Israel: Give Me A Motive!

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?

I don’t know for sure but we could start with six million dead Jews and go from there. I would have to say the Muslims are way ahead…

You’ve had very good comments in this thread. But don’t be disingenuous. As much as many Muslim groups would like to see the utter destruction of the Jews, they were not the instigators of the Holocaust. Not that there weren’t strong connections between Muslim governments (and some Muslim people)and the Nazis. But that holds equally true for many Nazi supporters and sympatizers at the time.[/quote]

You should study the history of Yasser Arafat’s uncle a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini (a.k.a. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). He was Adolf Hitlers envoy to the middle east. He was the one who recruited hundreds of thousands of Muslims to join the Waffen SS.

The deal he made with Hitler is he would recruit Muslims to join the SS if Hitler would implement the final solution. Palestinians and other Muslims were active participants in the holocaust.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was a major participant in the Holocaust. On July 1, 1937, the British-appointed Mufti asked the German Consul-General of Palestine “to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews.” Following this meeting, the Mufti was visited in Palestine by Adolf Eichmann, who was getting “acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people.” Around the time of Eichmann´s visit, a prolonged and organized campaign of atrocities against the Jews of Palestine was launched.

Hitler and the Mufti were planning to first exterminate the Jews of Europe and then the Jews of the Middle East. The Mufti, who visited Nazi death camps several times, organized support for the Nazis from amongst Muslims in Russia, the Balkans, and the Middle East. He headed the “Arab Bureau” in Berlin, where he directed a massive network of Arab-Nazi collaborators. He organized tens of thousands of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims into military units known as Handschar divisions, which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies, and he attempted to organize an Arab-Nazi Legion. Handschar fighters would be discovered battling against Israeli independence in 1948.

In 1943, in a speech in Berlin, the Mufti stated: “The Treaty of Versailles was a disaster for the Germans as well as for the Arabs. But the Germans know how to get rid of the Jews. It is that which brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp… up to today.”

On March 1, 1944, in a radio broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated: “Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.” The Mufti initiated some of the most virulently pro-Nazi and Jew-hating broadcasts in history.

Declared a war criminal at Nuremberg, he would spend the rest of his life living in opulence in Cairo. His broadcasts, pamphlets, intelligence network and sabotage against Israel would continue after his death in 1974. In his memoirs, he wrote, "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations, and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews.

The answer I got was: ´The Jews are yours.´"

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Force has worked very well for the Israelis. The combined ass-kickings of the 1967 and 1973 wars put the Arab countries in check, none of them want a repeat.

Yes and no. For someone who rides on the high horse of history, you should know 1973 was a near run thing (Israel even considered the “Samson Option”). And Egypt basically won, in the Clausewitzian sense that it achieved its political objectives (got the Sinai back eventually). Never mind the unintended consequences of 1967, like say, Hamas rockets. [/quote]

The Israelis ended the 1973 war by letting it be known that they were getting their nuclear arsenal ready. Which shows just how retarded the Arabs are continuing with the belief that they are going to push the Jews off of that land without getting themselves annihilated.

Americans voted for a Democrat president and the Jews are a major Democrat voting bloc. They knew what they were getting into voting for a Democrat. So that theory is dis proven.

[quote]Terrace Lad wrote:
Jews have poretty mutch been a minority in that region since the revolt of Simon Bar Kokhba.[/quote]

Actually that is not true. There was a substantial Jewish population even after that.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?

I don’t know for sure but we could start with six million dead Jews and go from there. I would have to say the Muslims are way ahead…

You’ve had very good comments in this thread. But don’t be disingenuous. As much as many Muslim groups would like to see the utter destruction of the Jews, they were not the instigators of the Holocaust. Not that there weren’t strong connections between Muslim governments (and some Muslim people)and the Nazis. But that holds equally true for many Nazi supporters and sympatizers at the time.

You should study the history of Yasser Arafat’s uncle a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini (a.k.a. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). He was Adolf Hitlers envoy to the middle east. He was the one who recruited hundreds of thousands of Muslims to join the Waffen SS.

The deal he made with Hitler is he would recruit Muslims to join the SS if Hitler would implement the final solution. Palestinians and other Muslims were active participants in the holocaust.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was a major participant in the Holocaust. On July 1, 1937, the British-appointed Mufti asked the German Consul-General of Palestine “to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews.” Following this meeting, the Mufti was visited in Palestine by Adolf Eichmann, who was getting “acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people.” Around the time of Eichmann´s visit, a prolonged and organized campaign of atrocities against the Jews of Palestine was launched.

Hitler and the Mufti were planning to first exterminate the Jews of Europe and then the Jews of the Middle East. The Mufti, who visited Nazi death camps several times, organized support for the Nazis from amongst Muslims in Russia, the Balkans, and the Middle East. He headed the “Arab Bureau” in Berlin, where he directed a massive network of Arab-Nazi collaborators. He organized tens of thousands of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims into military units known as Handschar divisions, which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies, and he attempted to organize an Arab-Nazi Legion. Handschar fighters would be discovered battling against Israeli independence in 1948.

In 1943, in a speech in Berlin, the Mufti stated: “The Treaty of Versailles was a disaster for the Germans as well as for the Arabs. But the Germans know how to get rid of the Jews. It is that which brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp… up to today.”

On March 1, 1944, in a radio broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated: “Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.” The Mufti initiated some of the most virulently pro-Nazi and Jew-hating broadcasts in history.

Declared a war criminal at Nuremberg, he would spend the rest of his life living in opulence in Cairo. His broadcasts, pamphlets, intelligence network and sabotage against Israel would continue after his death in 1974. In his memoirs, he wrote, "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations, and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews.

The answer I got was: ´The Jews are yours.´"
[/quote]

This is pretty mutch contradictory with the way Nazi Germany collaborated with the Zionist leadership before and during the war.

IIA - The Myths of Zionist Anti-Fascism ( part of the text )

As for an extermination of Jews… there’ s still no official document witch states that the " Final Solution " would mean the physical extermination of the Jews. However, " territoriale Endlosung " appears in the documents witch supports the deportation of all integrationist Jews to Madagascar, later to the far corners of Russia. ( of course, these plans could be fulfilled only after the war ) Moshe Zimmermann states that if the extermination of Jews was the objecyive then Hitler would not have waited two and a half years for the Nurnberg laws to appear, he would not have needed any laws at all.

Leuchter did a study in 1988. If Zyklon B is used as means of execution there are a few technical conditions that need to be satisfied: first of all, to provide proper ventilation for the next execution to take place, at least 10 hours time is needed for the gas to exit the room ( although Hoss states that after 30 minutes soldiers entered the chambers and hauled away the corpses, meanwhile eating and drinking - no gasmasks! ); furthermore the walls must be isolated with epoxide and stainless steel and the doors with azbest, neoprene or teflon filling - none of these have been found in the supposed gaschambers of Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek.
He should know, since he used to council teh states of Missouri, California and North - Carolina in the executions with Zyklon B. Most of those states later refrained from using that method of execution since the gas itself and the technical requirements are too expensive. I don’ t see why Hitler would waste money on that and not the war effort.

