Why is it that most of your favorite authors keep turning up on jihad or neo-Nazi sites? This, and your assertion that Henry Ford wasn’t an antisemite start making you look like you have a rather Qur’anic view of the Jews, lixy.
Henry Ford was indeed extremely anti-semitic. With America heading into World War I, Ford began a media blitz campaign against Jews that took off and continued well into the 1930s. He published “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (later proved to be a fraud, forgery, and hoax), “The International Jew,” (most allegations also proven groundless) and for ninety-one consecutive weeks, an uninterrupted serious of venomous essays in “The Dearborn Independent.” Declaring “I know who caused the war,” Henry Ford became ever more convinced that these “parasites, these sloths and lunatics … apostles of murder,” the “German-Jewish bankers,” were “liable for all society’s ills.”
An interesting note is that Hitler had a large framed portrait of Henry Ford, Sr. in his private office.
In his later years, Ford apologized for his anti-Semitic remarks, but many believe it was insincere.
Interesting. Maybe you should reference all this, compile it and file it under “Accusations of anti-semitism” on Ford’s wiki page.[/quote]
No need. There are many widely-acclaimed books exposing the breadth of Ford’s anti-semitism. And they are not accusations. They are facts. That he’s admitted to (and later apologized for, though as I said, many believe it was insincere).
You should read the book Henry Ford and the Jews. It doesn’t try to trash Ford as a manufacturing icon. It just sets the record straight and brings some honesty to the portrayal.
[quote]GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote
I appreciate your post but you need to re-read mine. I did not write “hundreds of thousands”. Please pay attention.
Yep. I did misread your post. My bad. Although hundreds and thousands are quite clearly a minority. I have my doubts about that footage but even if it was true (i.e they were knowingly and genuinely celebrating the death of those murdered in that barbaric act) it is nothing remotely like what I experienced. I wish they had shown footage of the parts of Gaza I saw on that day. The anguish and sadness was astonishing.
The astonishing anguish and sadness you saw was indeed for the United States of America, the only true blue supporter of Israel on the planet?
It was for the people killed. Is that really so hard to believe? Do you think I am making this up? Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed just like you don’t like to see innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians or whatever killed. Is that hard to believe? You do realize they are human beings don’t you?[/quote]
It’s hard to believe because their government DOES use them as human shields and deliberately makes schools, homes, community centers, and mosques targets by launching rockets FROM these places and building military infrastructure AT these places. And promotes and endorses suicide bombers to intentionally target Israeli CIVILIANS.
No doubt, individual Palestiians are innocent victims. This just makes it all the more tragic and the Palestinan government all the more despicable (though the government has managed to foster a culture of martyrdom in many). SOME Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed. Many celebrate their own deaths as martyrs. What makes you think they care when we die? They are not exactly our biggest fans. They detest us for our support of Israel.
Despicable but that is the relative rarity among Israelis. There is no way you could ever say that would be a rarity among the Palestinians if it were the other way around. Could you?
Has anyone here besides myself actually spent anytime in Gaza and/or the West Bank? Or had dealings with Palestinians? Or settlers in the Occupied Territories for that matter?
I haven’t read all of this thread but my experiences in these areas and with these people are so far removed from the bluster I keep hearing from people who as far as I can tell have absolutely no direct experience.
The people firing rockets into Israel are murderous scum. They are a minority. The people who live in absolute fear of military reprisal from fellow Palestinians, Israel military, racist murderous scum settlers, have humiliating antagonistic travel restrictions put on them by an authority imposed on them, who have had family members killed, who are restricted in water, electricity, medicine, education, who are humiliated at check points daily, who are so desperate for work they help build a wall they despise and oppose for meagre wages… these people are the majority of Palestinians.
They do not take up arms. They are horrified to hear of suicide bombings a) for the sorrow of those murdered and b) the undoubted reprisals they face. They are scared, hungry, poor, proud, kind people.
As always the egos of a few elites wreck havoc with lives of innocent people. Jew and Palestinian alike.
So the chanting mobs of hundreds and thousands yodeling howls of glee that I see on television news reports following events like 9-11 (and others), these people are the “minority” that you speak of?
Where’s the majority when the TV cameras are prowling around? At the bowling alley knocking back them eighteen packs of Odoul’s?
[/quote]
The fact that they elected hamas by a majority of over 70% are clearly aiming for peace.
Why is it that most of your favorite authors keep turning up on jihad or neo-Nazi sites? This, and your assertion that Henry Ford wasn’t an antisemite start making you look like you have a rather Qur’anic view of the Jews, lixy.
Henry Ford was indeed extremely anti-semitic. With America heading into World War I, Ford began a media blitz campaign against Jews that took off and continued well into the 1930s. He published “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (later proved to be a fraud, forgery, and hoax), “The International Jew,” (most allegations also proven groundless) and for ninety-one consecutive weeks, an uninterrupted serious of venomous essays in “The Dearborn Independent.” Declaring “I know who caused the war,” Henry Ford became ever more convinced that these “parasites, these sloths and lunatics … apostles of murder,” the “German-Jewish bankers,” were “liable for all society’s ills.”
