Yet to hear anyone explain how this will solve Israel’s problems in any way, aside from making a small dent in Hamas’ effectiveness while likely increasing their public support many times over. Isn’t the goal to displace Hamas and re-install Fatah in Gaza? That makes this retaliation completely counter-productive.
It has a lot more to do with Israeli politics than it does with any real chance to defeat Hamas.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Another point.
I would imagine that Israel goes into these campaigns conceding the public relations War.
Mufasa[/quote]
Not at all. The historian Michael Oren (taught at Yale last I heard) wrote about being recalled to serve as a military PA guy:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=d2bfcd6c-8a7e-47ae-b277-7f3f9fa6b5e2
And this operation may even have been timed to fit into the holiday news cycle, when people are distracted and some journalists are on vacation.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
And this operation may even have been timed to fit into the holiday news cycle, when people are distracted and some journalists are on vacation.[/quote]
The Israeli ban on foreign journalists from entering Gaza is still in effect.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Yet to hear anyone explain how this will solve Israel’s problems in any way, aside from making a small dent in Hamas’ effectiveness while likely increasing their public support many times over. Isn’t the goal to displace Hamas and re-install Fatah in Gaza? That makes this retaliation completely counter-productive.
It has a lot more to do with Israeli politics than it does with any real chance to defeat Hamas.[/quote]
Destroy Hamas, problem solved. Then, we can work on a sovreign government and country for the Palestinian’s so long as they play nice with their Jewish neighbors. I.E. they aren’t allowed to seek Israel’s destruction. That’s a no-no.
I support a full scale destruction and dismantlement of Hamas. Anything less would make all the suffering in vain.
BTW, what would you suggest Israel do to solve the problem?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Are you a Politician and/or a lawyer, Lixy?
Name-calling now?
You didn’t answer the question; then accused me of things I didn’t say nor even remotely implied.
The only thing I “accused” you of was not thinking with your head. The rest of the argument was conditional.
You asked if I’d consider breaking Challah with Hamas a “reasonable” response, and I explained that it’s inevitable. If one accepts that premise, killing 700 people in 13 days because elections are close cannot possibly be justified.[/quote]
My bad, Lixy.
No name calling from me. I value your input on these issues too much for me to resort to that.
The lastest is that they will “talk”; but both sides (Hamas and Israel) have said that they will only “talk” via intermediaries and will not sit at the same table.
Mufasa
[quote]pat wrote:
The Palestinians may not be getting what they deserve, I don’t wish them any harm really, but they are getting exactly what they asked for. How many more missile attacks was Israel going to take? How many should they take?[/quote]
I feel bad for civilians on both sides that are dying needlessly. But until the Palestinians realize that Israel is not going to disappear, and elect leaders who accept that fact, I fear they will be little progress peace-wise.
Nothing the Palestitians have ever been offered has been enough; you eventually realize that they’re not negotiating in good faith, since they know they’ll never get an agreement where Israel is dissolved and the inhabitants deported.
We’ll keep seeing this low-simmer war stretch on and on with occasional flare ups. I guess eventually Israel will occupy the entire land; every war against them has seen them seize more and more territory.
Or they’ll eventually manage to detonate a WMD in Tel-Aviv and Israel will retaliate by wiping them off the map.
It’s unfortunate, but I think we’ll see a lot more deaths before that situation is ever settled.
[quote]pat wrote:
Destroy Hamas, problem solved. Then, we can work on a sovreign government and country for the Palestinian’s so long as they play nice with their Jewish neighbors. I.E. they aren’t allowed to seek Israel’s destruction. That’s a no-no.
I support a full scale destruction and dismantlement of Hamas. Anything less would make all the suffering in vain.
BTW, what would you suggest Israel do to solve the problem?[/quote]
Hamas was elected to the Palestinian National Authority.
You can’t keep killing their leaders until they elect someone you like and still claim to respect democracy, no?
