Israel Invades Lebanon

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
mazilla wrote:

NO, Israel is hated because they are intruders. they should have been set up in Europe. what the hell did palastine do to deserve having their land stolen?

The Israelis have been there since they were chased out of Egypt and took it from the Canaanites ~ 2500 years ago. There are just a lot of them that came back post WW2.

It is their tradional home long before the Palestinians came into the picture.

It is a stupid argument anyway. The reality is they are there. They are not going anywhere.

When are you vacating the US and returning it to the rightfull owners, the Indians? You can stay in my garage for a couple of weeks.

I know I know, that’s silly.
But it isn’t silly when the Jews play that card?

Why do you have so much sympathy for the Israeli, returning to their traditional home where they lived 2500 years ago, but not for they Palestinian, wanting to returne to their home, where they lived 60 years ago?

Isn’t it silly when the Arabs try to play that card?

At least the Jews paid for the land.[/quote]

Russian oligarchs “paid” for their empires too. And there is a world of difference between a large but controlled immigration into your country and a small minority of the population seizing half your country by force (and, eventually, all of it).

142

Interesting post, Gmoney37.

I like the idea of supporting legitimate governments as long as they are secular. That is the long-term solution to eliminating terrorism, IMO.

Problem here is that we need a short-term solution to ending the fighting. Hizbollah needs its ass handed to it or something.

143

And as long as we’re going slightly OT and discussing the legitimacy of Israel as a nation…

Step one: Look at a map. How long has Israel been there? Not “why”, how long?

Step two: Does the nation in question have laws and self-determination? Is there a “national identity” in its population?

I think Israel is more than legitimate, just by virtue of common sense. I would think the same of Palestine if they would just act like they were worthy of nation status. So far, their track record is so far below worhty that it’s not even an issue. I would add that giving Yassir Arafat a nobel prize for peace was a slap in the face for all other legitimate nobel laureates.

I will stand up and applaud Palestine if they would stop acting like children and make some real progress towards getting along with Israel. They had their chance at a real national presence and they blew it.

They aren’t ready. Maybe later, guys… right now you are a ragtag band of fuck-ups. Stop blowing shit up for no good reason, stop provoking fights, stop killing innocents… maybe then the rest of the world will treat you like grown-ups.

Just my 2.

144

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I like the idea of supporting legitimate governments as long as they are secular. That is the long-term solution to eliminating terrorism, IMO.[/quote]

Do you know what “legitimate governments” are? Do you know how they are created?

A “legitimate government” is any government that declares itself as such and has the military capacity to ensure its continued existence.

New states do not arise without a shift in the balance of power, which is always accompanied by violence.

What makes the U.S. a “legitimate government”? Nothing more than its own declaration and the fact that it has enough weapons defend itself.

Great Britain did not grant the American state its existence…it had to be taken by force. Such is the case with every real (i.e. non-puppet) government.

If you want to establish a “legitimate” Palestinian state in the ME, then the balance of power will have to shift away from the Israeli’s and towards the Arabs. Otherwise, there can be no legitimate government. If the terrorist organizations manage to tilt the balance of power in their favor, then THEY will become the new, “legitimate governments” in that area of the world.

Might makes right. History is written by the victors. Power is always seized, never granted. The basis of all legal systems is violence.

145

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Interesting post, Gmoney37.

I like the idea of supporting legitimate governments as long as they are secular. That is the long-term solution to eliminating terrorism, IMO.

Problem here is that we need a short-term solution to ending the fighting. Hizbollah needs its ass handed to it or something.[/quote]

Well in Israel in order to be able to own land you must be jewish. What if in the USA, the requirement for owning land was being a christian? It would be unfair since many americans are not christian and they own land. Many foreigers own a big chunk of America.
There is only one real way to end this and that is a 2 state solution. The magazine Tikkun has come up with a set of conditions for both sides for a two state solution with a border police force comprised of both palistianins and Israelis. Something like this happened before and the killing lessened significantly, that is until sharon decided to pull out of Gaza.

The reason i think Israel wants grants only jews the freedom to own land is that many in israel are afraid that because there aree more arabs than jews its only a matter of time before there are a majority of arabs and with that the fear of losing the jewish state. I am against any state based on religious grounds, no matter if its jewish, christan , islamic or hindi or whatever. The state should represent all of its citizens by the means of the rule of law.

146

From today’s Washington Times.