An interesting note is that Hitler had a large framed portrait of Henry Ford, Sr. in his private office.
In his later years, Ford apologized for his anti-Semitic remarks, but many believe it was insincere.
Interesting. Maybe you should reference all this, compile it and file it under “Accusations of anti-semitism” on Ford’s wiki page.[/quote]
Uh, Henry Ford’s antisemitism is a well known fact. It’s not like a big secret someone just let out of the bag. He was pretty blatant about it.
[quote]GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote
I appreciate your post but you need to re-read mine. I did not write “hundreds of thousands”. Please pay attention.
Yep. I did misread your post. My bad. Although hundreds and thousands are quite clearly a minority. I have my doubts about that footage but even if it was true (i.e they were knowingly and genuinely celebrating the death of those murdered in that barbaric act) it is nothing remotely like what I experienced. I wish they had shown footage of the parts of Gaza I saw on that day. The anguish and sadness was astonishing.
The astonishing anguish and sadness you saw was indeed for the United States of America, the only true blue supporter of Israel on the planet?
It was for the people killed. Is that really so hard to believe? Do you think I am making this up? Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed just like you don’t like to see innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians or whatever killed. Is that hard to believe? You do realize they are human beings don’t you?[/quote]
I find it hard to believe. Considering the hate filled wrangle that comes from the elected leadership and the religious leadership that stirs the pot by calling for the deaths of all Israelis. The cartoons for kids to take up jihad. And the fact that the Palestinians elected the “muderous scum” is not helping me believe they are bleeding hearts for the Zionists. Why would they elect a group like Hamas into power if it were not for their hard-line stance against Israel?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote
I appreciate your post but you need to re-read mine. I did not write “hundreds of thousands”. Please pay attention.
Yep. I did misread your post. My bad. Although hundreds and thousands are quite clearly a minority. I have my doubts about that footage but even if it was true (i.e they were knowingly and genuinely celebrating the death of those murdered in that barbaric act) it is nothing remotely like what I experienced. I wish they had shown footage of the parts of Gaza I saw on that day. The anguish and sadness was astonishing.
The astonishing anguish and sadness you saw was indeed for the United States of America, the only true blue supporter of Israel on the planet?
It was for the people killed. Is that really so hard to believe? Do you think I am making this up? Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed just like you don’t like to see innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians or whatever killed. Is that hard to believe? You do realize they are human beings don’t you?
It’s hard to believe because their government DOES use them as human shields and deliberately makes schools, homes, community centers, and mosques targets by launching rockets FROM these places and building military infrastructure AT these places. And promotes and endorses suicide bombers to intentionally target Israeli CIVILIANS.
No doubt, individual Palestiians are innocent victims. This just makes it all the more tragic and the Palestinan government all the more despicable (though the government has managed to foster a culture of martyrdom in many). SOME Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed. Many celebrate their own deaths as martyrs. What makes you think they care when we die? They are not exactly our biggest fans. They detest us for our support of Israel. [/quote]
[quote]pat wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote
I appreciate your post but you need to re-read mine. I did not write “hundreds of thousands”. Please pay attention.
Yep. I did misread your post. My bad. Although hundreds and thousands are quite clearly a minority. I have my doubts about that footage but even if it was true
(i.e they were knowingly and genuinely celebrating the death of those murdered in that barbaric act) it is nothing remotely like what I experienced. I wish they had shown footage of the parts of Gaza I saw on that day. The anguish and sadness was astonishing.
The astonishing anguish and sadness you saw was indeed for the United States of America, the only true blue supporter of Israel on the planet?
It was for the people killed. Is that really so hard to believe? Do you think I am making this up? Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed just like you don’t like to see innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians or whatever killed. Is that hard to believe? You do realize they are human beings don’t you?
I find it hard to believe. Considering the hate filled wrangle that comes from the elected leadership and the religious leadership that stirs the pot by calling for the deaths of all Israelis. The cartoons for kids to take up jihad. And the fact that the Palestinians elected the “muderous scum” is not helping me believe they are bleeding hearts for the Zionists.
Why would they elect a group like Hamas into power if it were not for their hard-line stance against Israel?
[/quote]
Possibly because Fatah was incredibly corrupt and the years since Oslo had seen little meaningful change or improvement in the lives of average Palestinians?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
The most hardline Israeli settlers, if you didn’t know, aren’t any better than Hamas:
"And, in one of the starkest moments documented by journalists, Israeli journalists intervened to protect a Palestinian family from Jewish rioters.
It was a moment Haaretz journalist Avi Issacharoff bluntly called “a pogrom.” Avi
“This isn’t a play on words or a double meaning,” Issacharoff wrote. “It is a pogrom in the worst sense of the word.”
“The brain requires a minute or two to digest what is taking place,” he writes of going into the house and seeing the Palestinian family under attack. "Women and children crying bitterly, their faces giving off an expression of horror, sensing their imminent deaths, begging the journalists to save their lives. Stones land on the roof of the home, the windows and the doors. Flames engulf the southern entrance to the home. The front yard is littered with stones thrown by the masked men.