I don’ t understand why lies must be used to combat the persecution of Jews and their use as expendable slave labour. The truth alone is enough for condemnation. But hey, if money is at stake, than fiction goes to.

As far as the Mufti and his ravings are concerned, it seems that Hitler used their hatred to bolster the ranks of the SS Handzar, without giving jack shit on what he kept raving about extermination.

[quote]Terrace Lad wrote:
Sifu wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?

I don’t know for sure but we could start with six million dead Jews and go from there. I would have to say the Muslims are way ahead…

You’ve had very good comments in this thread. But don’t be disingenuous. As much as many Muslim groups would like to see the utter destruction of the Jews, they were not the instigators of the Holocaust. Not that there weren’t strong connections between Muslim governments (and some Muslim people)and the Nazis. But that holds equally true for many Nazi supporters and sympatizers at the time.

You should study the history of Yasser Arafat’s uncle a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini (a.k.a. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). He was Adolf Hitlers envoy to the middle east. He was the one who recruited hundreds of thousands of Muslims to join the Waffen SS.

The deal he made with Hitler is he would recruit Muslims to join the SS if Hitler would implement the final solution. Palestinians and other Muslims were active participants in the holocaust.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was a major participant in the Holocaust. On July 1, 1937, the British-appointed Mufti asked the German Consul-General of Palestine “to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews.” Following this meeting, the Mufti was visited in Palestine by Adolf Eichmann, who was getting “acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people.” Around the time of Eichmann´s visit, a prolonged and organized campaign of atrocities against the Jews of Palestine was launched.

Hitler and the Mufti were planning to first exterminate the Jews of Europe and then the Jews of the Middle East. The Mufti, who visited Nazi death camps several times, organized support for the Nazis from amongst Muslims in Russia, the Balkans, and the Middle East. He headed the “Arab Bureau” in Berlin, where he directed a massive network of Arab-Nazi collaborators. He organized tens of thousands of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims into military units known as Handschar divisions, which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies, and he attempted to organize an Arab-Nazi Legion. Handschar fighters would be discovered battling against Israeli independence in 1948.

In 1943, in a speech in Berlin, the Mufti stated: “The Treaty of Versailles was a disaster for the Germans as well as for the Arabs. But the Germans know how to get rid of the Jews. It is that which brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp… up to today.”

On March 1, 1944, in a radio broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated: “Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.” The Mufti initiated some of the most virulently pro-Nazi and Jew-hating broadcasts in history.

Declared a war criminal at Nuremberg, he would spend the rest of his life living in opulence in Cairo. His broadcasts, pamphlets, intelligence network and sabotage against Israel would continue after his death in 1974. In his memoirs, he wrote, "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations, and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews.

The answer I got was: ´The Jews are yours.´"

This is pretty mutch contradictory with the way Nazi Germany collaborated with the Zionist leadership before and during the war.

IIA - The Myths of Zionist Anti-Fascism ( part of the text )

As for an extermination of Jews… there’ s still no official document witch states that the " Final Solution " would mean the physical extermination of the Jews. However, " territoriale Endlosung " appears in the documents witch supports the deportation of all integrationist Jews to Madagascar, later to the far corners of Russia. ( of course, these plans could be fulfilled only after the war ) Moshe Zimmermann states that if the extermination of Jews was the objecyive then Hitler would not have waited two and a half years for the Nurnberg laws to appear, he would not have needed any laws at all.

Leuchter did a study in 1988. If Zyklon B is used as means of execution there are a few technical conditions that need to be satisfied: first of all, to provide proper ventilation for the next execution to take place, at least 10 hours time is needed for the gas to exit the room ( although Hoss states that after 30 minutes soldiers entered the chambers and hauled away the corpses, meanwhile eating and drinking - no gasmasks! ); furthermore the walls must be isolated with epoxide and stainless steel and the doors with azbest, neoprene or teflon filling - none of these have been found in the supposed gaschambers of Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek.
He should know, since he used to council teh states of Missouri, California and North - Carolina in the executions with Zyklon B. Most of those states later refrained from using that method of execution since the gas itself and the technical requirements are too expensive. I don’ t see why Hitler would waste money on that and not the war effort.

I don’ t understand why lies must be used to combat the persecution of Jews and their use as expendable slave labour. The truth alone is enough for condemnation. But hey, if money is at stake, than fiction goes to.

As far as the Mufti and his ravings are concerned, it seems that Hitler used their hatred to bolster the ranks of the SS Handzar, without giving jack shit on what he kept raving about extermination.[/quote]

Are you trying to suggest that you think the holocaust is a myth?

[quote]Terrace Lad wrote:
Sifu wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?

I don’t know for sure but we could start with six million dead Jews and go from there. I would have to say the Muslims are way ahead…

You’ve had very good comments in this thread. But don’t be disingenuous. As much as many Muslim groups would like to see the utter destruction of the Jews, they were not the instigators of the Holocaust. Not that there weren’t strong connections between Muslim governments (and some Muslim people)and the Nazis. But that holds equally true for many Nazi supporters and sympatizers at the time.

You should study the history of Yasser Arafat’s uncle a man named Haj Amin al-Husseini (a.k.a. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). He was Adolf Hitlers envoy to the middle east. He was the one who recruited hundreds of thousands of Muslims to join the Waffen SS.

The deal he made with Hitler is he would recruit Muslims to join the SS if Hitler would implement the final solution. Palestinians and other Muslims were active participants in the holocaust.

http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/mohammedism/mohammedism22.html

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, was a major participant in the Holocaust. On July 1, 1937, the British-appointed Mufti asked the German Consul-General of Palestine “to what extent the Third Reich was prepared to support the Arab movement against the Jews.” Following this meeting, the Mufti was visited in Palestine by Adolf Eichmann, who was getting “acquainted with the country and the life and to establish contact with people.” Around the time of Eichmann´s visit, a prolonged and organized campaign of atrocities against the Jews of Palestine was launched.

Hitler and the Mufti were planning to first exterminate the Jews of Europe and then the Jews of the Middle East. The Mufti, who visited Nazi death camps several times, organized support for the Nazis from amongst Muslims in Russia, the Balkans, and the Middle East. He headed the “Arab Bureau” in Berlin, where he directed a massive network of Arab-Nazi collaborators. He organized tens of thousands of Bosnian and Albanian Muslims into military units known as Handschar divisions, which carried out atrocities against Yugoslav Jews, Serbs and Gypsies, and he attempted to organize an Arab-Nazi Legion. Handschar fighters would be discovered battling against Israeli independence in 1948.