Israel capable of air strike on Iran
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 18, 2006

Israel is in the best position militarily in its history to mount air strikes against Iran, after a decade of buying U.S.-produced long-range aircraft, penetrating bombs and aerial refueling tankers.
Tel Aviv has ratcheted up the volume in attacking the hard-line Islamic regime as it fights the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. In the past, Israeli politicians have talked openly of attacking Iranian nuclear sites to prevent the U.S.-designated terror state from building atomic warheads.
Israel has purchased 25 $84 million F-15I (I for Israel) Ra’am, a special version of the U.S. F-15E long-range interdiction bomber. It also is buying 102 of another long-range tactical jet, the $45 million F-16I Sufa. About 60 have been delivered.
The Jewish state also is buying 500 U.S. BLU-109 “bunker buster” bombs that could penetrate the concrete protection around some of Iran’s underground facilities, such as the uranium enrichment site at Natanz. The final piece of the enterprise is a fleet of B-707 air-to-air refuelers that could nurse strike aircraft as they made the 900-mile-plus trip inside Iran, dropped their bombs and returned to Israel.
“They have the capability to strike Iran,” said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney, a former fighter pilot who has trained with Israelis. “It would be limited, though. They could do 30 to 40 ‘aim points’ in the array. I’m not worried about them hitting the targets. They will suffer losses, but they are capable of doing it.”
He said Israeli fighter pilots are “the best in the world. I’ve flown against them. They train better. They get more flying time.”
Perhaps just as important as weapon systems is airspace.
The most direct route would be through Jordanian and Iraqi airspace. Two Israeli pilots showed that they could navigate both without being shot down in 1981, when they flew the 600 miles to the Osirak nuclear reactor near Baghdad, dropped their bombs and returned over Jordan to an air base in southern Israel.
Today, the United States, not Saddam Hussein, controls Iraq’s vast airspace. Military analysts suggest the United States might approve the mission passively by letting the jets fly both ways unencumbered.
Gen. McInerney said the United States must grant airspace rights. “They really can’t do this without us,” he said. “I wouldn’t have them do it. We can do it much more aggressively and more decisively. We shouldn’t force the Israelis to do it when we should do it.”
The retired pilot called Iran’s air defenses “1960s vintage” and not as good as the Iraqi defenses that Israeli pilots avoided in 1981.
Vice President Dick Cheney last year revealed Bush administration suspicions that Israel may take pre-emptive action.
“One of the concerns people have is that Israel might do it without being asked, that if, in fact, the Israelis became convinced the Iranians had significant nuclear capability, given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first, and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards,” he said on the “Imus in the Morning” radio show.
In the Osirak strike, both F-16s made the round trip without aerial refueling, but targets in Iran are at least 300 miles farther away. Although the F-15Is and F-16Is have a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles, the numbers would indicate that the mission might require aerial refueling, thus complicating an already daunting operation.
However, the Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the F-15Is and F-16Is “extended flight range reportedly allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran without having to refuel.”
Israeli political leaders have pressed the Bush administration to halt Iran’s nuclear weapons program. At the same time, some have publicly stated that Israel will take unilateral action to destroy Iranian facilities if Washington fails to stop it.

147

[quote]Valentinius wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
mazilla wrote:

NO, Israel is hated because they are intruders. they should have been set up in Europe. what the hell did palastine do to deserve having their land stolen?

The Israelis have been there since they were chased out of Egypt and took it from the Canaanites ~ 2500 years ago. There are just a lot of them that came back post WW2.

It is their tradional home long before the Palestinians came into the picture.

It is a stupid argument anyway. The reality is they are there. They are not going anywhere.

When are you vacating the US and returning it to the rightfull owners, the Indians? You can stay in my garage for a couple of weeks.

I know I know, that’s silly.
But it isn’t silly when the Jews play that card?

Why do you have so much sympathy for the Israeli, returning to their traditional home where they lived 2500 years ago, but not for they Palestinian, wanting to returne to their home, where they lived 60 years ago?

How does this have anything to do with the statement, “The reality is they are there. They are not going anywhere”? I think then i will advocate the French reoccupying the region. TheY inhabited it 1000 years ago. Schweet Ohhh…maybe we can give it to the romans…oohhh the greeks…ohh i know lets give it to the vatican…

[/quote]

better yet, give it to the Iranians. they were the true owners. give it back to the persians, or they can just take it.

148

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
doogie wrote:

JTF, you know we wouldn’t allow Israel into the Coalition. We hold them back more than we enable them.

That’s a joke. Take a look at foreign aid, and especially military aid. We hardly hold them back.

We hold them back from doing what they have to do.

Imagine if Mexico was shooting rockets into American cities every day?