The windows are shattered and the children are frightened. All around, as if they were watching a rock concert, are hundreds of Jewish witnesses, observing the events with great interest, even offering suggestions to the Jewish wayward youth as to the most effective way to harm the family. And the police are not to be seen. Nor is the army."
“I thought they were going to lynch those people,” Issacharoff later told The Globe and Mail. "I couldn’t just stand by.
“I can’t believe that people - Israelis, Jews - can sink so low and do such things,” he said."
Despicable but that is the relative rarity among Israelis. There is no way you could ever say that would be a rarity among the Palestinians if it were the other way around. Could you?
Besides being the despicable rarity, it’s denounced by the government in addition to most citizens. In Palestine it IS the government that endorses, condones, promotes, and commits the worst atrocities.[/quote]
Yes and no. In Israel the government illegally put the settlers there in the first place. In Palestine Hamas is responsible for many attacks on Israel, but a lot are committed by Islamic Jihad and other independent groups.
Why is it that most of your favorite authors keep turning up on jihad or neo-Nazi sites? This, and your assertion that Henry Ford wasn’t an antisemite start making you look like you have a rather Qur’anic view of the Jews, lixy.
Henry Ford was indeed extremely anti-semitic. With America heading into World War I, Ford began a media blitz campaign against Jews that took off and continued well into the 1930s. He published “The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (later proved to be a fraud, forgery, and hoax), “The International Jew,” (most allegations also proven groundless) and for ninety-one consecutive weeks, an uninterrupted serious of venomous essays in “The Dearborn Independent.” Declaring “I know who caused the war,” Henry Ford became ever more convinced that these “parasites, these sloths and lunatics … apostles of murder,” the “German-Jewish bankers,” were “liable for all society’s ills.”
An interesting note is that Hitler had a large framed portrait of Henry Ford, Sr. in his private office.
In his later years, Ford apologized for his anti-Semitic remarks, but many believe it was insincere.
Interesting. Maybe you should reference all this, compile it and file it under “Accusations of anti-semitism” on Ford’s wiki page.
No need. There are many widely-acclaimed books exposing the breadth of Ford’s anti-semitism. And they are not accusations. They are facts. That he’s admitted to (and later apologized for, though as I said, many believe it was insincere).
You should read the book Henry Ford and the Jews. It doesn’t try to trash Ford as a manufacturing icon. It just sets the record straight and brings some honesty to the portrayal.[/quote]
Maybe I should read the book before addressing the issue. But that they’re “widely-acclaimed books” doesn’t make the thesis any stronger. There are, as I’m sure you know, a lot of jibber-jabber crap written all over the world all the time and widely-acclaimed.
If Henry Ford’s anti-semitism is as clear-cut as you make it out to be, you (or anyone else for that matter; jayjig, virginslim?) should have no trouble making the case on the wiki – the most consulted document about the man. Please don’t interpret this as an attack on your good faith. I know very little about Ford (what I barely remember from high school), and for all I know he may just be the most raving anti-semite to have walked the Earth. Just asking you to do the world a favour and add an appropriate section on the guy’s wiki page.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
pat wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GCF wrote:
pushharder wrote
I appreciate your post but you need to re-read mine. I did not write “hundreds of thousands”. Please pay attention.
Yep. I did misread your post. My bad. Although hundreds and thousands are quite clearly a minority. I have my doubts about that footage but even if it was true
(i.e they were knowingly and genuinely celebrating the death of those murdered in that barbaric act) it is nothing remotely like what I experienced. I wish they had shown footage of the parts of Gaza I saw on that day. The anguish and sadness was astonishing.
The astonishing anguish and sadness you saw was indeed for the United States of America, the only true blue supporter of Israel on the planet?
It was for the people killed. Is that really so hard to believe? Do you think I am making this up? Palestinians don’t like to see innocent Americans killed just like you don’t like to see innocent Palestinians, Israelis, Iraqis, Iranians or whatever killed. Is that hard to believe? You do realize they are human beings don’t you?
I find it hard to believe. Considering the hate filled wrangle that comes from the elected leadership and the religious leadership that stirs the pot by calling for the deaths of all Israelis. The cartoons for kids to take up jihad. And the fact that the Palestinians elected the “muderous scum” is not helping me believe they are bleeding hearts for the Zionists.
Why would they elect a group like Hamas into power if it were not for their hard-line stance against Israel?
Possibly because Fatah was incredibly corrupt and the years since Oslo had seen little meaningful change or improvement in the lives of average Palestinians?[/quote]
[i]At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.
A number of children were among those who died when the al-Falluj school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.
People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.
Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a “full-blown humanitarian crisis” in Gaza.
Speaking on the 11th day of the Israeli assault, a senior ICRC official, Pierre Kraehenbuhl, said life in Gaza had become intolerable.
Palestinian medical sources say up to 600 people have been killed since the attacks began, and Mr Kraehenbuhl said much more needed to be done to protect civilians.
At least 70 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday, while four Israeli soldiers were killed by fire from their own tanks.