In 1943, in a speech in Berlin, the Mufti stated: “The Treaty of Versailles was a disaster for the Germans as well as for the Arabs. But the Germans know how to get rid of the Jews. It is that which brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp… up to today.”

On March 1, 1944, in a radio broadcast to the Arab people from Berlin, the Mufti stated: “Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.” The Mufti initiated some of the most virulently pro-Nazi and Jew-hating broadcasts in history.

Declared a war criminal at Nuremberg, he would spend the rest of his life living in opulence in Cairo. His broadcasts, pamphlets, intelligence network and sabotage against Israel would continue after his death in 1974. In his memoirs, he wrote, "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations, and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews.

The answer I got was: ´The Jews are yours.´"

This is pretty mutch contradictory with the way Nazi Germany collaborated with the Zionist leadership before and during the war.

IIA - The Myths of Zionist Anti-Fascism ( part of the text )

As for an extermination of Jews… there’ s still no official document witch states that the " Final Solution " would mean the physical extermination of the Jews. However, " territoriale Endlosung " appears in the documents witch supports the deportation of all integrationist Jews to Madagascar, later to the far corners of Russia. ( of course, these plans could be fulfilled only after the war ) Moshe Zimmermann states that if the extermination of Jews was the objecyive then Hitler would not have waited two and a half years for the Nurnberg laws to appear, he would not have needed any laws at all.

Leuchter did a study in 1988. If Zyklon B is used as means of execution there are a few technical conditions that need to be satisfied: first of all, to provide proper ventilation for the next execution to take place, at least 10 hours time is needed for the gas to exit the room ( although Hoss states that after 30 minutes soldiers entered the chambers and hauled away the corpses, meanwhile eating and drinking - no gasmasks! ); furthermore the walls must be isolated with epoxide and stainless steel and the doors with azbest, neoprene or teflon filling - none of these have been found in the supposed gaschambers of Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek.
He should know, since he used to council teh states of Missouri, California and North - Carolina in the executions with Zyklon B. Most of those states later refrained from using that method of execution since the gas itself and the technical requirements are too expensive. I don’ t see why Hitler would waste money on that and not the war effort.

I don’ t understand why lies must be used to combat the persecution of Jews and their use as expendable slave labour. The truth alone is enough for condemnation. But hey, if money is at stake, than fiction goes to.

As far as the Mufti and his ravings are concerned, it seems that Hitler used their hatred to bolster the ranks of the SS Handzar, without giving jack shit on what he kept raving about extermination.[/quote]

Are you now preparing to deny the Holocaust? You are a worthless piece of shit! Kill yourself. Even your ridiculous Norman Finkelstein would not go so far. Both his parents were Holocaust survivors.

No one respond to this asshole’s posts, anymore. No amount of evidence will convince him.

Instead of childish name calls in lack of any other thing to do, I would rather look at solid, physical evidence. Read my post over and over again and maybe you’ ll understand, instead of activating a subconscious alarm that has been washed into your head for generations.

Nobody can deny the persecution of the Jews. However, the attempts at forging their persecution into a historically unique, unprecedented and unscaled act of inhumanity is wrong and it injures history as a science. The biblical term of the " holocaust " already tries to put an undisputed seal on the event. More so, more inhumane acts have been commited by the American settlers against the indigenous Americans and countless more native Americans died than Jews during WW2. Same can be said about the black people and the slavetrade. But evenso, no biblical terms have been used to coin these happenings and none of them have been forged and pumped up so comercially like the persecution of Jews during the second world war, it is disturbing. Even more disgusting, acts like Wiesel and Wiesenthal only extend the persecutions to the Jewish community and they otherwise see it irrelevant. It is nothing more than an ideological weapon and such disturbing things do nothing more than just diminish and trivialize the drama that the actually persecuted Jews suffered.

This is an event witch is mainly being supported by pieces of fiction like the works of Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal and the diary of Anne Frank. And to most people literature means more than solid facts based on physics, chemistry and common sense, it’ s pretty sad.

For the final time, the persecution of Jews is undeniable, but this fact has no right to be elevated among other similar acts witch are far more grave ( much more casualties, among more ) and the ridiculous way the persecution has been pumped up by the media and mainstream historians backing a political agenda, the way valid historical facts are being silenced, historians threatened and careers ruined is troubling and gravely wrong.

Your pathetic namecalling only demonstrates that you do not argue or counterargue for the sake of historical accuracy or any kind of accuracy. You just protect your own interests, wright or wrong, legitimate or not. Because of this, you are irrelevant.

Unique? No, there have been other holocausts and genocides. And they are still going on in Africa and elsewhere. And that’s not something Weisel has denied. PURE fabrication on your part. He highlighted unique elements of the Holocaust but never undermined or tried to minimize the suffering of other, such as the Serbs. And in fact has explicitly renounced the Armenian Genocide. (This is even when others such as Gunter Lewy reject that this should be considered a genocide because the “tremendous massacres” were not “a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government.”)

You implied that Jews were merely enslaved. The evidence that they were gassed and otherwise disposed of in a mass effort at complete eradication is indisuptable. The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime. It is patently ridiculous that you are complaining about the NAME. And no one but YOU is using the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust to suggest that the atrocities other peoples suffered are less reprehensible. Thousands of other HISTORICAL documents confirm its existence. To say nothing of the fact that the Diary of Anne Frank was by no means a work of fiction. Other Holocaust deniers have tried to say the same. Except the man who arrested Anne Frank confirmed it. And it has been adjudicated as authenthic in court after being matched to letters known to be written by Anne Frank. Later, it was confirmed after forensic studies.

And once again your FACTS are simply wrong. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The decision to systematically kill the Jews of Europe was made by the time of, or at the Wannsee conference, which took place in Berlin, in the Wannsee Villa on January 20, 1942. During the conference, there was a discussion held by a group of German Nazi officials to decide on the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question” (“Endlösung der Judenfrage” in German). A surviving copy of the minutes of this meeting was found by the Allies in 1947. The original German copies are housed in the United States National Archives. English translations are available online and in print for anyone who cares to look.

This is the last post I will ever make to you. Time to run along to a neo-Nazi/white supremacist meeting Just The Facts/Terrace Lad.

I found the part about Zyklon-B being usable only under certain strict conditions to be interesting. Anyone got a link?

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Unique? No, there have been other holocausts and genocides. And they are still going on in Africa and elsewhere. And that’s not something Weisel has denied. PURE fabrication on your part. He highlighted unique elements of the Holocaust but never undermined or tried to minimize the suffering of other, such as the Serbs.

And in fact has explicitly renounced the Armenian Genocide.

You implied that Jews were merely enslaved. The evidence that they were gassed and otherwise disposed of in a mass effort at complete eradication is indisuptable. The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime. It is patently ridiculous that you are complaining about the NAME. And no one but YOU is using the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust to suggest that the atrocities other peoples suffered are less reprehensible.

