Israel: Give Me A Motive!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

[i]War watching is not a new phenomenon. Up until World War I, when more powerful weapons began to be used on the battlefield, it was common for civilians to perch on grassy lookouts on a battlefield’s periphery.

Nor is it unique to Israelis in the current conflict. On the Egyptian side of the border, across from southern Gaza, Arabs, too, were coming from miles away to watch the aerial bombardment.[/i]

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

282

[quote]lixy wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Until Hamas is gone,

You make sense most of the time, but you’re completely off on this.

Hamas is not going anywhere. They grow stronger with every dead or maimed Palestinian by T’sahal. Short of blowing up the whole Gaza Strip, there’s not much Israel can do at this point. They starved them, blockaded them, assassinated their leaders, built walls and fences. And with everyone of these actions, they’re giving power to Hamas.

Hamas rockets and mortars stop targetting Israeli civilians,

What you mean, really, is that Palestinians have no right to resist. They should just be docile, nod their heads, fear the wrath of collective punishment and accept the status quo and the scattered Israeli-controlled bits of lands that are on the table. [/quote]

I think the Palestinians have rights and they should be able to work for recognition of those rights. But killing Jews is not the way to go about it.

[quote]
and suicide bombings stop, [/quote]

That is very doubtful. Islam breeds too much hatred and too much ignorance. Human sacrifice is a backwards aspect of the religion that is not going to go away.

[quote]
Get them jet fighters, tanks, bombs and rifles. See how many of them think about suicide.

Israel’s response is necessary. And justified.

Let me get this straight:

  • Hamas’ rockets have killed 15 Israelis in 7 years. Those rockets, while loud, make relatively little damage. Israelis have bomb-shelters.

  • Israeli bombs have killed 600 Palestinians in 10 days. The incessant air raids are terrorizing the population. They have nowhere to hide, as even UNRWA operated schools have been targeted.

And you then assert that Israel’s response is “justified”? This is absolute madness! [/quote]

Again Lixy you are playing it dumb to suit your purpose. You know damn well that this is not just about Hamas and the Palestinians.

Hamas and Hizbollah are proxy armies for Iran. Iran should by now have enough fuel for an atomic bomb. If anything is going to be done about Irans nuclear program, then Hamas and Hizbollah need to be either neutralized or severely degraded in their capabilities first.

Hamas made a deal with the devil (Iran) and now they have to pay the price.

Mark my words. If the Israelis are smart they will continue to pound Hamas until Hizbollah has to get involved or lose face. Yesterday Hizbollah shelled Northern Israel so it is beginning to happen. So the Israelis are on the right track.

Then the Israelis need to tear up Hizbollah so bad that the Syrians and the Iranians have to get involved or lose face. This will be the excuse Israel needs.

The dumbest thing the Israelis can do is give in to the EU and give a cease fire that will preserve the status quo of Israel’s enemies building up ever greater military capabilities.

In the greater scheme of things, a couple of hundred or thousand dead Palestinians is nothing, because a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran will kill millions and spread radioactive fallout all over the planet.

283

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version. [/quote]

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

[quote]How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously. [/quote]

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?

284

The UN is suspending aid operations in Gaza after one worker was killed and two others wounded when a UN forklift was targeted bu Israeli tank fire BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN suspends Gazan aid operation

According to the article the UN coordinates all of its movements with the Israeli Army, so there should have been no excuse for the hostile action taken against them. Seems to me that the Israelis are acting as vigilantes, pretty much just doing whatever they want.

Regardless of the reasoning behind this, its a shame when innocent civilians have to die because of negligent acts on both sides.

That said, it is also a shame that most aid organizations cannot operate in Gaza at the moment for fear of hostilities directed towards them. Oxfam has been unsucessful in bringing aid into the country, only small amounts are being let in, not enough to help everyone.