Witnesses said at least one Israeli missile had struck the al-Falluj school as night fell on Tuesday, causing a large explosion and spraying shrapnel on people both inside and outside the building.
Hundreds of people had sought refuge inside the UN-run school in effort to escape the fighting between Israeli soldiers and militants on the outskirts of the refugee camp, to the east of Gaza City.
Television footage showed bodies scattered on the ground amid pools of blood. […]
This is the second Israeli air strike on a UN-run school in a day. […]
After the first attack, the director of the UN aid agency Unrwa, John Ging, said the conditions in Gaza were “horrific”.
“Nowhere is safe for civilians here in Gaza at the moment. They are fleeing their homes and they are right to do it when you look at the casualty numbers.”
“It’s very, very dangerous, and even the 14,000 who have sought refuge in our schools and shelters, they are not safe either.” […]
Information about what is happening inside Gaza is limited as Israel has barred foreign reporters from entering. [/i]
Lixy thats sad and all that crap but if Hamas wasn’t always trying to fuck with Israel this wouldn’t be the problem. I say carpet bomb the fuckers out of existance.
Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008.
Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ?We desire death like you desire life.?
[quote]John S. wrote:
Lixy thats sad and all that crap but if Hamas wasn’t always trying to fuck with Israel this wouldn’t be the problem. I say carpet bomb the fuckers out of existance.[/quote]
And, of course, this genocidal calls will go uncondemned.
What is surprising here, is the arrogance of this kid who has probably little more information on the conflict than the occasional Fox news bulletin and whatever he was told about the return of his savior.
Here’s what a Jewish Israeli with extensive knowledge about Middle-Eastern politics, and who has to put up with the Hamas rockets had to say:
[i]Earlier this morning, three Qassam rockets exploded in open areas in the western Negev in Israel. We go to the region to speak with Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel, and the author of Israel’s Occupation. – includes rush transcript –
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to Beersheba right now in Israel to Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. He?s author of the book Israel’s Occupation.
We just heard a description of the rockets going as far as the Negev. Can you talk about the effects of what is happening right now in Israel proper and what your thoughts are on this movement that Phyllis Bennis is describing around boycott, around divestment?
NEVE GORDON: Well, we just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous, as opposed to what Meagan said before. We have here a situation where actually Israel did leave the Gaza Strip three years ago, but it maintains sovereignty in any political science sense of the term. We’ve controlled all the borders. We’ve basically had an economic boycott on the Gaza Strip. And the people there have been living in what one should probably call as a prison. And they’ve been reacting with rockets, because probably that’s the only way that they can react.
And I think what Israel has been doing now has little to do with stopping the rockets, but actually it?s an election move inside Israel. It’s a move to build the reputation of the Israeli military after its humiliation in 2006. And what they’re actually doing is bombing from the air and massacring people, and we have to say no to this from here.
I’m not sure an international boycott on Israel is currently the way to go, because I think what we need is pressure from below, pressure from within Israel. As an Israeli citizen, I still believe in the importance of democracy and in the importance of the Israeli people also making a decision. This should be done through pressure. I agree with Phyllis on that. I think international pressure has to come. I think a divestment of the Occupied Territories and everything made in the Occupied Territories should be the first stage.
I think that Obama has a major role to play. He has been silent. And I think he can pressure the Israeli government into reaching agreement with the Palestinian people. I think today and for the past years, Israel has been the obstacle to peace in the Middle East, because it’s not willing to compromise on the three major issues, which is a return to the 1967 borders, it’s the division of Jerusalem, and it’s a recognition of the right of return of the Palestinians with a stipulation that only a small amount can return back to Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you see the Obama administration, as he’s now constituted it, going in this direction? Do you see any signs of this, Professor Gordon?
NEVE GORDON: I see?I hear silence. Now, I think I’ve written that Obama has an opportunity, because what it needs to bring peace in the Middle East is?or between Israel and the Palestinians is now known. We’ve had the Geneva Accords. We’ve had the Sari Nuseibeh and Ayalon. We’ve had the Arab Initiative. What needs to be done is clear. What is also clear is that regardless of the elections in Israel, the government that will be chosen will not go in the direction of peace.
Now, the third facet is that a majority of Israelis will probably vote for a two-state solution. My suggestion to Obama is to take?to write up an Obama plan, which I say I think is clear what needs to be done, and to go over the Israeli government and to bring it to a referendum to the Israeli people, and ask them, "Do you want a two-state solution?’ We have a constellation, a configuration in the Israeli government, that a large minority will control any government and not allow it to make peace, regardless of what happens in the elections. And so, what we need is some kind of intervention from outside to go directly to the people. I think the people of Israel, if the American president will come and say, “Listen, you take it, and if not, you’ll be penalized, too. You take the two-state solution, and if not, you’ll be penalized.” And I think that is probably the way to go for Obama. I don?t know whether he’ll do it or not.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, as you said, your kids are in a bomb shelter now. You’re in the Negev. We have seen many images of the rockets, the effect of the rockets hitting Sderot. But we?ve heard little voice from Israelis like you. And I’m wondering, is that an effect of the US media or the Israeli media? Or are those voices not that loud? In Sderot, for example, there is an alternative group that is called Alternative Voices, who actually, despite the rockets there, are calling for an end to the blockade and are calling for a ceasefire, calling for an end to the attack on Gaza. And this is over 1,800 people of Sderot.
