[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
I agree, however they have always been attacked since it’s inception over religion. We simply cannot “negotiate” or “debate” their issues. Truces NEVER hit the actual issue, which is Anti-Semitism.
I for one, fear that Hezzies will start up from the North, and then we will have the media blitz of civilian casualties that will be blamed on the Isralis by defending itself.
See, the world wants to understand this all and just talk. This can not work because of the simple nature of the religious issues does not allow for anyone to logically come up with solutions.
Isreal, in order to protect itself from the rockets will need to occupy a lot of territory outside it’s borders once again.
Occupation is the only way to protect themselves. I say go get it done.
Yea, because using force has worked out so well for the region in the past.
Force has worked well, but the benefits derived have been negated by naive do-gooders like Jimmy Carter.
Force hasn’t worked well- the entire Arab world hates them, and their hate increases with every one of these wars that come on. A lasting peace will only be achieved through diplomacy. [/quote]
Force has worked very well for the Israelis. The combined ass-kickings of the 1967 and 1973 wars put the Arab countries in check, none of them want a repeat.
Diplomacy is way overrated. In our modern era, diplomacy has become so badly misunderstood and misused that instead of being a peaceful solution it is a dangerous problem.
In order for diplomacy to work there must be conditions on the ground that favor it’s success. Today very few people are realistic enough to accept this fact.
In some ways diplomacy is just like boxing, a good boxer will use timing to look for or create openings. If you just go wildly flailing in you might connect with something, but you are also likely to run into something and get knocked out.
Diplomacy works best when it is used strategically and with timing. Timing is the most maligned aspect of diplomacy today. Whenever there is a crisis in the world there is a kneejerk reaction of “send in the diplomats” with absolutely no regard as to whether they will make things better or worse. In fact the prevailing mentality is the diplomats can’t make things worse so there is no harm in sending them immediately.
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If they can do it in Northern Ireland, they can do it in Israel. However, both sides must make concessions. Until they are willing to do that, America should have nothing to do with it, and support neither side. Fuck Israel- they are the bullies on the block. And fuck the Palestinians, because they never listen to cease fires, and won’t leave Israel alone.
As difficult and intractable as they were, the Irish troubles were nowhere near as bad as what the Jews have to deal with from the Muslims.
Says who? And I’m not just talking about the Troubles, I’m talking about the entire Irish conflict.
There were generations upon generations of hatred stacked up in Northern Ireland, based not only on religious differences, but also the political differences of those involved.
On top of that, you had GB pulling strings and triggers all the time, provoking more hatred and anger.
The Northern Ireland issue had been going on for far longer than the Israeli conflict with the Arab world. If you’re looking at strictly death tolls from the last 100 years, than of course the Israeli-Arab conflict is worse.
If you’re looking at it through the lens of history, then the Ireland/Great Britain one is far worse. From the initial wars for Irish freedom all the way to now, it’s 800 years of hatred and anger.
And yet, somehow, they live in relative peace now, with the situation getting better instead of worse (finally). [/quote]
The Muslims have had it in for the Jews ever since the time of Mohammad. Hatred for the Jews is written into the Koran.
The Protestant and Roman Catholic bibles are essentially the same and don’t teach hatred for one another.
The conflicts between the Irish, Scots and English go back to when they were Saxons and Celts, then Normans and Saxons then Normans and Celts that is true. But the Irish ruled Ireland up until Cromwell invaded in the 17th century. It was more like 400 years and the loyalists Irish were actually Scots who are Celts just like the Irish. That is why Scottish and Irish family names are the same except for being a Mac or a Mc.
There is a different dynamic between the Jews and Muslims that makes it a lot more intractable.
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The only concession the Jews can make that will fully satisfy the Arabs is to give the entire country to them and go back to being the wandering Jews.
Maybe for some. But there are more level headed minds that will eventually prevail, if only because they have to. I’m not saying when or how it will happen, but as I said before, a lasting peace can only be negotiated. [/quote]
Level headed minds have rarely (if ever) prevailed in the Islamic world. You are engaging in wishful thinking that ignores history.