Thousands of other HISTORICAL documents confirm its existence. To say nothing of the fact that the Diary of Anne Frank was by no means a work of fiction. Other Holocaust deniers have tried to say the same.

Except the man who arrested Anne Frank confirmed it. And it has been adjudicated as authenthic in court after being matched to letters known to be written by Anne Frank. Later, it was confirmed after forensic studies.

And once again your FACTS are simply wrong. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. The decision to systematically kill the Jews of Europe was made by the time of, or at the Wannsee conference, which took place in Berlin, in the Wannsee Villa on January 20, 1942. During the conference, there was a discussion held by a group of German Nazi officials to decide on the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question” (“Endlösung der Judenfrage” in German).

A surviving copy of the minutes of this meeting was found by the Allies in 1947. The original German copies are housed in the United States National Archives. English translations are available online and in print for anyone who cares to look.

This is the last post I will ever make to you. Time to run along to a neo-Nazi/white supremacist meeting Just The Facts/Terrace Lad. [/quote]

Cool. After the Hamas propagandist card, you have another ace up your sleeve: white supremacist. FAIL!

You read but you don’ t understand. I did not write that Wiesel denied any other persecutions, i wrote that he never gave other persecutions the same moral value and gravity like the persecution of Jews.

As for the Armenian part of your post: " Wiesel, Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz and Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg withdrew from an international conference on genocide in Tel Aviv because the sponsors, against government urging, included sessions on the Armenian case.

Acting at Israel’s behest, the US Holocaust Council “virtually effaced” mention of the Armenians in the Washington Holocaust Museum; and Jewish lobbyists in Congress blocked a day of remembrance for the Armenian genocide. "

As for the Serbs: some reprisals against the Serb population has been made because of the actions of the Partisans, in parts believed to be partisan’ s nests. Otherwise the Srpski Dobrovoljacki Korpus (Serbische freiwillige Korps) existed and the Partisan sentiment was minimal. The Russisches Schutzkorps Serbien was also active in that area.

The fact that the Slavs were also " a race that had to be eliminated " is also a fabrication. Hell, Shamir also offered the services of the Lehi group to Hitler against the British.

Show me your " facts " when it comes to gassing. I provided some facts against gassing. The only " evidence " that supports the existence of these chambers are the " witness accounts ". Not only are they brittle but they also vary. As for a willing sistematic annihilation: it would also be impractical for hitler to do so, since the Ruhr has been bombed nicely and most of the available working force was on the front.

Therefore the Jews were enslaved and used as an expendable working force. As for the Wannsee text, I shall post about it shortly.

As for the diary and it’ s " forensic evidence ". I know the mainstream consensus as the result of the 1986 testing but there is also another side of the coin: a testing made in the German police criminal laboratory of Wiesbaden. it has been established that a nice portion of ti has been written with a type of ball point pen wich only existed since 1951. I cannot call a work of touching literature as a historical standard.

The name matters alot, marketing proves it.

About the Wannsee text:

The Wannsee text (January 20th 1942)

"In the course of the final solution, Jews will be conveyed under appropriate guidance, towards the East to make use of their labor. They will be separated according to sex. Jews capable of working will be taken in large columns to areas of major works, to build roads, and consequently large numbers will doubtless perish through natural selection.

"Those who will finally remain, who without any doubt will make up the most robust element, must be treated consequently, for they represent a natural selection whose liberation must be considered the germ-cell of a new Jewish development as the experience of history has shown..)" (13-3133)

David Irving:

"I have read the minutes of the Wilhem Strasse trial, the second after that of Nuremberg. There were twelve others afterwards. Not one of them brought testimony according to which the liquidation of the Jews had been discussed at Wannsee." (33-9372-9373)

The Wannsee Protocol consists of the minutes of a conference which took place on January 20th 1942, attended by the Secretaries of State administratively concerned by the solution to the Jewish question, and those heads of departments in charge of its execution. In this text, no mention is made of gas chambers or extermination, but only of the transfer of Jews to Eastern Europe.

These minutes have all the characteristics of an apocryphal document if we are to credit the photocopy of them published in Robert N.W. Kempner’s “Eichmann und Komplizen”, pp. 132 and following (Europa Verlag 1961) : no seal, no date, no signature, ordinary machine type on small format paper, etc…

In any case they make no mention of gas chambers.

In the French versions of it, “die Zuruckdrangung der Juden aus dem Lebensraum des deutschen Volkes” has been translated by “the elimination of the Jews from the vital space of the German people”, as it was in English and in Russian.

The Germans, however, preferred to use other expressions to speak of their decision to drive the Jews out of what they called their “vital space”, expressions like “Auschaltung” (exclusion, eviction, elimination) and especially “Ausrottung” (extirpation,uprooting). It was this last word which was translated as extermination, which is “Vernichtung” in German.

For example : in his speech at Posen before the Obergruppenfuhrer (the Divisional commanders of the Waffen SS) on October 4th 1943, Himmler said :

"Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuirung, die Ausrottung des judischen Volkes...Das judische Volk wird ausgerotten, etc... " 

In the following sentence, he uses the word “Auschaltung…” (P.S.1919 T.XXIX p.145) to clarify his meaning. In other words :

"I am now thinking of the evacuation of the Jews, of the extirpation of the Jewish people, etc... " 

But in the “Eichmann File”, M.Billig translated it as:

"I mean by that the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people." (p.55) and "evacuation of the Jews, IN OTHER WORDS extermination" (p.47).

Another example : in a note dated 16th December 1941 on one of his talks with Hitler (P.S 1517 T.XXVII p.270) Rosenberg uses the expression “Ausrottung das Judentums”.

At the April 17th 1946 session, the American Attorney General Dodd translated it as “Extermination of Jews” (Tome XI,p.562). Rosenberg protested in vain.

"But in the speeches of the Nazis, the expression "Ausrottung des Christentums", which was often used, is always translated as " the extirpation of Christianity from German culture" 

Cf. Revue d’Histoire de la seconde guerre mondiale, October 1st 1958, p.62.

It is when it refers to Judaism (Judentum) or the Jewish people (das judische Volk) that the word “Ausrottung” means extermination and applies to individuals, whereas it refers to entities.

The Wannsee conference of January 20th 1942, where, it was claimed for over a third of a century, the decision to “exterminate” European Jews, disappeared from 1984 on from the writings of even the most ferocious enemies of the “revisionists”. On this point, they too had to “revise” their history : it was at the Stuttgart Congress of May 1984,where that “interpretation” was dropped.

Source : Eberhard Jackerl and Jurgen Rohwer.“Der Mord an der Juden im Zweiten Weltkrieg”('The murder of Jews during the Second World War")
Source : DVA. 1985 p. 67

In 1992, Yehuda Bauer wrote in “The Canadian Jewish News” of January 30th that this interpretation of Wannsee was “silly”.