NEVE GORDON: There is an alternative movement. This past Saturday?you mentioned protests around the world?I participated in a protest with my children in Tel Aviv. There were about between 5,000 and 10,000 people, which, proportional to the population, is not a small protest. The vast majority?let us not delude ourselves, because the vast majority of the people in Israel do support. There are plenty of voices against. If you read Ha?aretz, the Israeli newspaper, people like Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, you’ll see that there are voices that are against.
The problem is that most Israelis say what Meagan said before. They say, “Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago, and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us.” They forget the details. The details is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The details is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The details is that they don’t get basic foodstuff, that they don’t get electricity, that they don’t get water, and so forth. And when you forget those kinds of details, and all you say is, “Here, we left them. Why are they still shooting at us?” and that?s what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that’s what’s missing in the mainstream media here. And so, although there are voices of resistance in Israel and although there was a quite big protest on?actually, two big protests on Saturday, one in Sakhnin and one in Tel Aviv, it is still a really small minority.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, I want to thank you for being with us, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, speaking to us from Beersheba. His book is called Israel’s Occupation. Phyllis Bennis, thank you for being with us, fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C. When we come back, we go back to Gaza.[/i]
Oviously, a secret nihilist Islamist working for Al-Qaeda. He’s got to be, right?
[quote]hedo wrote:
Following are excerpts from a speech delivered by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on February 29, 2008.
Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ?We desire death like you desire life.?
Yeah, none of these facts will stop the resident Islamic obfuscator and his ‘patriot’ lackies from believing what they want about Israel.
The Muslims aren’t capable of living next to anyone in the world peacefully, but here we’re expected to set that fact aside and believe that it’s all about territory the size of Delaware, not jihad or Qur’anic antisemitism. But there’s never any outrage whatsoever (especially from the ‘patriot’ crowd) when Muslims and Muslim Arabs wage jihad against infidels, and there have been at least 11000 such attacks since 9/11 with a body count much higher.
When we extract mea culpas from the Muslims for 1300 years of jihad, rape, theft, and murder, then, and only then, will I start to concern myself with the Israeli side of things. It wasn’t ‘Israel’ that caused the Arabs to wage jihad in Spain in the 700s nor ‘Israel’ that caused the Turks to wipe out the Anatolian Greeks and Armenians, etc: it was Islamic jihad. Same thing here.
[quote]lixy wrote:
This just in. File under they’ve-gone-mad
Strike on Gaza school ‘kills 40’
[i]At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.
A number of children were among those who died when the al-Falluj school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.
People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.
Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a “full-blown humanitarian crisis” in Gaza.
Speaking on the 11th day of the Israeli assault, a senior ICRC official, Pierre Kraehenbuhl, said life in Gaza had become intolerable.
Palestinian medical sources say up to 600 people have been killed since the attacks began, and Mr Kraehenbuhl said much more needed to be done to protect civilians.
At least 70 Palestinians were killed on Tuesday, while four Israeli soldiers were killed by fire from their own tanks.
Witnesses said at least one Israeli missile had struck the al-Falluj school as night fell on Tuesday, causing a large explosion and spraying shrapnel on people both inside and outside the building.
Hundreds of people had sought refuge inside the UN-run school in effort to escape the fighting between Israeli soldiers and militants on the outskirts of the refugee camp, to the east of Gaza City.
Television footage showed bodies scattered on the ground amid pools of blood. […]
This is the second Israeli air strike on a UN-run school in a day. […]
After the first attack, the director of the UN aid agency Unrwa, John Ging, said the conditions in Gaza were “horrific”.
“Nowhere is safe for civilians here in Gaza at the moment. They are fleeing their homes and they are right to do it when you look at the casualty numbers.”
“It’s very, very dangerous, and even the 14,000 who have sought refuge in our schools and shelters, they are not safe either.” […]
Information about what is happening inside Gaza is limited as Israel has barred foreign reporters from entering. [/i]
[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Lixy thats sad and all that crap but if Hamas wasn’t always trying to fuck with Israel this wouldn’t be the problem. I say carpet bomb the fuckers out of existance.
And, of course, this genocidal calls will go uncondemned.
What is surprising here, is the arrogance of this kid who has probably little more information on the conflict than the occasional Fox news bulletin and whatever he was told about the return of his savior.
Here’s what a Jewish Israeli with extensive knowledge about Middle-Eastern politics, and who has to put up with the Hamas rockets had to say:
[i]Earlier this morning, three Qassam rockets exploded in open areas in the western Negev in Israel. We go to the region to speak with Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel, and the author of Israel’s Occupation. – includes rush transcript –
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to Beersheba right now in Israel to Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. He?s author of the book Israel’s Occupation.
We just heard a description of the rockets going as far as the Negev. Can you talk about the effects of what is happening right now in Israel proper and what your thoughts are on this movement that Phyllis Bennis is describing around boycott, around divestment?