[quote]pookie wrote:
pat wrote:
Destroy Hamas, problem solved. Then, we can work on a sovreign government and country for the Palestinian’s so long as they play nice with their Jewish neighbors. I.E. they aren’t allowed to seek Israel’s destruction. That’s a no-no.
I support a full scale destruction and dismantlement of Hamas. Anything less would make all the suffering in vain.
BTW, what would you suggest Israel do to solve the problem?
Hamas was elected to the Palestinian National Authority.
You can’t keep killing their leaders until they elect someone you like and still claim to respect democracy, no?
[/quote]
Correct. But I don’t suggest killing leaders until they put one in you like. I am suggesting if said leadership declares war on a country. The leadership should the first target, by the offended country. It’s not about getting favorable leaders, it’s about killing off the ones who jeopardize everybody’s well being to satisfy their own hatred.
Further, those who voted for Hamas, unless they were duped share a modicum of responsibility for what Hamas does. It’s not a big secret who Hamas is. The name means “Islamic Resistance Movement” after all.
If anyone believes for a second that the Palestinians don’t have a reason to HATE the Israelis, they are badly mistaken. A simple search on google on the history of zionism would prove that Israel has been the aggressor since its inception. Israel basically has the Palestinians in concentration camps.
A good website to look at is ifamericansknew.org. Check it out and tell me that Israel is innocent.
[quote]sladen15 wrote:
If anyone believes for a second that the Palestinians don’t have a reason to HATE the Israelis, they are badly mistaken. A simple search on google on the history of zionism would prove that Israel has been the aggressor since its inception.
Israel basically has the Palestinians in concentration camps. A good website to look at is ifamericansknew.org. Check it out and tell me that Israel is innocent.[/quote]
Concentration camps have come a long way since WWII. Back then, people in them didn’t have rocket launcher or explosive vests.
[quote]lixy wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:
lixy wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:
"But the root cause of what the millions of Palestinian refugees went (and are still going) through remains Israel. "
That argument, […]
Are you actually challenging that notion
Seriously, you don’t see me attaching pics of the victims of Palestinians while arguing that the root cause of utter stupidity on this planet is Palestine.
No, I do not. That case would be hard to make, regardless of accompanying media.
Would be simple enough to prove to anybody who studies human intelligence/cognitive abilities/EI.
Remember, it was Einstein,Russell and Chomsky, not El-Alawi,Abadi or Hussein, and for a reason. Nobody ever raved about how smart the Palestinians are.
(BTW,those were just random names, don’t nit-pick)
Piss off!
Fucktards like you give Mankind (and Jews) a bad name.[/quote]
Calm down, I’m not jewish. I am logical. When did you ever hear of smart Palestinians?
More attempts to kill Jews in Europe.
Firebombs are being thrown into synagogues in Sweden. Islamists drove a burning car into a synagogue in France, when there were 10 people inside.
If we did the same to Muslims in the US or Europe, what would happen? People might think were white supremacists or nuts or at least irrational. But in the Muslim community, this is looked upon as customary.
[quote]archiewhittaker wrote:
More attempts to kill Jews in Europe.
Firebombs are being thrown into synagogues in Sweden. Islamists drove a burning car into a synagogue in France, when there were 10 people inside.
If we did the same to Muslims in the US or Europe, what would happen? People might think were white supremacists or nuts or at least irrational. But in the Muslim community, this is looked upon as customary.[/quote]
So I take it that you’ve never heard of a mosque being torched in Sweden?
http://www.sr.se/jamtland/nyheter/artikel.asp?artikel=2255218
And in France.
Here is Krauthammer’s latest on Gaza. I found it interesting.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/01/two_endgames_for_israel.html
Article in the WSJ yesterday was talking about how the Israeli civilians are bringing sack lunches and lawn chairs to hilltops overlooking the battle zone in Gaza.
People love to watch a good old-fashioned ass whoopin’.