Finally, the most recent spokesman for the orthodox antirevisionist historians, the chemist Claude Pressac, confirmed this new revision of orthodoxy. He wrote on page 35 of his book :“Les crematoires d’Auschwitz” (CNRS editions, 1993):

"The Wannsee conference was held in Berlin on January 20th. If an action of "driving back" the Jews towards the East was planned, with the evocation of a "natural" elimination through work, nobody then spoke of liquidation on an industrial scale. 

During the days and the weeks that followed, the Auschwitz Bauleitung received neither a call, a telegram or a letter demanding the study of an installation adapted to that end."

And even, in his “recapitulative chronology”, he indicates on January 20th 1942 :

"Wannsee Conference on the driving back of the Jews towards the East" (p.114).

The “extermination” was revised : it was a question of “driving back”.

It is equally remarkable that, in all this book setting itself the goal of “proving” the thesis of extermination, there was no question either of the document which, after that of Wannsee, was supposedly the most decisive: Goering’s letter to Heydrich of July 31st 1941, in which it was asserted that the “final solution” meant “extermination”, and not the transfer out of Europe.

At the time of the Toronto trial in 1988, there was also a controversy concerning the role of the “Eizenzattsgruppen”, a kind of free corps designated by the Hitlerian High Command to annihilate the groups of partisans which formed as soon as the Germans swooped down on Moscow in 1941 ;

These groups would surge behind the German army, trying to destroy its reserves of fuel, its supplies and its communication networks, cutting the Germans off from their rear bases.

This form of resistance proved so effective that Hitler gave the harshest of orders to the “Eizenzattsgruppen”, to kill off the leaders and the political commissars.

There were many Jews among these political commissars, who played a leading role in which they confronted death bravely.

At the Toronto trial, the problem of the participation of these heroic Jews to the resistance against Hitlerism was evoked at great length.

Christie, Zundel’s lawyer, insisted on asking the historian Hilberg, to clarify the meaning of the Nazi orders on this subject.

Christie : The order given to the Einzattsgruppen says : Annihilate the Jewish Bolshevik commissars, and you interpret this as meaning : "Annihilate the Jewish people and the Jewish commissars. Is that correct?

Hilberg : Correct.

Christie : It was therefore said, according to you, that it was not a question of killing the Jews, but the Jewish-Bolshevik political commissars.

Hilberg : The order was given to Himmler to "solve the problem".(4839)

Christie : It concerned the problem of the Jewish-Bolshevik political commissars. Which does not mean : the Jewish problem...Was there not a war on between Communism and Nazism ?

Hilberg : Yes, and the political commissars, at the core of the system, had to be shot.

Christie : This did not mean killing the Jews who were there. Did Hitler think that Bolshevism was of Jewish origin and that all the commissars were Jews?

Hilberg : That was propaganda. But it was the intention from the beginning, since June 22nd 1941.

Christie : Is this an article of faith with you?

Hilberg : No. It's not an article of faith, it's a certainty.

Christie : Can you show me Hitler's second order?

Hilberg : I say that there's a decisive directive from Hitler exposed by Goering to Heydrich on July 31st 1941...It was the text which prepared the Wannsee conference.

Christie : Was it an order or a letter from Hitler?

Hilberg : No.

Christie : You wrote in your book : "Hitler gave this second order. Is that correct?

Hilberg : That is correct.

Christie reverts to the meaning of the word "resettlement" in the East. "Does this mean an order to kill all the Jews?" (4-855)

Hilberg : Resettlement" was a synonym for "deporting the Jews to death camps.

Christie : Wasn't there a plan to deport the Jews to Madagascar ?

The English historian, David Irving, brought the following information, drawn from original sources, to the Toronto trial.

" ...The final solution to the Jewish problem consisted of deporting them to different territories. One of the hypotheses was Madagascar, especially after the fall of France, but the might of the British and later American fleets made this project impossible to carry out.

The only document I possess is a telephone conversation between Prime minister Lammers and the Feurher in the Spring of 1942, and the Feurher answered him that the final solution would be decided upon only after the end of the war.

Heinrich Himmler wrote to the gauleiters that the Feurher, Adolf Hitler, had given him the order to rid Europe of its Jews from West to East, by stages. It was obviously an order of deportation." (33-935 and 9352).

But this involved no order to exterminate the Jews.

No order of this kind was ever given, nor in the archives of the world, including the Jewish archives which cooperated with me. 

I must also emphasize that, in the British archives where we had deciphered the German codes of the S.S. units operating on the Eastern front, even with those English machines for deciphering codes, we did not decipher any code in which Hitler gave the order to kill the Jews. Only historians claiming to read between the lines and giving vent to their indignation have been able to decipher such a meaning. (33-93.76) "


The lawyer, Christie, quotes page 651 of Hilberg’s book in which is written :

"In November 1944, Himmler decided that for all sorts of practical reasons, the Jewish question was solved. On the 25th of the same month, he ordered the dismantling of all the death installations." 

Source : Testimony of Kurt Becher. 8th March 1946. P.S. 3762.

Hilberg recognizes that it was not an order by Himmler (4-861 to 864):

"Becher probably presented it from memory in his testimony. He therefore did not need to use the exact language employed by Himmler." 

One more time, Hilberg said that Becher had said that Himmler had said…(4.867)

After lengthy historical research by scholars of every background under the pressure of revisionist critics, the director of the “Institute of history of the present time” at the National Center of Scientific Research, Mr. Francois Bedarida sums up these works on the “evaluation of the Auschwitz victims” :

"The collective memory has seized hold of the figure of four million, the very one which, on the faith of a Soviet report, figured until now at Auschwitz on the monument erected to the memory of the victims of Nazism - while in Jerusalem the Yad Vashem museum indicated a total very much above the truth.

And yet, as soon as the war ended, scholarly memory got down to work. The result of these patient and minute investigations was that the figure of four million rested on no serious base and could not be retained.

The court, all the same, relied on an assertion by Eichmann claiming that the extermination policy had caused the death of six million Jews, four million of them in the camps. If now we refer to the most recent works and to the most reliable statistics - as is the case with Raoul Hilberg's work, "Destruction des juifs d'Europe" (Fayard,1988), we come up with a million dead at Auschwitz. 

A total corroborated by the specialists as a whole since, today, these agree on a number of victims oscillating between 950,000 minimum and 1.2 million maximum."

Source : “Le Monde”, 23rd July 1990.

Nevertheless, people continue after the reduction of the number of victims at Auschwitz-Birkneau from 4 to 1 million, to repeat the global figure : 6 million Jews exterminated, according to the bizarre arithmetic : 6 - 3 = 6.

That the “final solution” to the Jewish problem was to be resolved only after the war is also testified to by the “Braun Mappe” (Brown File) of the Summer of 1941. The paragraph entitled : “Directives for the solution of the Jewish question” specified :

"All the measures concerning the Jewish question in the lands occupied in the East having to be taken after the war, the Jewish question will find a general solution in Europe." 

Source : P.S. 702. Henri Monneray. “La persecution des juifs dans les pays de l’Est presentre " Nuremberg” CDJC 1949.