NEVE GORDON: Well, we just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous, as opposed to what Meagan said before. We have here a situation where actually Israel did leave the Gaza Strip three years ago, but it maintains sovereignty in any political science sense of the term. We’ve controlled all the borders. We’ve basically had an economic boycott on the Gaza Strip. And the people there have been living in what one should probably call as a prison. And they’ve been reacting with rockets, because probably that’s the only way that they can react.
And I think what Israel has been doing now has little to do with stopping the rockets, but actually it?s an election move inside Israel. It’s a move to build the reputation of the Israeli military after its humiliation in 2006. And what they’re actually doing is bombing from the air and massacring people, and we have to say no to this from here.
I’m not sure an international boycott on Israel is currently the way to go, because I think what we need is pressure from below, pressure from within Israel. As an Israeli citizen, I still believe in the importance of democracy and in the importance of the Israeli people also making a decision. This should be done through pressure. I agree with Phyllis on that. I think international pressure has to come. I think a divestment of the Occupied Territories and everything made in the Occupied Territories should be the first stage.
I think that Obama has a major role to play. He has been silent. And I think he can pressure the Israeli government into reaching agreement with the Palestinian people. I think today and for the past years, Israel has been the obstacle to peace in the Middle East, because it’s not willing to compromise on the three major issues, which is a return to the 1967 borders, it’s the division of Jerusalem, and it’s a recognition of the right of return of the Palestinians with a stipulation that only a small amount can return back to Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you see the Obama administration, as he’s now constituted it, going in this direction? Do you see any signs of this, Professor Gordon?
NEVE GORDON: I see?I hear silence. Now, I think I’ve written that Obama has an opportunity, because what it needs to bring peace in the Middle East is?or between Israel and the Palestinians is now known. We’ve had the Geneva Accords. We’ve had the Sari Nuseibeh and Ayalon. We’ve had the Arab Initiative. What needs to be done is clear. What is also clear is that regardless of the elections in Israel, the government that will be chosen will not go in the direction of peace.
Now, the third facet is that a majority of Israelis will probably vote for a two-state solution. My suggestion to Obama is to take?to write up an Obama plan, which I say I think is clear what needs to be done, and to go over the Israeli government and to bring it to a referendum to the Israeli people, and ask them, "Do you want a two-state solution?’ We have a constellation, a configuration in the Israeli government, that a large minority will control any government and not allow it to make peace, regardless of what happens in the elections. And so, what we need is some kind of intervention from outside to go directly to the people. I think the people of Israel, if the American president will come and say, “Listen, you take it, and if not, you’ll be penalized, too. You take the two-state solution, and if not, you’ll be penalized.” And I think that is probably the way to go for Obama. I don?t know whether he’ll do it or not.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, as you said, your kids are in a bomb shelter now. You’re in the Negev. We have seen many images of the rockets, the effect of the rockets hitting Sderot. But we?ve heard little voice from Israelis like you. And I’m wondering, is that an effect of the US media or the Israeli media? Or are those voices not that loud? In Sderot, for example, there is an alternative group that is called Alternative Voices, who actually, despite the rockets there, are calling for an end to the blockade and are calling for a ceasefire, calling for an end to the attack on Gaza. And this is over 1,800 people of Sderot.
NEVE GORDON: There is an alternative movement. This past Saturday?you mentioned protests around the world?I participated in a protest with my children in Tel Aviv. There were about between 5,000 and 10,000 people, which, proportional to the population, is not a small protest. The vast majority?let us not delude ourselves, because the vast majority of the people in Israel do support. There are plenty of voices against. If you read Ha?aretz, the Israeli newspaper, people like Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, you’ll see that there are voices that are against.
The problem is that most Israelis say what Meagan said before. They say, “Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago, and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us.” They forget the details. The details is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The details is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The details is that they don’t get basic foodstuff, that they don’t get electricity, that they don’t get water, and so forth. And when you forget those kinds of details, and all you say is, “Here, we left them. Why are they still shooting at us?” and that?s what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that’s what’s missing in the mainstream media here. And so, although there are voices of resistance in Israel and although there was a quite big protest on?actually, two big protests on Saturday, one in Sakhnin and one in Tel Aviv, it is still a really small minority.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, I want to thank you for being with us, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, speaking to us from Beersheba. His book is called Israel’s Occupation. Phyllis Bennis, thank you for being with us, fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C. When we come back, we go back to Gaza.[/i]
Oviously, a secret nihilist Islamist working for Al-Qaeda. He’s got to be, right?
Right?[/quote]
Big deal, we have a bunch of self-loathing university professors here as well. War is ugly and people die, such has been the case for all of history. You want the problem solved, I really do not see a way around armed conflict.
The Palestinians have been the biggest impediment to peace, the biggest impediment to having their own sovereign nation, to their own economic problems. All they had to do is to stop the violence and terror attacks. That’s it. Nothing more is or was required of them. You have many nations ready, willing and able to help them set up their own government and their own land to do with what they please; this include the U.S. You have all of this stuff pre-negotiated with Egypt Israel and so on…What is required of the Palistinin’s? Stop the violence.