[quote]humble wrote:
Sifu wrote:
humble wrote:
DrSkeptix wrote:
2 Do you think the Saudis understand that if a bomb hits that black stone in Mecca, the basis of the religion goes with it? Perhaps this is part of their geopolitical thinking as well.
lol, then you don’t understand any religon at all if you think a ‘stones’ permanence or banishment despite it’s significance can influence the permanence or banishment of a religon.
That’s like saying, get rid of all the crucifixes and Christianity will vanish.
Sifu… liveleak has a few more but can you explain or provide some proof to your claim about Arabs being involved in the holocaust/genocide?
Probably the best place to start is with the grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Here is a German Documentary about him.
Hitler, The Mufti Of Jerusalem And Modern Islamo Nazism - YouTube
This news report from Bayerischer Rundfunk explains in detail the cooperation between the Nazis and the Muslim Arab leaders during WW2.
It goes on to explain how high ranking heads of the SS fled to the Arab world and carried on their activities under the protection of leaders such as President Nasser and how modern Islam has adopted a Nazi style ideology of hate and conspiracy against the Jews.
Here is another video about the mufti.
Here is a video about the SS handzar division that he raised.
Incidentally the actions of the Bosnian SS divisions during the war was the cause of what happened in Kosovo in the 90’s.
Ahh gee, someone better remind you that this is all politics and the ones that cop it are you and me who buy into this propoganda from both sides. I mean, surely you knew that this evil ol mufti was appointed by none other than Sir Herbert Samuel of the British Army who was a jew himself.
[/quote]
Yes I know the British were the ones who came up with the title of “Grand Mufti” whereas his predecessor (his father) had the title of Mufti of Jerusalem.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php
Muhammed Amin al-Husseini [many spelling variations] was born in 1893 (or 1895), the son of the Mufti of Jerusalem and member of an esteemed, aristocratic family. The Husseinis were one of the richest and most powerful of all the rivalling clans in the Ottoman province known as the Judaean part of Palestine.
Amin al-Husseini studied religious law at al-Azhar University, Cairo, and attended the Istanbul School of Administration. In 1913 he went to Mecca on a pilgrimage, earning the honorary title of “Haj”. He voluntarily joined the Ottoman Turkish army in World War I but returned to Jerusalem in 1917 and expediently switched sides to aid the victorious British. He acquired the reputation as a violent, fanatical anti-Zionist zealot and was jailed by the British for instigating a 1920 Arab attack against Jews who were praying at the Western Wall.
Now here is some information about him that is very relevant to what is happening today.
“The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini. When the existing Arab Mufti of Jerusalem (religious leader) died in 1921, Samuels was influenced by anti-Zionist British officials on his staff. He pardoned al-Husseini and, in January 1922, appointed him as the new Mufti, and even invented a new title of Grand Mufti. He was simultaneously made President of a newly created Supreme Muslim Council. Al-Husseini thereby became the religious and political leader of the Arabs.”
“The appointment of the young al-Husseini as Mufti was a seminal event. Prior to his rise to power, there were active Arab factions supporting cooperative development of Palestine involving Arabs and Jews. But al-Husseini would have none of that; he was devoted to driving Jews out of Palestine, without compromise, even if it set back the Arabs 1000 years.”
William Ziff, in his book “The Rape of Palestine,” summarizes:
* Implicated in the [1920] disturbances was a political adventurer named Haj Amin al Husseini. Haj Amin, was sentenced by a British court to fifteen years hard labor. Conveniently allowed to escape by the police, he was a fugitive in Syria. Shortly after, the British then allowed him to return to Palestine where, despite the opposition of the muslim High Council who regarded him as a hoodlum, Haj Amin was appointed by the British High Commissioner as Grand Mufti of Jerusalem for life. [P. 22]
Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace.