This restatement of the question does involve any attenuation of Hitler’s crimes, but simply recalls a piece of evidence which even the most determined partisans of the theory of “extermination” have not overlooked:

During the last two years of the war, after Stalingrad, Hitler was fighting a losing battle : the Allies were destroying his war production centres with their bombs and disorganizing his transport network.

He was forced to mobilize new soldiers, emptying his factories as a result. How could he have been fatally obsessed with the will to exterminate his prisoners and Jews, instead of using them, even in inhuman conditions, for working on his sites? Poliakov himself, in his “Breviaire de la haine” (p.3) emphasized this absurd contradiction :

"It would have been so much more economical to have made them carry out the hardest work, parking them in a reservation for instance." 

Hannah Arendt also pointed out what was insane about such an operation :

"The Nazis turned straightforwardly useless into the harmful when, right in the middle of the war, despite the penury of building materials and of rolling stock, they erected huge and costly extermination factories and organized the transport of millions of people...

The manifest contradiction between this behavior and military imperatives gives the entire undertaking a mad, chimerical air."

Source : Hannah Arendt. “Le systrme totalitaire” Paris 1972. p.182.

What is even odder is that minds as subtle as Poliakov and Hannah Arendt were so completely clouded by their a prioris that they did not question their Surrealistic assumptions and turn to the documents and the facts.

At Auschwitz-Birkenau, there were powerful implantations of the Farben-industry (chemical), of Siemens (transports) of Portland (construction). At Monovitz (one of the camp annexes to Auschwitz) there were 10,000 prisoners at work, 100,000 civilian workers and 1,000 English prisoners of war.

Source : “German crimes in Poland”, Warsaw 1946. Vol. I. p.37.

From 1942 to 1944, out of 39 camps that were satellites of Auschwitz, 31 used prisoners as laborers and 19 of them used a majority of Jews.

On January 25th 1942, Himmler addressed the following directive to the inspector-general of the concentration camps :

"Get ready to take in 100,000 Jews...Over the coming weeks, important economic tasks will be entrusted to the concentration camps."

Source : N.0. ; 020

a - In May 1944, Hitler ordered the use of 200,000 Jews as workers in the
construction program of Jager and the Todt organization.

An S S W V H A order dated November 18th 1943 awarded a bonus to prisoners- even Jews - who had distinguished themselves at work.

Source : Auschwitz Museum Center 6 - 1962 p.78.

There is therefore nothing “insane or chimerical”, but on the contrary an implacable realism, and an extra refutation of the “exterminationist” themes.

b - Eyewitness accounts

The Auschwitz trial was held in Frankfurt from December 20th 1963 to August 20th 1965, in a vast theater which was well-suited to a showy political operation; the vast legal machine could not avoid being forced to acknowledge in the account of the reasons for its verdict that the elements at its disposal for reaching its verdict were absurdly flimsy.

"The court lacked almost all the means of information which an ordinary criminal trial disposes of to compose a faithful portrayal of events such as they really occurred. The bodies of the victims lacking, the autopsy reports, the conclusions of the experts as to the cause of death; traces left by the culprits were lacking, crime weapons, etc...It was possible to check the accounts only in a very few cases."

Source : Page 109 of the account of the reasons for the verdict

According to the accusers, the crime-weapon was the “gas chambers.” Yet the judges found no “traces” of them!

It was enough for those gas-chambers to be “notorious” to exist, as in the days of the witch-trials, where no-one would have dared to question the witches’ “carnal knowledge” of the devil for fear of being burnt at the stake too.

One of the jurists sent by the United States to Dachau, which had become an American camp and a center of “war-crime trials”, Stephen S. Pinter, wrote :

"I lived at Dachau for 17 months after the war as US military judge, and can testify that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What they show visitors is presented in an erroneous manner as a gas chamber, being a crematorium oven. Nor were there any gas chambers in the concentration camps in Germany. 

We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but as Auchwitz was in the Russian zone, we did not have permission from the Russians to visit…they thus made use of the old propaganda myth according to which millions of Jews were killed.

I can attest, after 6 years spent in Germany and Austria after the war, that many Jews were killed, but that the figure of 1 million was certainly never reached, and I believe myself to be better-qualified than anyone else on this subject."

Source: Letter by Pinter to the Catholic weekly, “Our Sunday Visitor”, June 14th 1959, p.15.

Lacking written proofs and irrecusable documents, the Nuremberg court was forced to base itself on “eyewitness accounts”, like the fictionalized works and the films that came later.

The survivors who were called upon to bear witness and who authenticated the existence of “gas chambers” did it not from what they had seen but what they had “heard said”.

A typical and famous example is that of Doctor Benedict Kautzsky, successor to his father at the head of the Austrian Social Democratic party.

After declaring that the maximum period of survival at Auschwitz was three months (though he himself spent three years there), he wrote his book : “Teufel und Verdammt” (published in Switzerland in 1946), in which he declared about the “gas chambers” :

"I did not see them personally, but so many faithworthy people confirmed their existence."

"Il will hier noch eine kurze Shilderung der Gaskannmern einflechten, die ich zwar selbst nicht gesehen habe, die mir iber von so vielen glaubwurdig dargestellt worden sind... "

A few eyewitness accounts were regarded as fundamental, notably those of Rudolf Hoess, Saukel and Nyszli (“Doctor at Auschwitz”).

The key witness, who turned out to be the perfect witness to “prove” the thesis of the victors disguised as judges was Rudolf Hoess, ex commander of the Auschwitz camp.

The description he gave when he was arrested became the synopsis of his declarations at Nuremberg; it was everything the Court expected of him.

Here is his declaration, written under oath and signed by Rudolf Hoess on April 5th 1946 :

"I was commander of Auschwitz until December 1st 1943, and I estimate that at least 2,500,000 victims were executed there and exterminated by gassing and cremation, and that at least half a million others died there of hunger and disease, which makes a up a total of about 3,000,000 dead. The "final solution" of the Jewish question signified the extermination of all the Jews in Europe. 

I received the order to prepare the extermination at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there already existed three other extermination camps in the general government : Belzec, Treblinka, Wolzek."

One cannot imagine a more perfect confirmation of the theses which were
going to be spread by the media for half a century.

And yet this text itself already contains three statements in obvious contradiction with the truth :

1 - The number of 3 million dead at Auschwitz, needed to justify the total number of Jewish victims (6 million), official figure proclaimed from the start at Nuremberg and which has never ceased to be the leitmotif of official history and of the media since that time, 

Has to be reduced by at least two thirds, as the new commemorative plaque at Auschwitz-Birkenau proves, on which the figure of four million has been replaced by: a little over a million.

2 - The camps of Belzec and Treblinka did not exist in 1941. They were not opened until 1942.

3 - As for the Wolzek camp, it never existed on any map.

How could this “capital testimony” have been recorded without prior verification ?