285

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Yet to hear anyone explain how this will solve Israel’s problems in any way, aside from making a small dent in Hamas’ effectiveness while likely increasing their public support many times over. Isn’t the goal to displace Hamas and re-install Fatah in Gaza? That makes this retaliation completely counter-productive.

It has a lot more to do with Israeli politics than it does with any real chance to defeat Hamas.[/quote]

Not at all. This is all about preparing the field of battle for a move on Iran.

286

[quote]druryk wrote:
The UN is suspending aid operations in Gaza after one worker was killed and two others wounded when a UN forklift was targeted bu Israeli tank fire BBC NEWS | Middle East | UN suspends Gazan aid operation

According to the article the UN coordinates all of its movements with the Israeli Army, so there should have been no excuse for the hostile action taken against them. Seems to me that the Israelis are acting as vigilantes, pretty much just doing whatever they want.

Regardless of the reasoning behind this, its a shame when innocent civilians have to die because of negligent acts on both sides.

That said, it is also a shame that most aid organizations cannot operate in Gaza at the moment for fear of hostilities directed towards them. Oxfam has been unsucessful in bringing aid into the country, only small amounts are being let in, not enough to help everyone. [/quote]

The UN is a worthless piece of shit anyway…Nobody will notice they are gone.

287

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?[/quote]

One you never took me up on.

Your word failing you?

288

[quote]rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?

One you never took me up on. [/quote]

Well, it was more of a de facto thing. But if you really insist, I’ll quit posting here. No big deal.

To get back on the Egyptian spectators from the hilltops, they’re not exactly applauding and rejoicing at the bombs. And that, despite many Egyptian border guards killed by Hamas. That is one crucial distinction the article isn’t making.

289

[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?

One you never took me up on.

Well, it was more of a de facto thing. But if you really insist, I’ll quit posting here. No big deal.

To get back on the Egyptian spectators from the hilltops, they’re not exactly applauding and rejoicing at the bombs. And that, despite many Egyptian border guards killed by Hamas. That is one crucial distinction the article isn’t making.[/quote]

You already made that promise and broke it. Why would anyone take your word now?

You are not a man of your word and cannot be trusted. Don’t post here for a year, as you commited to do, and prove us all wrong.

It’s not like anyone missed your internet jihad anyway.

290

[quote]hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?

One you never took me up on.

Well, it was more of a de facto thing. But if you really insist, I’ll quit posting here. No big deal.

To get back on the Egyptian spectators from the hilltops, they’re not exactly applauding and rejoicing at the bombs. And that, despite many Egyptian border guards killed by Hamas. That is one crucial distinction the article isn’t making.

You already made that promise and broke it. Why would anyone take your word now?

You are not a man of your word and cannot be trusted. Don’t post here for a year, as you commited to do, and prove us all wrong.

It’s not like anyone missed your internet jihad anyway.

[/quote]

I actually missed it. His lies are so easily exposed that he enables infidels in the know to expose Mohammedanism for what it actually is.

291

[quote]pat wrote:
Maybe the Euro weenies are finally sick of your lot’s, shit and are acting out in mean and nasty ways…[/quote]

…or a few of the terrorists were clumsy and dropped their firebombs before making it out the door.

292

[quote]pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
archiewhittaker wrote:
More attempts to kill Jews in Europe.

Firebombs are being thrown into synagogues in Sweden. Islamists drove a burning car into a synagogue in France, when there were 10 people inside.

  • many more incidents, the page is in Swedish, sorry.

If we did the same to Muslims in the US or Europe, what would happen? People might think were white supremacists or nuts or at least irrational. But in the Muslim community, this is looked upon as customary.

So I take it that you’ve never heard of a mosque being torched in Sweden?

http://www.sr.se/jamtland/nyheter/artikel.asp?artikel=2255218

And in France.

Maybe the Euro weenies are finally sick of your lot’s, shit and are acting out in mean and nasty ways…[/quote]

What are you supposed to do with buildings where jihad and hatred are preached against non-Muslims? Dance around them and sing songs? Did we wring our hands about breaking all of Hitler’s nice shiny buildings in WWII?

