yards are a tad bit better than Varq gives them credit for. And also why I believe this is, by far, the best and free-est nation on the planet, despite Her issues.
We are the beacon of liberty off in the distance, and our military personnel are the foundation of that liberty. However we hold a lot of power, and we all know what happens to men when they get power.