As a young man, al-Husseini worked with a native Jew, Abbady, who documented this comment:
* Remember, Abbady, this was and will remain an Arab land. We do not mind you natives of the country, but those alien invaders, the Zionists, will be massacred to the last man. We want no progress, no prosperity. Nothing but the sword will decide the fate of this country.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Article in the WSJ yesterday was talking about how the Israeli civilians are bringing sack lunches and lawn chairs to hilltops overlooking the battle zone in Gaza.
People love to watch a good old-fashioned ass whoopin’. [/quote]
The poor souls. They are clearly horrified by Hamas rockets.
[i]Moti Danino sat Monday in a canvas lawn chair on a sandy hilltop on Gaza?s border, peering through a pair of binoculars at distant plumes of smoke rising from the besieged territory.
An unemployed factory worker, he comes here each morning to watch Israel?s assault on Hamas from what has become the war?s peanut gallery ? a string of dusty hilltops close to the border that offer panoramic views across northern Gaza.
He is one of dozens of Israelis who have arrived from all over Israel, some with sack lunches and portable radios tuned to the latest reports of the battle raging in front of them. Some, like Mr. Danino, are here to egg on friends and family members in the fight.
Moti Denino and other residents of Sderot in Israel call themselves the ?hill people?, watching attacks unfold between Israel and Gaza from a hillside. WSJ?s Sivan Raviv reports.
Others have made the trek, they say, to witness firsthand a military operation ? so far, widely popular inside Israel ? against Hamas, the militant group that controls the Gaza Strip.
Over the weekend, four teenagers sat on a hill near Mr. Danino?s, oohing and aahing at the airstrikes. Nadav Zebari, who studies Torah in Jerusalem, was eating a cheese sandwich and sipping a Diet Coke.
?I?ve never watched a war before,? he said. A group of police officers nearby took turns snapping pictures of one another with smoking Gaza as a backdrop. ?I want to feel a part of the war,? one said, before correcting himself with the official government designation for the assault. ?I mean operation. It?s not a war.? (?)
Mr. Danino has a personal link to the fighting. His 20-year-old son, Moshe, is a soldier in an infantry unit fighting somewhere below his hilly perch. From the sidelines, he is here to root for his son the soldier, he says, just as he once sat on the sidelines of soccer fields cheering for his son the high-school athlete.
Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza.
?Look at that,? she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. ?Bravo! Bravo!? (?)
?It?s weird that we have to take lives in order to save lives,? Ms. Znaty says. ?But we were held hostage by Hamas while our government ignored us, and now we fight back. I am sorry, but I am happy.? (?)
Many Israelis see the Gaza offensive as a welcome change. ?I come here because our army is finally doing something, showing the world that we are not weak,? says Mr. Danino, the unemployed factory worker. On his hilltop overlooking Gaza, Mr. Danino has taken to quarterbacking the assault from his folding chair.
Having sat here for much of the past week, he now fancies himself something of an expert. He says, for example, that Palestinian militants are fond of firing rockets from the cover of a distant block of greenhouses.
When a plume of smoke ? the result of an Israeli attack ? rose from what appears to be empty farmland Monday, Mr. Danino shook his head. ?No, no, no,? he said. ?We should be hitting the greenhouses.?[/i]
[i] Below the choppers, a dozen Israeli spectators perched on a hilltop watched with anticipation. A minute went by and the first Apache fired a Hellfire missile, which went rumbling into the Palestinian side of the border. A few seconds later the crowd broke into cheers at the resulting sight: somewhere between the Jibalya refugee camp and the outskirts of Gaza city a ball of heavy black smoke was rising. (?)
Itay Avni, 32, who lives in the nearby Kibbutz of Nir-Am (population 400) is overjoyed at the Israeli assault on Gaza. He was among the crowd watching the Apaches launch their missiles. ?Yesterday more then a hundred people from all around were here on this hilltop enjoying to the scene of dozens of aerial raids on Hamas military targets inside the Gaza strip,? he says. ?If I had opened an ice-cream stand here I would have made a lot money.? He adds, ?Exultation is the word to describe my feelings. At last, after eight years of defense alerts and hundreds of mortar shells, of Qassam rockets fired at our kibbutz and the area, there is finally some retaliation. People are here to see it happening for real.?[/i]
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1868858,00.html
[quote]lixy wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:
More attempts to kill Jews in Europe.
