I agree that a significant portion of the world, including China, Venezuela, etc, wants to see the U.S. fail and that they proudly hold themselves up as some sort of opponent of the U.S., or at least someone willing to stand up against us when the situation so suits them.
However, I think what these countries are more concerned about is themselves, and they’ll simply wait for us to make a mistake in our foreign policy that ends up weakening us so they can turn that into some sort of propaganda campaign that pumps themselves up, like Chavez for instance.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that the current course of action, one where we openly stand behind an Israeli strike against Iran, seems to be one that will potentially weaken us much more than making a point of standing on the sidelines as a somewhat passive observer would. So to be in better position to handle the rest of this global war against us that you speak of, I think the better course of action is to remain aggressively neutral on the matter in the short-term so that we don’t divert too many resources away from large opponents like Pakistan or China.
Barring a major…and I mean MAJOR change on policy…our support of Israel will not change.
As Panetta often says:
“…That’s not negotiable…”
Mufasa[/quote]
Well, no shit it isn’t going to change anytime soon. That’s what worries me. I think it needs to and it won’t, right here at a critical juncture in this fucking morbid menage a trois that we’re in with Israel and the Arab/Persian world.[/quote]
I’m not understanding why you think it “needs to change.” Israel is the only “real” friend the US has in the MENA. Yet you seem to be implying that turning on them will “make them like us.” Could you explain this thinking a little?
[quote] Let’s face it though. The nature of the whole situation in the Middle East is such that at some point we’re going to come to a crossroads. We see it in history all the time, moments where we can look back in hindsight and say, “fuck, they should have chosen Door #2 instead and their whole history might have been better.” I think this may be a major intersection point in the history of our involvement in the Middle East, and while I agree that it seems natural, right now, in the moment, to lean toward Israel’s proposed action being a good thing for U.S. interests in the Middle East, I think that a long-term perspective shows otherwise.
I hate to get so, uh…ethereal about this, but I just really have this dark, foreboding sense of climax and doom about this whole general pseudo-standoff with Iran, be it by proxy via Israel or directly. I get this weird feeling of despair, as if I’m stuck in slow-motion in a violent car crash and I’m in the car and I feel like I can do something since everything’s moving really slowly but I’m moving slowly too so I’m helpless as the car hurtles over the edge of the cliff and into the abyss every time I think about the possibility of a full-scale war in Iran, and probably the surrounding areas as well, including Iraq.[/quote]
A real concern and a feeling of foreboding I’ve had for years too.
‘I have a premonition that will not leave me. As it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.’ - Eric Hoffer, 1968
I just worry that this unWAVERing support for Israel…[/quote]
Israel doesn’t need U.S. ‘support’ - and certainly not the sort of support Bam Bam gave by telling them to go back to '67 borders. The US needs them as much as they need the US. Their(and our) enemies will never become our friends no matter what happens. Remaining a close ally of Israel is in our interests.
Barring a major…and I mean MAJOR change on policy…our support of Israel will not change.
As Panetta often says:
“…That’s not negotiable…”
Mufasa[/quote]
Well, no shit it isn’t going to change anytime soon. That’s what worries me. I think it needs to and it won’t, right here at a critical juncture in this fucking morbid menage a trois that we’re in with Israel and the Arab/Persian world.
Let’s face it though. The nature of the whole situation in the Middle East is such that at some point we’re going to come to a crossroads. We see it in history all the time, moments where we can look back in hindsight and say, “fuck, they should have chosen Door #2 instead and their whole history might have been better.” I think this may be a major intersection point in the history of our involvement in the Middle East, and while I agree that it seems natural, right now, in the moment, to lean toward Israel’s proposed action being a good thing for U.S. interests in the Middle East, I think that a long-term perspective shows otherwise.
I hate to get so, uh…ethereal about this, but I just really have this dark, foreboding sense of climax and doom about this whole general pseudo-standoff with Iran, be it by proxy via Israel or directly. I get this weird feeling of despair, as if I’m stuck in slow-motion in a violent car crash and I’m in the car and I feel like I can do something since everything’s moving really slowly but I’m moving slowly too so I’m helpless as the car hurtles over the edge of the cliff and into the abyss every time I think about the possibility of a full-scale war in Iran, and probably the surrounding areas as well, including Iraq.[/quote]
You have to break a horse to train it and a trained horse will do your bidding on command. It can get rough in the pen but in the end you have a submissive animal willing to work for you. You can look back and question the efficacy of one technique over another on a particular horses but if you do what seems best at the time, you’ll come out successful at the end as the dominant entity.