Of course, in lixy’s moral universe, it’s Judaism that’s the problem, not Islam.

293

Let’s rephrase the question.

What did Israel accomplish by this attack. Let’s not debate if it was in self-defence or not. Let’s concentrate on the question: is it usefull for the Israeli.

Do they really think they can overthrow Hamas rule in the Gaza strip by bombing the shit out of people. How did that work for the Allies in Germany? Hitler was still in power and he took his own life with Russian troops closing in on his bunker. The Germans didn’t overthrow his regime. Even Saddam had to be removed physically. The Iraqi didn’t revolt against him after the US invasion.

Was there ever a nation or a people convinced they should revolt against their leader (elected or dictator), by arguments in the form of bombs falling from the sky? I can’t think of any.

Seems like support for Hamas is growing on the West-Bank.

What do the Israeli hope to achieve? And have they a realistic scenario how to reach that goal? I don’t see any.

294

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
hedo wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Lixy leaves out part of the article in her edited, “make Israel look like the bad guy” version.

Me? Nah.

I copy/pasted it from a blog.

How long is a fucking year in baby-raping land?

Are we to assume you are not a woman of your word? Obviously.

Hey, you were the one to propose a double-or-nothing deal.

Memory failing you?

One you never took me up on.

Well, it was more of a de facto thing. But if you really insist, I’ll quit posting here. No big deal.

To get back on the Egyptian spectators from the hilltops, they’re not exactly applauding and rejoicing at the bombs. And that, despite many Egyptian border guards killed by Hamas. That is one crucial distinction the article isn’t making.

You already made that promise and broke it. Why would anyone take your word now?

You are not a man of your word and cannot be trusted. Don’t post here for a year, as you commited to do, and prove us all wrong.

It’s not like anyone missed your internet jihad anyway.

I actually missed it. His lies are so easily exposed that he enables infidels in the know to expose Mohammedanism for what it actually is. [/quote]

I second that. The flaws and contradictions in Lixy’s posts are easy enough to counter. If he wasn’t here to say some of this stuff we wouldn’t have anyone to argue against. He does keep it lively and spirited in here. Even if he goes away there are plenty of others who have views like his.

295

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Let’s rephrase the question.

What did Israel accomplish by this attack. Let’s not debate if it was in self-defence or not. Let’s concentrate on the question: is it usefull for the Israeli.

Do they really think they can overthrow Hamas rule in the Gaza strip by bombing the shit out of people. How did that work for the Allies in Germany? Hitler was still in power and he took his own life with Russian troops closing in on his bunker.

The Germans didn’t overthrow his regime. Even Saddam had to be removed physically. The Iraqi didn’t revolt against him after the US invasion.

Was there ever a nation or a people convinced they should revolt against their leader (elected or dictator), by arguments in the form of bombs falling from the sky? I can’t think of any.

Seems like support for Hamas is growing on the West-Bank.

What do the Israeli hope to achieve? And have they a realistic scenario how to reach that goal? I don’t see any.[/quote]

There is a lot being accomplished by this. One of the things holding up the Israeli strike on Irans nuclear facilities has been what to do about retaliation on Israel by Hamas and Hizbollah. It would make a lot of sense to take care of Hamas before.

One of the things that Hamas has been doing in Gaza is rounding up Fatah members and killing them. They are doing this because they know that is the Israelis can degrade their abilities enough Fatah could reestablish itself.

It would make a lot of sense for the Israelis to dislodge Hamas turn Gaza over to the Palestinian authority which is governing the West Bank then get out.

296

Very good article by Yglesias:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=how_the_us_should_be_involved_in_gaza

The defacto support of anything Israel chooses to do isnt good for the region, and isnt good for Israel itself.