Firebombs are being thrown into synagogues in Sweden. Islamists drove a burning car into a synagogue in France, when there were 10 people inside.
If we did the same to Muslims in the US or Europe, what would happen? People might think were white supremacists or nuts or at least irrational. But in the Muslim community, this is looked upon as customary.
So I take it that you’ve never heard of a mosque being torched in Sweden?
http://www.sr.se/jamtland/nyheter/artikel.asp?artikel=2255218
And in France.
[/quote]
Maybe the Euro weenies are finally sick of your lot’s, shit and are acting out in mean and nasty ways…
[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Article in the WSJ yesterday was talking about how the Israeli civilians are bringing sack lunches and lawn chairs to hilltops overlooking the battle zone in Gaza.
People love to watch a good old-fashioned ass whoopin’.
The poor souls. They are clearly horrified by Hamas rockets.
[i]Moti Danino sat Monday in a canvas lawn chair on a sandy hilltop on Gaza?s border, peering through a pair of binoculars at distant plumes of smoke rising from the besieged territory.
An unemployed factory worker, he comes here each morning to watch Israel?s assault on Hamas from what has become the war?s peanut gallery ? a string of dusty hilltops close to the border that offer panoramic views across northern Gaza.
He is one of dozens of Israelis who have arrived from all over Israel, some with sack lunches and portable radios tuned to the latest reports of the battle raging in front of them. Some, like Mr. Danino, are here to egg on friends and family members in the fight.
Moti Denino and other residents of Sderot in Israel call themselves the ?hill people?, watching attacks unfold between Israel and Gaza from a hillside. WSJ?s Sivan Raviv reports.
Others have made the trek, they say, to witness firsthand a military operation ? so far, widely popular inside Israel ? against Hamas, the militant group that controls the Gaza Strip.
Over the weekend, four teenagers sat on a hill near Mr. Danino?s, oohing and aahing at the airstrikes. Nadav Zebari, who studies Torah in Jerusalem, was eating a cheese sandwich and sipping a Diet Coke.
?I?ve never watched a war before,? he said. A group of police officers nearby took turns snapping pictures of one another with smoking Gaza as a backdrop. ?I want to feel a part of the war,? one said, before correcting himself with the official government designation for the assault. ?I mean operation. It?s not a war.? (?)
Mr. Danino has a personal link to the fighting. His 20-year-old son, Moshe, is a soldier in an infantry unit fighting somewhere below his hilly perch. From the sidelines, he is here to root for his son the soldier, he says, just as he once sat on the sidelines of soccer fields cheering for his son the high-school athlete.
Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza.
?Look at that,? she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. ?Bravo! Bravo!? (?)
?It?s weird that we have to take lives in order to save lives,? Ms. Znaty says. ?But we were held hostage by Hamas while our government ignored us, and now we fight back. I am sorry, but I am happy.? (?)
Many Israelis see the Gaza offensive as a welcome change. ?I come here because our army is finally doing something, showing the world that we are not weak,? says Mr. Danino, the unemployed factory worker. On his hilltop overlooking Gaza, Mr. Danino has taken to quarterbacking the assault from his folding chair.
Having sat here for much of the past week, he now fancies himself something of an expert. He says, for example, that Palestinian militants are fond of firing rockets from the cover of a distant block of greenhouses.
When a plume of smoke ? the result of an Israeli attack ? rose from what appears to be empty farmland Monday, Mr. Danino shook his head. ?No, no, no,? he said. ?We should be hitting the greenhouses.?[/i]
After a couple of years of daily attacks, I’d probably set up shop to watch too. I think they are sick of Hamas’s shit…It’s just a guess, but I am pretty sure they are sick of being attacked daily.