Would we fight back on a large scale or small scale.

Would we give them Texas back in hopes that they stop killing us?

Israel has shown restraint because America has told them to.

That’s one of the dumber analogies I’ve heard in a while. What if we invaded Mexico, subjugated the entire population, and kept them at an economic level barely above subsistence. Then, forty years later, we “gave” them back the Yucatan because it was a drag fighting the insurgency there, and we wanted to withdraw into more defensible borders. Should we really be surprised they’re not thankful and are lobbing rockets at Cancun?

That’s still a pretty flawed analogy, but it’s miles better than what you threw out there.[/quote]

If you think that anolgy is closer than mine you are out of your mind.

149

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
I like the idea of supporting legitimate governments as long as they are secular. That is the long-term solution to eliminating terrorism, IMO.

Do you know what “legitimate governments” are? Do you know how they are created?

A “legitimate government” is any government that declares itself as such and has the military capacity to ensure its continued existence.

… [/quote]

Lebanon’s legitimate government is elected.

Same as the US.

You need to stop using propaganda as your source of history.

150

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You need to stop using propaganda as your source of history.[/quote]

Umm, Zap, throughout history power and legitimacy have been bought at the point of a sword or the point of a gun. The US also bought freedom at the point of a gun.

Times have been changing somewhat, as Canada eventually drifted away from the UK… which shows that armed conflict is not the only way.

I’m not, however, trying to agree with Nominal in general as his views are pretty zany at times…

151

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152

From Rueter’s. If this comes to pass. I predict Iran gets hit hard by the US and Israel.

Iran’s Hizbollah says ready to attack US, Israel
Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:09pm ET

TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran’s Hizbollah, which claims links to the Lebanese group of the same name, said on Tuesday it stood ready to attack Israeli and U.S. interests worldwide.

“We have 2,000 volunteers who have registered since last year,” said Iranian Hizbollah’s spokesman Mojtaba Bigdeli, speaking by telephone from the central seminary city of Qom.

“They have been trained and they can become fully armed. We are ready to dispatch them to every corner of the world to jeopardise Israel and America’s interests. We are only waiting for the Supreme Leader’s green light to take action. If America wants to ignite World War Three … we welcome it,” he said.

Iranian religious organisations have made great public show of recruiting volunteers for “martyrdom-seeking operations” in recent years, usually threatening U.S. interests in case of any attack against the Islamic Republic’s nuclear programme.

But there is no record of an Iranian volunteer from these recruitment campaigns taking part in an attack.

Iran’s Hizbollah (Party of God) says it is spiritually bound to Shi’ite Muslim guerrillas in Lebanon but its command structure and funding are unclear.

Despite Iranian Hizbollah’s insistence that it takes orders from Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, government ministries say Hizbollah does not implement official policy. Iran’s government has said it hopes for a diplomatic solution to the Israeli offensive in Lebanon.

While Iran did fund and support Lebanese Hizbollah during the 1980s, Tehran says it has not contributed troops or weapons in the latest violence. Israel says Iranian armaments have been fired against it.

? Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

153

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
pitbull314 wrote:
The conflict in Northern Ireland wasn’t really about religion per say. The british Invaded Northern ireland so they could use its ports then enslaved the Irish in their own country. Even up until the 1970’s Irish Catholics were treated like blacks here were in the 50’s and 60’s. All the Irish people did was stand up for themselves and because they didn’t have any organized army like the british they were “terrorists”
In my opinion the I.R.A. and Sinn Fein are heroes.

Hmmm. Didn’t know this.

BUT

Did the IRA use bombs on innocents to make their point? It’s a shame you guys didn’t have an Irish Martin Luther King, because that cat did it right. You want social change, and want to be taken seriously? Starting off with bombing folks who aren’t responsible for your problems is not a good start.

Or is this not just common sense? :)[/quote]

Let me rephrase my statement. When I said the IRA I was referring to the original IRA led by Michael Collins. You are thinking of the provisional IRA who did do many horrible things in recent years.

154

[quote]doogie wrote:
pitbull314 wrote:

…but is there attack really proportionate to the crime? I don’t mean to sum up this conflict with that satement alone because there is much more to it, but my point is just because a country has planes, ships, missles, etc. does mean that their actions are anymore justifiable than those of someone who blows himself up.

Might makes right. They say that for a reason. It’s not just a bumper sticker or a short poem. Might makes right.