Punchline:
[i]Most Americans with strong feelings about Israel don’t actually have strong feelings about the details of Israeli policy. Had the Israeli government chosen to talk rather than start bombing back in December, Americans would have supported them. Had the Israeli government bombed for a few days and then agreed to a cease-fire, Americans would have supported that. But instead the bombing was followed up by a land invasion, so they supported that instead. And politicians follow a similar lead. As France and Egypt were working on a cease-fire proposal Wednesday, Rep. Steny Hoyer was “scrambling to push out” a nonbinding resolution in support of Israeli policy, hoping to avoid being “out hawked” by House Republicans.

While this sort of politically motivated deference is understandable, it’s also incredibly counterproductive. The parties to the conflict aren’t really in need of any brilliant new substantive ideas from the United States – the basic shape of what an agreement would look like is well understood.

Nor are our services as mediators really needed – the Norwegians have proven capable of playing that role when asked, and no doubt others could do the same. What’s needed is something that changes the Israeli domestic calculation – a sense that the nature of the Israel-U.S. relationship will depend, in part, on the nature of Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

Any administration willing to publicly chastise an Israeli government will inevitably wind up ruffling some feathers and taking political heat for it, but it will almost certainly be for the Israelis’ own good. Jimmy Carter’s tough-love approach didn’t win him any fans among Israel’s most strident supporters, but at the end of the day, the resulting Egypt-Israel peace treaty has been enormously beneficial to Israel. [/i]

297

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Let’s rephrase the question.

What did Israel accomplish by this attack. Let’s not debate if it was in self-defence or not. Let’s concentrate on the question: is it usefull for the Israeli.

Do they really think they can overthrow Hamas rule in the Gaza strip by bombing the shit out of people. How did that work for the Allies in Germany? Hitler was still in power and he took his own life with Russian troops closing in on his bunker.

The Germans didn’t overthrow his regime. Even Saddam had to be removed physically. The Iraqi didn’t revolt against him after the US invasion.

Was there ever a nation or a people convinced they should revolt against their leader (elected or dictator), by arguments in the form of bombs falling from the sky? I can’t think of any.

Seems like support for Hamas is growing on the West-Bank.

What do the Israeli hope to achieve? And have they a realistic scenario how to reach that goal? I don’t see any.

There is a lot being accomplished by this. One of the things holding up the Israeli strike on Irans nuclear facilities has been what to do about retaliation on Israel by Hamas and Hizbollah. It would make a lot of sense to take care of Hamas before.

One of the things that Hamas has been doing in Gaza is rounding up Fatah members and killing them. They are doing this because they know that is the Israelis can degrade their abilities enough Fatah could reestablish itself.

It would make a lot of sense for the Israelis to dislodge Hamas turn Gaza over to the Palestinian authority which is governing the West Bank then get out.

[/quote]

Except for the inconvenient fact that people nearly always “rally round the flag” when they are attacked by outsiders, and Hamas’ support in Gaza will most likely be far stronger than if they had been forced to really govern.

298

Hope to hear from you in January of 2010, Lixy. Keep up the moral fight. You’ve done well.

299

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Except for the inconvenient fact that people nearly always “rally round the flag” when they are attacked by outsiders, and Hamas’ support in Gaza will most likely be far stronger than if they had been forced to really govern.[/quote]

G brings up a VERY important point.

Blaming all ones ills on someone else; holding almost weekly Anti-Israel/Anti-American rallies; lobbing rockets and mortars into Israel on almost a daily basis…

Rallying Anti-Israel/Anti-American fervor is certainly effective in keeping one in power; but it is not really governing.

Now…I can almost see someone typing the argument “One cannot really “govern” without a true sense of self-determination”.

As has been said many times, this will never occur as long as those who lead the Palestinians insist that their fundamental “governing” tenet be the complete destruction and elimination of Israel.

Mufasa

300

Which brings us back to the question: will this attack be productive for the Israelis? I just don’t see them dislodging Hamas?
Quite the opposite, support for Hamas is growing on the west bank.