Israel: Give Me A Motive!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So I’m curious- if Hamas’ goal wasn’t clearly stated as wanting to wipe Israel off the map and instead they simply bombed and killed thousands of Israelis instead- would that be ok then? Maybe more acceptable?

After all, you guys seem to be completely consumed with Hamas’ intention of ridding themselves of Israel… regardless of the fact that Palestinian casualties far outweigh Israelis’. Though I suppose it’s ok because Israel doesn’t actually state they want Palestine wiped off the map, even though their actions would seem to imply they do.

Uh, what?
Hamas’s declaration just simply coalesces their actions in a neat little package. It just proves that as long as Hamas exists there will be no chance at peace. They do not stop at words, they seek to kill every man, woman and child in Israel.

If it is true that their casualties are higher it would still be their own fault. They keep attacking a sovereign country who sooner or later will defend themselves.

If Israel’s causalities are fewer it’s not due to lack of effort by Hamas and other terror organizations that have attacked Israel over and over and over. They are just to stupid and hasty to be as effective as they want to be.

I get the feeling you are to young and naive to understand the problem.[/quote]

I get the feeling you yourself are naieve. My age is completely irrelevant.

My point was that Israel kills many more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. But none of you seem to have a problem with that- only that Hamas has ambitions of war with Israel. My point is what’s worse- saying you’re going to kill someone, or actually killing someone? Because Israel is definitely killing more people, and has been for years.

Talking the talk and you’re a terrorist, walking the walk and you’re a group deserving of pity and support.

Numbers in the brackets are people under 18, by the way…

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
Dec1987 22 (5) 0 (0)
1988 310 (50) 12 (3)
1989 305 (83) 31 (1)
1990 145 (25) 22 (0)
1991 104 (27) 19 (0)
1992 138 (23) 34 (1)
13.9.93 138 (37) 42 (0)
14.9.93 42 (4) 19 (0)
1994 152 (24) 74 (2)
1995 45 (5) 46 (0)
1996 74 (11) 75 (8)
1997 21 (5) 29 (3)
1998 28 (3) 12 (0)
1999 9 (0) 4 (0)
2000 16 (2) 2 (0)
Total 1549 (304) 421 (18)

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
2000 279 (83) 41 (0)
2001 469 (82) 191 (36)
2002 1032 (157) 421 (47)
2003 588 (119) 185 (21)
2004 828 (179) 108 (8)
Total 3196 (620) 946 (112)

Deaths Injuries
Palestinians Israelis Palestinians Israelis
2005 216 (52) 48 (6) 1260 (129) 484 (4)
2006 678 (127) 25 (2) 3194 (470) 377 (7)
2007 396 (43) 13 (0) 1843 (265) 322 (3)
2008
Total 1290 (222) 86 (8) 6297 (864) 1183 (14)

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/First_Intifada_Tables.asp

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Humanitarian_Monitor_Dec_07.pdf

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

82

[quote]Terrace Lad wrote:
pat wrote:
It just proves that as long as Hamas exists there will be no chance at peace.

The same can be said about Israel.

[/quote]

Israel wants to be left alone if these stupid mother fuckers would stop bombing them then they would be left alone.

83

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?[/quote]

Many. For several reasons. The main reasons are a. Hamas and similar groups intentionally place their civilians in harms way and foster a culture of martyrdom, and b. are a podunk army that continually instigates violence against a much more powerful nation it knows is going to respond. And attack the military targets it intentionally places in schools, homes, and community centers.

84

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So I’m curious- if Hamas’ goal wasn’t clearly stated as wanting to wipe Israel off the map and instead they simply bombed and killed thousands of Israelis instead- would that be ok then? Maybe more acceptable?

After all, you guys seem to be completely consumed with Hamas’ intention of ridding themselves of Israel… regardless of the fact that Palestinian casualties far outweigh Israelis’. Though I suppose it’s ok because Israel doesn’t actually state they want Palestine wiped off the map, even though their actions would seem to imply they do.

Uh, what?
Hamas’s declaration just simply coalesces their actions in a neat little package. It just proves that as long as Hamas exists there will be no chance at peace. They do not stop at words, they seek to kill every man, woman and child in Israel.

If it is true that their casualties are higher it would still be their own fault. They keep attacking a sovereign country who sooner or later will defend themselves.

If Israel’s causalities are fewer it’s not due to lack of effort by Hamas and other terror organizations that have attacked Israel over and over and over. They are just to stupid and hasty to be as effective as they want to be.

I get the feeling you are to young and naive to understand the problem.

I get the feeling you yourself are naieve. My age is completely irrelevant.

My point was that Israel kills many more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. But none of you seem to have a problem with that- only that Hamas has ambitions of war with Israel. My point is what’s worse- saying you’re going to kill someone, or actually killing someone? Because Israel is definitely killing more people, and has been for years.