All the Palestinians ever had to do is stop the violence and threatened no more violence…That’s it. It is that simple, but yet they are so driven by hate that they are incapable of just knocking it off.
In the end, what the fuck do you expect? Israel is surrounded by enemies. They have been attacked in some way, shape or form almost daily. How much longer do you think they are going to tkae it especially when they have the means to stop it. This shit needs to end now. The palestinians have proven time and time and time again that they are incapable of peaceful coexistence with Jews. They’d rather die, then accept a Jew as a person. So it is as they wished it to be.
[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
Lixy thats sad and all that crap but if Hamas wasn’t always trying to fuck with Israel this wouldn’t be the problem. I say carpet bomb the fuckers out of existance.
And, of course, this genocidal calls will go uncondemned.
What is surprising here, is the arrogance of this kid who has probably little more information on the conflict than the occasional Fox news bulletin and whatever he was told about the return of his savior.
Here’s what a Jewish Israeli with extensive knowledge about Middle-Eastern politics, and who has to put up with the Hamas rockets had to say:
[i]Earlier this morning, three Qassam rockets exploded in open areas in the western Negev in Israel. We go to the region to speak with Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Israel, and the author of Israel’s Occupation. – includes rush transcript –
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to Beersheba right now in Israel to Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Israel. He?s author of the book Israel’s Occupation.
We just heard a description of the rockets going as far as the Negev. Can you talk about the effects of what is happening right now in Israel proper and what your thoughts are on this movement that Phyllis Bennis is describing around boycott, around divestment?
NEVE GORDON: Well, we just had a rocket about an hour ago not far from our house. My two children have been sleeping in a bomb shelter for the past week. And yet, I think what Israel is doing is outrageous, as opposed to what Meagan said before. We have here a situation where actually Israel did leave the Gaza Strip three years ago, but it maintains sovereignty in any political science sense of the term. We’ve controlled all the borders. We’ve basically had an economic boycott on the Gaza Strip. And the people there have been living in what one should probably call as a prison. And they’ve been reacting with rockets, because probably that’s the only way that they can react.
And I think what Israel has been doing now has little to do with stopping the rockets, but actually it?s an election move inside Israel. It’s a move to build the reputation of the Israeli military after its humiliation in 2006. And what they’re actually doing is bombing from the air and massacring people, and we have to say no to this from here.
I’m not sure an international boycott on Israel is currently the way to go, because I think what we need is pressure from below, pressure from within Israel. As an Israeli citizen, I still believe in the importance of democracy and in the importance of the Israeli people also making a decision. This should be done through pressure. I agree with Phyllis on that. I think international pressure has to come. I think a divestment of the Occupied Territories and everything made in the Occupied Territories should be the first stage.
I think that Obama has a major role to play. He has been silent. And I think he can pressure the Israeli government into reaching agreement with the Palestinian people. I think today and for the past years, Israel has been the obstacle to peace in the Middle East, because it’s not willing to compromise on the three major issues, which is a return to the 1967 borders, it’s the division of Jerusalem, and it’s a recognition of the right of return of the Palestinians with a stipulation that only a small amount can return back to Israel.
AMY GOODMAN: And do you see the Obama administration, as he’s now constituted it, going in this direction? Do you see any signs of this, Professor Gordon?
NEVE GORDON: I see?I hear silence. Now, I think I’ve written that Obama has an opportunity, because what it needs to bring peace in the Middle East is?or between Israel and the Palestinians is now known. We’ve had the Geneva Accords. We’ve had the Sari Nuseibeh and Ayalon. We’ve had the Arab Initiative. What needs to be done is clear. What is also clear is that regardless of the elections in Israel, the government that will be chosen will not go in the direction of peace.
Now, the third facet is that a majority of Israelis will probably vote for a two-state solution. My suggestion to Obama is to take?to write up an Obama plan, which I say I think is clear what needs to be done, and to go over the Israeli government and to bring it to a referendum to the Israeli people, and ask them, "Do you want a two-state solution?’ We have a constellation, a configuration in the Israeli government, that a large minority will control any government and not allow it to make peace, regardless of what happens in the elections. And so, what we need is some kind of intervention from outside to go directly to the people. I think the people of Israel, if the American president will come and say, “Listen, you take it, and if not, you’ll be penalized, too. You take the two-state solution, and if not, you’ll be penalized.” And I think that is probably the way to go for Obama. I don?t know whether he’ll do it or not.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, as you said, your kids are in a bomb shelter now. You’re in the Negev. We have seen many images of the rockets, the effect of the rockets hitting Sderot. But we?ve heard little voice from Israelis like you. And I’m wondering, is that an effect of the US media or the Israeli media? Or are those voices not that loud? In Sderot, for example, there is an alternative group that is called Alternative Voices, who actually, despite the rockets there, are calling for an end to the blockade and are calling for a ceasefire, calling for an end to the attack on Gaza. And this is over 1,800 people of Sderot.