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No the Israelis are not the bullies. It was the Arabs who invaded Israel in 1948 because the UN recognized it as a country.
Right. But one could say it was rightfully so- who the fuck gets to just take land and make it a country based on the ramblings of novel? [/quote]
What novel is that? The Jews have a history on that land that goes all the way back to when they were Canaanites. Ottoman census records from the 19th century show that even then the majority of people in Jerusalem were Jewish. If the ethnic cleansings of Mohammad hadn’t happened the Jews probably would have reestablished the state of Israel long ago.
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That’d be like if the British came and said, “We’re taking New Jersey back. We know you live here, but we used to own it, and there’s this mass of people who need somewhere to live, and their magic book said that NJ was the place. Sorry.”
See how many wars would come of that. [/quote]
Your analogy is flawed. The Indians asking for New Jersey back would be much more accurate. I think they would have a legitimate case. Especially if the were driven out of America entirely and had to wander the world stateless and preyed upon while New Jersey sat empty and unoccupied.
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And who pays the price? Us, for supporting this little shitbag country.
Again- until both make concessions, we shouldn’t support either side.
America would not be a country if it wasn’t for the Jews financing the revolution. It is sad that many Americans are such ingrates.
Haym Solomon (or Salomon) (1740?1785) was a Polish Jew who immigrated to New York during the period of the American Revolution, and who became a prime financier of the American side during the American Revolutionary War against Great Britain.
Simply put, I don’t give a fuck. It took many generations of people many years to make America what it is. It wouldn’t be what it is without the influence of slaveholding WASPs, the poor working Irish, Polish dockworkers, German steel workers, etc. [/quote]
Irish didn’t start coming here in great numbers until the middle of the 19th century, when the United States was already a country.
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Do the Jews have a part in that? Of course. But the financing of the Revolution would have meant nothing without the American men who laid their lives down to make something of it.
Lafayette and Von Steuben had a big part in the Revolution to. That doesn’t mean we unequivocally support the French, and it didn’t stop us from having two wars with Germany. I’m not sure where that argument is going- one man doesn’t dictate the foreign policy of a country 250 years later. [/quote]
Haym Solomon organized fund raising in synagogues all across Europe. He was just one man but he organized the support of the Jewish people. Without that money there would not have been supplies for the patriots to fight.
Well we certainly did repay the French in kind.
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And I do hope that you’re not calling me an ingrate. [/quote]
I won’t call you names, I think you are one of the cooler people here.
However you did express a common sentiment that ignores the tremendous support the Jews gave to getting the American project off of the ground. It does come across as ingratitude.
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The concession that needs to be made is the Muslim Arabs need to concede that violence is not getting them anywhere. Which is not going to happen because violence and hatred is too deeply ingrained into their religion.
If you believe that it’s a problem with their religion, then I don’t know what to tell you. No religion is inherently violent- it’s only violent men that get their hands on it and twist it to meet their needs. [/quote]
Now you are starting to come around. Until the rest of the world faces up to the fact that Islam is the most important factor driving Arab hatred the international community will be unable to come up with any answers.
You are projecting what you want to believe about religion onto the Muslims. There is no reason why a religion cannot be inherently violent. Just look at what the Aztecs or Mayans used to do with their prisoners of war.
Islam is what is driving the violence. Believe it or not there actually are or at least were a lot of Christian Palestinians. Christian Palestinians have been attacked and killed by the Muslims Palestinians. So wake up and realize that it isn’t just the Jews they hate.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0905/pipes2005_09_13.php3
World silent after Muslim gang attacks ?Palestinian? Christian village
http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jul2007.htm
Christian monastery attacked in Gaza
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - June 19, 2007
During the recent fighting in Gaza between Hamas and Fatah, the Christian community in Gaza was also targeted. The Palestinian paper Al-Ayyam reported that ?Armed masked men? stole, destroyed and burned down a monastery and a church school in Gaza, after they bombed the main gate with RPG shells? they destroyed the main gate of the monastery with an RPG shell, and then entered the church and destroyed everything in the monastery: The crosses, the holy books, computers and photocopy machines." They appeared to be members of Hamas? Al-Qassam Brigades, however, the Hamas has directed the blame at the Palestinian Authority police.