Talking the talk and you’re a terrorist, walking the walk and you’re a group deserving of pity and support.

Numbers in the brackets are people under 18, by the way…

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
Dec1987 22 (5) 0 (0)
1988 310 (50) 12 (3)
1989 305 (83) 31 (1)
1990 145 (25) 22 (0)
1991 104 (27) 19 (0)
1992 138 (23) 34 (1)
13.9.93 138 (37) 42 (0)
14.9.93 42 (4) 19 (0)
1994 152 (24) 74 (2)
1995 45 (5) 46 (0)
1996 74 (11) 75 (8)
1997 21 (5) 29 (3)
1998 28 (3) 12 (0)
1999 9 (0) 4 (0)
2000 16 (2) 2 (0)
Total 1549 (304) 421 (18)

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
2000 279 (83) 41 (0)
2001 469 (82) 191 (36)
2002 1032 (157) 421 (47)
2003 588 (119) 185 (21)
2004 828 (179) 108 (8)
Total 3196 (620) 946 (112)

Deaths Injuries
Palestinians Israelis Palestinians Israelis
2005 216 (52) 48 (6) 1260 (129) 484 (4)
2006 678 (127) 25 (2) 3194 (470) 377 (7)
2007 396 (43) 13 (0) 1843 (265) 322 (3)
2008
Total 1290 (222) 86 (8) 6297 (864) 1183 (14)

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/First_Intifada_Tables.asp

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Humanitarian_Monitor_Dec_07.pdf

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp[/quote]

No one is disputing that. But you continuously fail to recognize the reasons. That is the natural consequence when podunk terrorist organizations, trying to pass themselves off as governments, repeatedly act as the instigator and intentionally target the CIVILIANS of a nation with a powerful military. Launching rockets and mortors FROM schools, homes, and community centers.

85

[quote]pat wrote:
John S. wrote:
If Hamas doesn’t give a shit about killing its citizens, and the citizens think that there getting paradise out of the deal then why the fuck should we care?

Mainly because along with Israel, it’s our blood they want to spill…Otherwise they could fuck themselves day and night, stone their women, and marry infant children all they want in peace.[/quote]

When I say why should we care I mean why do we care that Israel is bombing them back to the stone age? They want to spill my blood I say let Israel erase them from the earth.

87

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Irish, just to add a little perspective, the Israeli - Palestinian conflict has been going on much, much longer than any other conflict in history.

It started around 1500 B.C.; some might say as early as 2000 B.C.

Although the current spate of tit for tat may have begun in the 1930s, when one looks at the big picture very little has changed there since the dawn of recorded history. It has always been the most contentious piece of real estate in the solar system.[/quote]

Yes it has.

Mufasa

88

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?

Many. For several reasons. The main reasons are a. Hamas and similar groups intentionally place their civilians in harms way and foster a culture of martyrdom, and b. are a podunk army that continually instigates violence against a much more powerful nation it knows is going to respond. And attack the military targets it intentionally places in schools, homes, and community centers. [/quote]

In addition to bombs, mortars and all types of small arms in mosque.

Mufasa

89

[quote]Terrace Lad wrote:
jsbrook wrote:Israel’s no untouched virgin. And it’s actions aren’t always defensible. But it most certainly is better islamic factions and states committed to the utter destruction of Israel who engage in deplorable methods to achieve this result,

And intentionally place their citizens in harms way to try and garner international support.

I will not take Israel’ s part, nor shall I defend Islamists that are invading my continent and try to feel like home. This incident is just another episode of a long lasting conflict witch started since the foundation of the state of Israel witch did change the region’ s demographics. The land was not barren and unpopulated as the jewish leaders would suggest, on the contrary… aggressive colonialist tactics have been used and mutual dislike has been spurred on both sides,

But in this case, the original victims are the indigineous peoples prior to the foundation of the jewish state.

Lixy, I wouldn’ t call Semitic people Europeans…
[/quote]

Actually you are incorrect about the barrenness of the land and missing some important history.

Up until the 1890’s there were very few people living in what was known as Palestine. Then in the 1890’s the Zionist movement came along and Jews started moving back into the area. Then the Ottomans started imposing limits on the numbers of Jews who could move in.

The result of this policy was when the Jewish immigration caused economy of the area to start expanding the need for laborers to support the growing economy could not be filled by bringing in more Jews.

Instead Arabs had to be brought in to fill those jobs. This is how most of the “Palestinians” became “Palestinians”. It is also why most “Palestinian” family names can be traced back to villages all over the middle east.

Today the common view is the Jews have pushed the Palestinians off of their land that they have lived on for generations. It’s not true. Most of the Palestinians have only been there a generation ahead of the most of the Jews.