Having the might without the will to use it makes you a pussy and eventually a victim. Israel hasn’t come close to using the amount of force it will take to stop this bullshit once and for all. Until they cut loose and look like a rabid pitbull that has broken the leash that is American foreign aid, they will continue to be victims of this cowardly bullshit.[/quote]

Having the might makes right? That makes no sense whatsoever. So was hitler right because he had might?
Was it ok for the europeans to enslave africans because they had right.

I agree with Isalmic fundamentalist are cowards and they are not right for doing the things they have done to Israel, but how can Israel explain the fact that 9 out of ten casualities in Lebanon were civilian?

155

I don’t necessarily agree with this, but it’s interesting, especially given the source, Bill Lind, who helped develop maneuver warfare for the Marine Corps and now studies what he calls Fourth Generation warfare, or non-state military actors (insurgencies, terrorism, criminal gangs, etc.):

http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_7_18_06.htm

156

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
I don’t necessarily agree with this, but it’s interesting, especially given the source, Bill Lind, who helped develop maneuver warfare for the Marine Corps and now studies what he calls Fourth Generation warfare, or non-state military actors (insurgencies, terrorism, criminal gangs, etc.):

http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_7_18_06.htm[/quote]

I’ve read some of his stuff. Very academic. Comes across as someone who knows what he’s talking about.

Incidentally, Antiwar.com hosts some of his writing.

That is the site whose editorials I have repeatedly cited in foreign policy discussions on this board. Definetly worth checking out. It is, I believe, one of the most comprehensive international news site on the internet.

157

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
You need to stop using propaganda as your source of history.

Umm, Zap, throughout history power and legitimacy have been bought at the point of a sword or the point of a gun. The US also bought freedom at the point of a gun.

Times have been changing somewhat, as Canada eventually drifted away from the UK… which shows that armed conflict is not the only way.

I’m not, however, trying to agree with Nominal in general as his views are pretty zany at times…[/quote]

I thought this topic was about Lebanon. He is trying to discredit Lebanon’s legitimate government in his support for Hezbollah to do whatever the fuck they want to.

US freedom came from revolution but our govenment came from a long process of writing a constution and electing a government. That is why we remain free today.

That is why Lebanon needs their legitimate government to stand and Hezbollah to fall if they are to have any hope of freedom and prosperity on the future.

158

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I thought this topic was about Lebanon. He is trying to discredit Lebanon’s legitimate government in his support for Hezbollah to do whatever the fuck they want to.[/quote]

No, I think the point he made about the rise of government or autonomy is not support for Hezbollah, it is simply a reflection on world history, which might be an encouraging principle for the actions of people like Hezbollah.

Sure, but they are related. You grab and defend the land and then put in place your desired form of government. It is through strength that the process is initiated and maintained-- historically.

I agree. Lebanon not only needs the legitimate government to stand, but it must be powerful enough to exert control over it’s own domain. This is actually one of the tests of whether a government governs. Right now, Lebanon has failed to do this, to govern it’s own land.

Hopefully, if Hezbollah is weakened enough, the Lebanese government can take control of it’s entire claimed geography and enforce it’s policies and allow a peace to develop.

It is still about power. If Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese government, and works counter to it, then the government is effectively unable to govern. Israel is in the process of trying to do something about this situation.

External parties may also be trying to influence the balance of power…

159

[quote]doogie wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
I think Israel let the soldiers get captured to give them an excuse to escalate their conflict with Hezbollah.

I think you’re a moron.[/quote]

Project much?

160

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I thought this topic was about Lebanon. He is trying to discredit Lebanon’s legitimate government in his support for Hezbollah to do whatever the fuck they want to.

No, I think the point he made about the rise of government or autonomy is not support for Hezbollah, it is simply a reflection on world history, which might be an encouraging principle for the actions of people like Hezbollah.
[/quote]
Given the nature of all his recent posts I took it as his supporting Hezbollah.

Of course. Strength is important if you are to survive.

[quote]
That is why Lebanon needs their legitimate government to stand and Hezbollah to fall if they are to have any hope of freedom and prosperity on the future.

I agree. Lebanon not only needs the legitimate government to stand, but it must be powerful enough to exert control over it’s own domain. This is actually one of the tests of whether a government governs. Right now, Lebanon has failed to do this, to govern it’s own land.

Hopefully, if Hezbollah is weakened enough, the Lebanese government can take control of it’s entire claimed geography and enforce it’s policies and allow a peace to develop.

It is still about power. If Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese government, and works counter to it, then the government is effectively unable to govern. Israel is in the process of trying to do something about this situation.

External parties may also be trying to influence the balance of power…[/quote]

Exactly.