Höss himself explains it: the first declarations were made under the control of the Polish authorities which had arrested him.

The autobiography of Rudolf Höss indicates on page 174 of the French edition :

"At the time of my first cross-examination, the first confessions were obtained by beating me. I do not know what there is in that report although I signed it." (5.956).

(Hoess signed an 8-page typescript at 2.30 in the morning of March 14th 1946 which does not essentially differ from what he later wrote and said at Nuremberg or Cracow.)

Hoess himself describes in hand-written notes made at Cracow the circumstances of the first interrogatory to which he was subjected by the British military police.

"I was arrested on March 11th 1946 at llPM...The Field Security Police subjected me to painful treatment. I was dragged until Heide, precisely to the barracks where, eight months earlier, I had been released by the English. It was there I was interrogated for the first time, during which harsh means were used. 

I do not know the contents of the report even though I signed it. So much liquor and whip-lashes got the better even of me…A few days later, I was taken to Meiden-on-the-Weser, the main interrogation center of the British zone. There, I fared even worse at the hands of a public attorney, a commander."

Source: Document NO-1210

It was only in 1983 that there was confirmation of the tortures inflicted upon Rudolf Hoess to obtain the “proof” of the “two and a half million” Jews exterminated by him at Auschwitz.

This book was written by Rupert Butler and was called : “Legions of Death” (Hamlyn Paperbacks). It publishes the testimony of Bernard Clarke, who arrested Rudolf Höss after finding out his whereabouts from his wife after threat of death to herself and her children.

Hoess was arrested at the farm where he was hiding on March 11th 1946. Butler describes how it took three days of torture to obtain a “coherent declaration”, eg. the one we have just quoted, signed March 14 th 1946 at 2 in the morning.

As soon as he was arrested, Hoess was beaten so hard that “in the end,the health officer intervened with insistence to the captain : tell him to stop or you’ll bring back a corpse.”

It must be noted that Butler and his interlocutor Clarke both seem highly satisfied with these acts of torture.

The American enquiry committee made up of judges Van Roden and Simpson, sent to Germany in 1948 to investigate irregularities committed by the American military court at Dachau (which had tried 1,500 German prisoners and sentenced 420 of them to death), established that the accused had been subjected to physical and psychological torture of every sort to force them to make the desired “confessions”.

Thus 137 out of 139 German prisoners examined had been kicked in testicles, receiving permanent injuries.

Source : Interview with Judge Edward L. Van Roden, in “The Progressive”, February 1949.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Terrace Lad wrote:
Instead of childish name calls in lack of any other thing to do, I would rather look at solid, physical evidence. Read my post over and over again and maybe you’ ll understand, instead of activating a subconscious alarm that has been washed into your head for generations.

Nobody can deny the persecution of the Jews. However, the attempts at forging their persecution into a historically unique, unprecedented and unscaled act of inhumanity is wrong and it injures history as a science.

The biblical term of the " holocaust " already tries to put an undisputed seal on the event. More so, more inhumane acts have been commited by the American settlers against the indigenous Americans and countless more native Americans died than Jews during WW2.

Same can be said about the black people and the slavetrade. But evenso, no biblical terms have been used to coin these happenings and none of them have been forged and pumped up so comercially like the persecution of Jews during the second world war, it is disturbing.

Even more disgusting, acts like Wiesel and Wiesenthal only extend the persecutions to the Jewish community and they otherwise see it irrelevant. It is nothing more than an ideological weapon and such disturbing things do nothing more than just diminish and trivialize the drama that the actually persecuted Jews suffered.

This is an event witch is mainly being supported by pieces of fiction like the works of Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal and the diary of Anne Frank. And to most people literature means more than solid facts based on physics, chemistry and common sense, it’ s pretty sad.

For the final time, the persecution of Jews is undeniable, but this fact has no right to be elevated among other similar acts witch are far more grave ( much more casualties, among more ) and the ridiculous way the persecution has been pumped up by the media and mainstream historians backing a political agenda,

The way valid historical facts are being silenced, historians threatened and careers ruined is troubling and gravely wrong.

Your pathetic namecalling only demonstrates that you do not argue or counterargue for the sake of historical accuracy or any kind of accuracy. You just protect your own interests, wright or wrong, legitimate or not. Because of this, you are irrelevant.

Now we know where Minimal Prospect went.

[/quote]

Seriously. I’m not going to indulge this guy. I said I made my last post to him and I did. There’s no reasoning or presentation of evidence with such a person.

If he’s been able to ignore the mountains of evidence to this point, nothing anyone can say will make a dfference. I just find it sad and disheartening that such a person can exist.

I have lived and I grew up with these " mountains of evidence ". But unlike other people who refuse to see the finer shades of things because they have their own interests and agenda ( or gullible saps who don’ t have enough independent thinking to choose what is real or not from the bundle of " evidence " that has been “implanted” from birth ) , I can.

This has been my last post on this matter as well.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Irish, just to add a little perspective, the Israeli - Palestinian conflict has been going on much, much longer than any other conflict in history.

It started around 1500 B.C.; some might say as early as 2000 B.C.

Although the current spate of tit for tat may have begun in the 1930s, when one looks at the big picture very little has changed there since the dawn of recorded history. It has always been the most contentious piece of real estate in the solar system.[/quote]
wrong, sorry

Our motive is to give 300,000 of our people a normal life, with no 60 rockets that are being fired at our people for the last 8 years.
There is no way for those poor people to have a normal life.

You have no idea what is like to live like this.
If the only way we can let our people live a proper life is to give gaza hell, we will! like every normal country in the world.
Israel tries not to hurt unarmed citizens, but it is not always possilbe when fighting in a place like this. we try our best.

F*** all those who oppose us, we dont care, our only concern is our people.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Read again. I disagreed with the idea that Hamas has anything to do with Palestinians considering Israel as anything but the aggressor.[/quote]

I concur: Israel is anything but the aggressor.

You want to “screw Arab nations!”, but you can’t - they created this mess (intentionally), and the blood is on their hands.

Even if we started from a position that Palestinians were screwed out of their rightful land (and I don’t), what is stopping neighboring Muslim nations from taking in their Palestinian brethren, giving them good and healthy sanctuary, and then trying to solve the problem diplomatically and politically?

Muslim nations - not just Arab - could relieve the massive suffering of the Palestinians they claim to be so sympathetic to…but choose not to. Why? We both know the answer, and Palestinians have no friend in the Muslim world who have no incentive to make lives better at the expense of losing their proxy to try and destroy the hated Israel.

A lie, but then, no expects any different from you. Muslim nations encouraged Palestinians to leave and never provided sanctuary.

That this awful truth doesn’t fit in with your preferred narrative is no one’s problem to fix except yourself - divert some of that trust fund money into some useful classes on history and maybe you’ll redeem what has already been a shameful approach so far.

This is a meaningless attempt at a slander made by a child - I have criticized Israel when I thought it wrong and consistently supported a Palestinian state.