The middle east will be a good horse, it is coming around but it still needs to break some bad habits.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
…Israel doesn’t need U.S. ‘support’ - and certainly not the sort of support Bam Bam gave by telling them to go back to '67 borders…[/quote]
Okay…I have a feeling that I’ll get “Jewbacca-Slapped” for these comments…but here goes:
Netanyahu pretty much “schooled” the President on this issue…and came out publicly and said that they are now are of the “same understanding on the issue”.
This was NOT something I read…but actually heard Ehud Barak state that this administration has been one of the strongest supporters of Israel in DECADES…(yes, decades…)
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
…Israel doesn’t need U.S. ‘support’ - and certainly not the sort of support Bam Bam gave by telling them to go back to '67 borders…[/quote]
Okay…I have a feeling that I’ll get “Jewbacca-Slapped” for these comments…but here goes:
Netanyahu pretty much “schooled” the President on this issue…and came out publicly and said that they are now are of the “same understanding on the issue”.
This was NOT something I read…but actually heard Ehud Barak state that this administration has been one of the strongest supporters of Israel in DECADES…(yes, decades…)
Flame away!
Mufasa[/quote]
Obummer: ‘You’re sick of him? I have to deal with him every day.’
[quote]pushharder wrote:
DB, you’re failing to recognize there is exactly ONE (1) rational player in the Middle East.
Israel.
Only one.
Uno.[/quote]
Well Push, the way I see it, there’s a considerable amount of irrationality to even Israel’s alleged intentions in this whole thing, let alone any American intention to openly back it.[/quote]
Are you serious, If I live two houses down from you and make public claims I want to shoot you in the head, that you should die, that I should wipe you and your family off the face of the earth, then start bringing in military grade firearms and keep saying they are for hunting, wouldn’t you feel the need to take action. Or should you wait for me to wipe you and your family off the face of the earth.
This battle is inevitable, better get it over with then postpone and give people who have no value for your or their life the chance to take half of the world with them
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
‘I have a premonition that will not leave me. As it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish the holocaust will be upon us.’ - Eric Hoffer, 1968[/quote]
What a bunch of bullshit. I don’t want to sound insensitive here, but the U.S. will get along just fine without Israel. We did pretty fucking well when there was no Israel pre-1948. There is no correlation between enduring American prosperity and a continued, unwavering alliance/protection of Israel.
Were Israel to refuse to back and / or assist with a significant US military action somewhere in the world, I think most Americans would be screaming mad about it.
Isn’t this the same thing?
[/quote]
Sure, but what does that have to do with anything? My argument is that at some point America will find itself in a position where we will need to proceed differently with Israel and their intentions in the Middle East than we have up until this point. A distancing, not a betrayal. This is that time. So the reality is that Israeli opinion means absolutely shit when it comes to the long-term prospects of this country. Why would things be any different if the roles were reversed? Do you really think the Israelis would give one flying fuck if we were angry about something they did or did not do?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
DB, you’re failing to recognize there is exactly ONE (1) rational player in the Middle East.
Israel.
Only one.
Uno.[/quote]
Well Push, the way I see it, there’s a considerable amount of irrationality to even Israel’s alleged intentions in this whole thing, let alone any American intention to openly back it.[/quote]
Are you serious, If I live two houses down from you and make public claims I want to shoot you in the head, that you should die, that I should wipe you and your family off the face of the earth, then start bringing in military grade firearms and keep saying they are for hunting, wouldn’t you feel the need to take action. Or should you wait for me to wipe you and your family off the face of the earth.
This battle is inevitable, better get it over with then postpone and give people who have no value for your or their life the chance to take half of the world with them[/quote]
If I lived in a neighborhood where not only the guy two doors down wanted to kill me, but the guy next door to me, across the street, on the corner, behind me and so forth also wanted to kill me, I’d fucking move. I wouldn’t go into the guy’s house two doors down and slit his fucking throat and expect that to be the end of it.
And I get that it’s an inevitable battle. I just feel that this isn’t America’s battle, we don’t need to become involved at all to see things play out generally the way we want them to, and I don’t see one fucking obligation we have toward Israel that puts our long-term prospects there at risk.
If I lived in a neighborhood where not only the guy two doors down wanted to kill me, but the guy next door to me, across the street, on the corner, behind me and so forth also wanted to kill me, I’d fucking move. I wouldn’t go into the guy’s house two doors down and slit his fucking throat and expect that to be the end of it…
[/quote]
So Israel should move, huh?
[/quote]
Well if they marched right in, they could march right out. They hadn’t been there in any real quantity for like 2000 years before they came back and rained on everyone’s parade.