NEVE GORDON: There is an alternative movement. This past Saturday?you mentioned protests around the world?I participated in a protest with my children in Tel Aviv. There were about between 5,000 and 10,000 people, which, proportional to the population, is not a small protest. The vast majority?let us not delude ourselves, because the vast majority of the people in Israel do support. There are plenty of voices against. If you read Ha?aretz, the Israeli newspaper, people like Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, you’ll see that there are voices that are against.
The problem is that most Israelis say what Meagan said before. They say, “Israel left the Gaza Strip three years ago, and Hamas is still shooting rockets at us.” They forget the details. The details is that Israel maintains sovereignty. The details is that the Palestinians live in a cage. The details is that they don’t get basic foodstuff, that they don’t get electricity, that they don’t get water, and so forth. And when you forget those kinds of details, and all you say is, “Here, we left them. Why are they still shooting at us?” and that?s what the media here has been pumping them with, then you think this war is rational. If you look at what’s been going on in the Gaza Strip in the past three years and you see what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians, you would think that the Palestinian resistance is rational. And that’s what’s missing in the mainstream media here. And so, although there are voices of resistance in Israel and although there was a quite big protest on?actually, two big protests on Saturday, one in Sakhnin and one in Tel Aviv, it is still a really small minority.
AMY GOODMAN: Neve Gordon, I want to thank you for being with us, chair of the Department of Politics and Government, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, speaking to us from Beersheba. His book is called Israel’s Occupation. Phyllis Bennis, thank you for being with us, fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington, D.C. When we come back, we go back to Gaza.[/i]
Oviously, a secret nihilist Islamist working for Al-Qaeda. He’s got to be, right?
Right?[/quote]
Lixy calling someone else an arrogant and misinformed kid…priceless humor!
Lixy these people you are trying to defend want death. Why should I care if this is what they want. I say you poke the sleeping bear you deserved to get mauled.
Peter Hitchens (nothing like his brother) speaks sense:
"Since we were already arguing about the Middle East, I thought I’d devote a special section of this week’s posting to the Gaza outbreak, still under way as I write. Here it is. Even though all the usual suspects, the Judophobes, the diplomats, the gullible liberals, say that what Israel is doing now in Gaza is wrong, it really is wrong.
My position, as a strong supporter of Israel in general, is that Israel’s action is wrong morally and gravely mistaken politically. Attacks from the air always kill innocents. It is no good pleading that you regret such deaths, when you knew perfectly well that your actions were bound to cause them. This was equally true of our own adventures in Iraq and Serbia, and is true of American bombing in Afghanistan. Israel’s moral position is seriously weakened by the deaths of these innocents, and also by the flanneling and evasion of its spokesmen over this.
And just because the usual anti-Israel voices squeak that the action is ‘disproportionate’ ( as squeak they will, since for them Israel can never do anything right) Israel and its uncritical defenders should not assume that the word is out of place. The rocketing of Israeli civilians by Hamas is a repellent form of terrorist murder. But the bombing of Gaza by F-16s, subjecting huge numbers of civilians to the maddening terror of aerial attack, not to mention the tragedies concealed within the phrase ‘collateral damage’ is what exactly? Yes, you can argue that the Hamas rockets are specifically intended to kill innocent people, as they are, whereas the F-16s are targeting Hamas militants. But, see above, even the smartest bomb cannot choose exactly who will be in range of its blast, shrapnel and heat. Those who ordered the bombing knew for certain that women and children, and other non-combatants, would die and be maimed. The difference between the two actions is nothing like as great as Israel would like to believe.
Also, what is the point of this brainless flailing? Does anyone in Jerusalem really imagine that, if a few hundred Hamas militants are killed, there will be no replacements for them? Does anyone really think that anything short of a re-occupation of parts of Gaza (at enormous human and political cost, and probably unsustainable in the long-term) will stop the rockets? My guess is that rockets will still be landing on Sderot six months from now, and that Israel’s political and moral position will by then be significantly weaker than it was before it launched this unwise assault. The action is as dim and misconceived as the blundering attack on Southern Lebanon under the same leadership. Both have no clear, achievable purpose. Both are propaganda gifts to the enemies of Israel, who are immensely skilled at portraying this tiny, endangered country as a giant aggressor, and who have had endless help in doing so from the stupider parts of the Israeli establishment. Both will end by demoralising the Israeli armed forces and people.
My suspicion is that these actions are entirely driven by Israeli internal politics, by the general inadequacy of the current political leadership there, and also by an underlying despair - the kind of dismal dead end which sometimes drives otherwise intelligent people into doomed adventures. Demography, the rising power of anti-Israel Russia, the increasingly pro-Arab stance of the EU, the likelihood that the USA will once again demand that Israel takes the Neville Chamberlain route to unsustainable ’ land for peace’ deals, the quiet emigration of many of Israel’s brightest and best, the alarming success of Iran’s sponsorship of Hizbollah and Hamas ( a far more genuine threat to Israel than Iran’s fumbling progress towards a nuclear weapon) must have an influence. But these facts merely explain the buffoonery of the Gaza attack. They don’t excuse it."