And the only reason why they moved into the area then was specifically to prevent the creation of a Jewish state.

90

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
So enthralled with the “underdog”, you’ll sanction just about anything. Notice how you never said targeting civilians was wrong - damning.

Where did I sanction the use of violence?

I just expressed surprise at the notion that you expect Palestinians to
go after F-16s.

But you see the placement of launchers and ammunition amongst the civilian population (residential, hospitals, mosques, etc.), to be used against Israel, as unjustifiable, correct? Hamas carries the burden of civilian deaths too, no?

Obviously. The actions of Hamas have killed civilians. But let us please not pretend it’s anything close to the violence scale of what T’sahal is inflicting on Gaza.

It’s disgusting that Hamas launches (mostly inofensive) rockets into Israel. That they do so from within civilian areas, even more so. But it’s those same civilians who voted them in by a large margin. Palestinians have had it with endless talks and non-viable proposals. They’re out for blood. This is a given.

What is important to recall here, is that nobody on this board is financing Hamas or its (mosty vain) attempts to kill Israelis. However, US taxpayer money can be directly traced to the weapons obliterating Gaza. [/quote]

You are such a fucking hypocrite. You say it’s disgusting that Hamas launches rockets from civilian areas. But that did not prevent you from an absolutely cynical and manipulative use of pictures of the dead and injured children that resulted from Hamas strategy of deliberately drawing fire into civilian areas.

Another thing is your constant exaggerating anything the Jews do while minimizing anything your people do. The Israelis are not even close to obliterating Gaza. All the Hamas rockets launched into Israel are intended to kill Jews. Just because they usually fail in their intended purpose does not in any way minimize what they are meant for.

91

[quote]pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
So enthralled with the “underdog”, you’ll sanction just about anything. Notice how you never said targeting civilians was wrong - damning.

Where did I sanction the use of violence?

I just expressed surprise at the notion that you expect Palestinians to
go after F-16s.

But you see the placement of launchers and ammunition amongst the civilian population (residential, hospitals, mosques, etc.), to be used against Israel, as unjustifiable, correct? Hamas carries the burden of civilian deaths too, no?

Obviously. The actions of Hamas have killed civilians. But let us please not pretend it’s anything close to the violence scale of what T’sahal is inflicting on Gaza.

It’s disgusting that Hamas launches (mostly inofensive) rockets into Israel. That they do so from within civilian areas, even more so. But it’s those same civilians who voted them in by a large margin. Palestinians have had it with endless talks and non-viable proposals. They’re out for blood. This is a given.

What is important to recall here, is that nobody on this board is financing Hamas or its (mosty vain) attempts to kill Israelis. However, US taxpayer money can be directly traced to the weapons obliterating Gaza.

And Israel has had it with these assholes launching rockets and sending suicide bombers in to their country. Hamas needs to be destroyed. It has long since been past time to get rid of the imbeciles once and for all. It is for the good of the Palestinian people as well as Israel.

Seriously, do you think there is ever going to be peace with an institution that calls for the death of Israel and all jews for that matter? Nope.

Israel has the means, it’s time to remove hamas permanently. They, not Israel need to be wipe off the face of the earth…They want to die fine with me, let’s grant their wishes and rid the planet of their stupidity.[/quote]

Yet all we hear from the international community is we need to get a cease fire immediately. All a cease fire will do is give Hamas the opportunity to regroup and rearm, so all those who have died so far will have died for nothing.

Until there is a final showdown where the path that Hamas has chosen for the Palestinian people is shown to be a path to destruction the cycle of violence will continue.

History has clearly shown that the only way for militants to be thoroughly discredited is for them to get a lot of people killed.

92

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
Over the years how many Palestinians have died in comparison with Israelis?[/quote]

I don’t know for sure but we could start with six million dead Jews and go from there. I would have to say the Muslims are way ahead…

93

Does anyone see Israel as the next Hitler? Dominating countries based on their beliefs… Bloody hell.

94

[quote]iampulse86 wrote:
Does anyone see Israel as the next Hitler? Dominating countries based on their beliefs… Bloody hell.[/quote]

Shut the hell up.

96

[quote]John S. wrote:
iampulse86 wrote:
Does anyone see Israel as the next Hitler? Dominating countries based on their beliefs… Bloody hell.

Shut the hell up.[/quote]

Hey, I see it as I call it. I see Israel doing more pre-emptive attacks than they are. Maybe that’s how our zionist media has placed them (reading through alot of history, it seems that Israel always pre-empts), but irregardless a blow for blow never settles the score.

97

[quote]iampulse86 wrote:
John S. wrote:
iampulse86 wrote:
Does anyone see Israel as the next Hitler? Dominating countries based on their beliefs… Bloody hell.