It should be noted that while this may have been a Hamas attack on the church, the Christian community has been suffering under Fatah rule as well. Ever since the West Bank cities were given over from Israel to the Palestinian Authority the Christian population has been living under very difficult conditions.
Palestinian writer Khaled Abu Toameh recently reported in The Jerusalem Post on the ruin of the Christian community of Bethlehem:
"The conditions of Christians in Bethlehem and its surroundings had deteriorated ever since the area was handed over [from Israel] to the PA in 1995?. 'Every day we hear of another Christian family that has immigrated to the US, Canada or Latin America? The Christians today make up less than 15 percent of the population'? "Samir Qumsiyeh [said]: "I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem."
When the West Bank was under Israeli administration the Christian population of Bethlehem was over 60%.
This attack on the Gaza church, though more aggressive than the actions in Bethlehem, seem to be part of a Palestinian pattern of marginalizing the Christian community.
The article from Al-Ayyam appears below. As the story of the Christian community in Bethlehem is important for the understanding of the Christian predicament under the Palestinian Authority, The Jerusalem Post article has likewise been reprinted below.
Al-Ayyam, June 18, 2007
Armed masked men, said to be part of Al-Qassam [Hamas] Operational Force, stole, destroyed and burned down a monastery and a church school in Gaza, after they bombed the main gate with RPG shells?
Father Manuel Muslem, the leader of the Latin community in Gaza, said that the armed men who carried all sorts of weapons, including machine guns and RPG launchers, burst in to the monastery and the Al-Wardiya Church school yesterday after they destroyed the main gate of the monastery with an RPG shell, and then entered the church and destroyed everything in the monastery: The crosses, the holy books, computers and photocopy machines? And he explained that the damage caused to the monastery, only on the inside, will require over 100,000 Jordanian Dinar to restore, all the more so the walls and the outer gates which were damaged by the shells and were entirely destroyed.
Muslem indicated that he got a phone call from President Mahmoud Abbas, who expressed his identification and his love for the people of the Christian community? similarly, President Abbas promised the church that the [Palestinian] Authority will be the faithful protector to its people, without differentiating between a Christian and a Muslim.
In a response to the blame directed at the [Hamas] Al-Qassam Brigades and the Operational Force? the spokesman of the Operational Force, Islam Shahwan, said that the events of theft, destruction and burning of some of the institutions are absolutely not part of the values and measures of our people?
[That] those who attacked the Al-Wardiya Church school wore the clothes of the Operational Force and bore symbols saying ?Al-Qassam,? Shahwan explained that, concerning the Al-Qassam Brigades, since there was a agreement with them, and they completely left the street, only men of the Operational Force and of the Palestinian police stayed there. He denied [the claim] that this destructive way is the way of the Operational Force.
[Al-Ayyam, June 18, 2007]
The Jerusalem Post
Bethlehem Christians claim persecution
Jan. 25, 2007
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH
A number of Christian families have finally decided to break their silence and talk openly about what they describe as Muslim persecution of the Christian minority in this city. The move comes as a result of increased attacks on Christians by Muslims over the past few months. The families said they wrote letters to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, the Vatican, Church leaders and European governments complaining about the attacks, but their appeals have fallen on deaf ears. According to the families, many Christians have long been afraid to complain in public about the campaign of "intimidation" for fear of retaliation by their Muslim neighbors and being branded "collaborators" with Israel. But following an increase in attacks on Christian-owned property in the city over the past few months, some Christians are no longer afraid to talk about the ultra-sensitive issue. And they are talking openly about leaving the city.
"The situation is very dangerous," said Samir Qumsiyeh, owner of the Beit Sahur-based private Al-Mahd (Nativity) TV station. "I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem. Then you will need a torch to find a Christian here. This is a very sad situation." Qumsiyeh, one of the few Christians willing to speak about the harsh conditions of their community, has been the subject of numerous death threats. His house was recently attacked with fire-bombs, but no one was hurt.