You’ll also note that the hated and certainly imperfect Israel is a Westernized democracy, far from the attempted fiction of “royalism” - what nation on the side of your “good” is even remotely interested in democracy, human rights, or liberalism?

It was an idiotic mistake made by a fool. There, that’s more accurate.

Horseshit - as soon as Israel was formally created, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded. Now, genius, which of these powers was “occupied” and at what millisecond did they become “unoccupied” enough to wage war against a newly create state its “occupiers” unequivocally backed?

The “Palestinian exodus” was taking place directly during and after the run-up to Israel becoming a state, and never forget that the “occupied” Arab nations rejected a UN partition to create a space for “Palestinians”…according to you, don while under “occupation” by powers in favor of the state split.

My God, Lixy - you continue to nakedly try and lie about even the most basic aspects of history. Do you actually think that works?

If you are whining about the “colonial powers” carving up the Middle East, blame the Middle East - the Ottoman Empire shouldn’t start fights it can’t finish victoriously.

If you engage in war and lose, no one is interested in your pathetic squeals about how the victor didn’t do the right thing.

At some point, you will have to worry about perception - you are a laughingstock around here.

And? You have no argument here - surprise.

Empty - Israel has taken on Muslim nations hell-bent on its destruction and humiliated them. Unable to contend militarily with Israel, now the story has shifted - and now the Palestinians are resisting an “occupier”. It’s foolish, and everyone outside the “Progressist-Islamist” coalition knows it.

Israel has been under fire since its birth.

Asked and answered - Hamas is. Hamas continues to fire munitions and provoke responses from Israel, only to deliberately put Palestinian civilians in harm’s way.

Everyone knows it - that you won’t acknowledge it, and you even countenance shows that you are a shame to humanity.

Hamas could do its best to stay clear of civilians, but instead (1) intentionally targets Israeli citizens, and (2) intentionally puts Palestinians in harm’s way. Israel? Israel avoids civilian casualties and even sends out communications warning civilians to get out of the way, thus forfieting the element of surprise to try and protect civilians.

No, it isn’t an appeal to authority, because I am not suggesting that because the UN takes the position, it must therefore be right - I am demonstrating that Israel is legitimate by the process best recognized by the world, so Israel could not have done much else to gain its legitimacy.

Not very bright, aye?

They aren’t, so no worries.

Easiest question yet - the legions of barbarians in the Middle East that use the Palestinians as a pretext to hate and destroy Israel. The Palestinians suffer because they have been sold a false bill of goods by their supporters and told a fairy tale about Israeli’s “imperialism”.

They have been used as pawns by a civilization that cares nothing about human rights, liberty, liberalims, or prosperity - in virtually no other Muslim nation would a Palestinian be afforded an opportunity at any of these things.

No, Palestinians are most certainly victims - victims of a civilization grasping at a former glory, needing to strike out out the world that passes them by.

[quote]Wait…there’s no “easy good and bad guys” with regards to the colonization of Native Americans?

Anyway, I suggest you apply this to Israel and the Occupied Territories.[/quote]

I always have - I have complained about Israel in the past not spending more time working on diplomatic solutions. But you can’t have a political solution to a military problem - and the barbarians see it as a military problem. So do you.

Israel is a pro-West democracy - of course it’s militay capabilities are far superior…so what? Such a disadvantage doesn’t countenance the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the barbarians - and wouldn’t such a disadvantage urge a political solution?

Nope. Only jihad. Only body stacked after body stacked, because there can be no tolerance - only victory of a 7th century mentality and a rejection of liberal values…an approach endorsed by you, no less.

Because you will always lose?

Your problem - outside of being a small, sniveling worm of a man - is that you won’t dare make a distinction as to the rightness of wrongness of the fight. Hamas wants a world of crushing spirit that defies human rights - and they will slaughter millions in furtherance of that Perfect Way.

Their Way entails a rejection of Humanism and all things “progressive” - but no matter, they give no quarter and will murder innocents.

You should be ashamed at the side you have chosen. You claim to be a Humanist, when you are no such.

Truces are meaningless with Hamas, that we know for sure. And, the Palestinian people have chosen Hamas, to their error - but at least part of that is because they have been kep poor and stupid by their so-called “supporters”. Why, who else would you support when your TV consists of Al-Jazeera and your textbooks include the Protocols of Zion?

That is a habit that can change, and when it does, when the Palestinians come out of the darkness and realize what the barbarians have done to them - I pity the result.

[quote]You’re the one making generalizations, amalgamating Palestinians with Arabs and/or Muslims, then when called on it, cook up a giant strawman.

Answer the question.[/quote]

I have, you are just trying to cavil. I am not amalgamating Palestinians ethnically with anyone - my claim is one of ideology, one that is shared by many ethnicities in the Middle East.

Any nation that (1) supports the Palestinian “cause” but denies Palestinians rights, and/or (2) is an enemy of Israel is game for criticism. The better question is which ones are not included?

Jordan is perhaps the least horrible toward Palestinians.

What is curious is that you want to make some useful distinction between the “Arab” nations, and I will post the reply in a following post, lest it get forgotten in the middle.

Good Lord - a self-proclaimed “Humanist” thinks nations that indulge in gender apartheid, human rights violations (“we hang gays!!”), and close their doors to any form of education and knowledge of the wider world is “successful, prosperous, and happy”.

No, your head hurts because you are having to do something with your brain other than use it as a blank slate upon which stupid radicalism is written without question or independent thinking.

Thanks to Hamas.

You keep asking the same stupid question, as if you don’t know the answer.

Hamas is the answer.

And this factually wrong, as Palestinians would not be killed but for the actions of Hamas.

Which Huntington? The one that recently passed? You never say.

A lie - what current nation in the Western world intentionally targets civilians for the sake of targeting them?

You continue to sidestep what you know to be the awful truth - that your “brethren” continue to conduct the most atrocious acts of murder in the modern age. I know, it is humiliating, but you have chosen your side, and you must live with the shame.

Ask Hamas - religion is not separate of nationalism.

You haven’t condemned a single atrocity committed by Hamas, nor have you even pretended to suggest that their actions of deliberately involving civilians are wrong.

You can’t at this stage of the game plead pious - you’ve shown us too many cards for you to pretend you don’t support the violence.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
redivote wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Irish, just to add a little perspective, the Israeli - Palestinian conflict has been going on much, much longer than any other conflict in history.

It started around 1500 B.C.; some might say as early as 2000 B.C.

Although the current spate of tit for tat may have begun in the 1930s, when one looks at the big picture very little has changed there since the dawn of recorded history. It has always been the most contentious piece of real estate in the solar system.

wrong, sorry

A post worthy of The Big Pussy Award.
Wow nice photo, seriously now, where did you get the idea that were been fighting the Palestinian for the last 3000 years?

Im sorry, but the fighting began somewhere in the beginning of the 20th century.

[/quote]