Shut the hell up.

Hey, I see it as I call it. I see Israel doing more pre-emptive attacks than they are. Maybe that’s how our zionist media has placed them (reading through alot of history, it seems that Israel always pre-empts), but irregardless a blow for blow never settles the score.

[/quote]

Again shut the hell up. If you knew anything about what was going on you would know that Israel was defending itself. Maybe you should pick up the history books again dumbass.

98

[quote]Inner Hulk wrote:
pat wrote:
Inner Hulk wrote:
So I’m curious- if Hamas’ goal wasn’t clearly stated as wanting to wipe Israel off the map and instead they simply bombed and killed thousands of Israelis instead- would that be ok then? Maybe more acceptable?

After all, you guys seem to be completely consumed with Hamas’ intention of ridding themselves of Israel… regardless of the fact that Palestinian casualties far outweigh Israelis’.

Though I suppose it’s ok because Israel doesn’t actually state they want Palestine wiped off the map, even though their actions would seem to imply they do.

Uh, what?
Hamas’s declaration just simply coalesces their actions in a neat little package. It just proves that as long as Hamas exists there will be no chance at peace. They do not stop at words, they seek to kill every man, woman and child in Israel.

If it is true that their casualties are higher it would still be their own fault. They keep attacking a sovereign country who sooner or later will defend themselves.

If Israel’s causalities are fewer it’s not due to lack of effort by Hamas and other terror organizations that have attacked Israel over and over and over. They are just to stupid and hasty to be as effective as they want to be.

I get the feeling you are to young and naive to understand the problem.

I get the feeling you yourself are naieve. My age is completely irrelevant.

My point was that Israel kills many more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis. But none of you seem to have a problem with that- only that Hamas has ambitions of war with Israel. My point is what’s worse- saying you’re going to kill someone, or actually killing someone? Because Israel is definitely killing more people, and has been for years.

Talking the talk and you’re a terrorist, walking the walk and you’re a group deserving of pity and support.

Numbers in the brackets are people under 18, by the way…

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
Dec1987 22 (5) 0 (0)
1988 310 (50) 12 (3)
1989 305 (83) 31 (1)
1990 145 (25) 22 (0)
1991 104 (27) 19 (0)
1992 138 (23) 34 (1)
13.9.93 138 (37) 42 (0)
14.9.93 42 (4) 19 (0)
1994 152 (24) 74 (2)
1995 45 (5) 46 (0)
1996 74 (11) 75 (8)
1997 21 (5) 29 (3)
1998 28 (3) 12 (0)
1999 9 (0) 4 (0)
2000 16 (2) 2 (0)
Total 1549 (304) 421 (18)

Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
2000 279 (83) 41 (0)
2001 469 (82) 191 (36)
2002 1032 (157) 421 (47)
2003 588 (119) 185 (21)
2004 828 (179) 108 (8)
Total 3196 (620) 946 (112)

Deaths Injuries
Palestinians Israelis Palestinians Israelis
2005 216 (52) 48 (6) 1260 (129) 484 (4)
2006 678 (127) 25 (2) 3194 (470) 377 (7)
2007 396 (43) 13 (0) 1843 (265) 322 (3)
2008
Total 1290 (222) 86 (8) 6297 (864) 1183 (14)

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/First_Intifada_Tables.asp

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/Humanitarian_Monitor_Dec_07.pdf

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp[/quote]

Mess with the bull, and you’ll get the horns…

99

[quote]pushharder wrote:
iampulse86 wrote:
Does anyone see Israel as the next Hitler? Dominating countries based on their beliefs… Bloody hell.

This post fits your avatar perfectly.[/quote]

Exactly what I was thinking.

100

I agree with your sentiment on Israel entirely. The underlying fact remains that what has/is and will happen throughout the region has been predicted to happen according to the the Bible… we are living in the end-times and what is happening in the Middle-East is indeed prophetic.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
I’ve said it more than once that there are no “winners” or “losers” in this latest conflict…just losers…

But with all the “talking heads” in the “Zionist Controlled Media” (Israel BADLY needs a new Public Relations firm if this is anybody’s idea of “control”)…NOT ONCE have I heard them mention that the ONLY motive Israel has…and that is to stop the Hamas Rockets.

Period.

They don’t want to “wipe the Palestinians off the face of the Earth”. (like the millions surrounding Israel want to do to them).

They don’t want to annex Gaza and/or place settlements there.

And to those that day "Israel Broke the “cease fire”:

Bullshit.

There never WAS one, as Hamas rockets continued on a daily basis.

This conflict is about stopping those rockets (whose range has now dramatically increased; can anyone say “IRAN”?)

I’m all ears if someone could give me another motive that Israel might have.

Mufasa[/quote]