Qumsiyeh said he has documented more than 160 incidents of attacks on Christians in the area in recent years. He said a monk was recently roughed up for trying to prevent a group of Muslim men from seizing lands owned by Christians in Beit Sahur.
Thieves have targeted the homes of many Christian families and a "land mafia" has succeeded in laying its hands on vast areas of land belonging to Christians, he added.
Fuad and Georgette Lama woke up one morning last September to discover that Muslims from a nearby village had fenced off their family's six-dunam plot in the Karkafa suburb south of Bethlehem.
"A lawyer and an official with the Palestinian Authority just came and took our land," said 69-year-old Georgette Lama.
The couple was later approached by senior PA security officers who offered to help them kick out the intruders from the land. "We paid them $1,000 so they could help us regain our land," she said, almost in tears.
"Instead of giving us back our land, they simply decided to keep it for themselves. They even destroyed all the olive trees and divided the land into small plots, apparently so that they could offer each for sale."
When her 72-year-old husband, Fuad, went to the land to ask the intruders to leave, he was severely beaten and threatened with guns. "My husband is after heart surgery and they still beat him," Georgette Lama said. "These people have no heart. We're afraid to go to our land because they will shoot at us. Ever since the beating, my husband is in a state of trauma and has difficulties talking."
The Lamas have since knocked on the doors of scores of PA officials in Bethlehem seeking their intervention, but to no avail. At one stage, they sent a letter to Abbas, who promised to launch an investigation. "We heard that President Mahmoud Abbas is taking our case very seriously," said Georgette Lama. "But until now he hasn't done anything to help us get our land back. We are very concerned because we're not the only ones suffering from this phenomenon. Most Christians are afraid to speak, but I don't care because we have nothing more to lose."
The couple's Christian neighbor, Edward Salama, said the problem in the city was the absence of law and order. "We are living in a state of chaos and lawlessness," he said. "The police are afraid of the thugs who are taking our lands." Salama expressed deep concern over the conditions of Christians in Bethlehem, noting that many were leaving the country as a result of the deterioration. "When I see what's happening to Christians here, I worry a lot for our future," he said. "They are targeting Christians, because we are seen as weak."
The Lamas said they decided to go public with the hope that the international community would intervene with the PA to halt the land-grab. "We will fight and fight until we recover our land," Fuad Lama said. "We will resort to the courts and to the public opinion for help.
"Unfortunately, Christian leaders and spokesmen are afraid to talk about the problems we are facing. We know of three other Christian families - Salameh, Kawwas and Asfour - whose lands were also illegally seized by Muslims."
A Christian businessman who asked not to be identified said the conditions of Christians in Bethlehem and its surroundings had deteriorated ever since the area was handed over to the PA in 1995. "Every day we hear of another Christian family that has immigrated to the US, Canada or Latin America," he said. "The Christians today make up less than 15 percent of the population."
People are running away because the Palestinian government isn't doing anything to protect them and their property against Muslim thugs. Of course not all the Muslims are responsible, but there is a general feeling that Christians have become easy prey."
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In this case (similar to that of Northern Ireland again) religion and nationalism has been twisted together to form the backbone of the Arab resistance to Israel. That’s a strong bond that will be difficult to break. However, eventually, reasonable people will come together to fix this- until then, blood will be shed.
But to pretend that Israel is the innocent weakling cowering in the corner is hard to believe, especially when they’re rolling on Palestinians with tanks and aircraft strikes. [/quote]
I am not pretending anything, you are the one who is pretending. You are pretending that somehow it is the fault of the Jews that Muslims have so much hatred. The weaponry the Israelis have available in no way incriminates them. Your assumption that the Israelis having tanks automatically makes the guilty is baseless and irrational.
Christian Palestinians don’t have tanks or F-16’s but they get attacked by Muslim Palestinians too. So your assertion is refuted.
