Israel and Smugglers/Aid Workers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Israelis are fast backing off the claim that the people on the ships had guns.I support their right to search these ships,but they really got sucker punched here.I don’t see how this was allowed to go down the way it did.It’s a fuck up for them.Stop and board them close to your territorial waters,at least.[/quote]

What difference does it make how close they let them get?[/quote]

From a p.r. standpoint?Territorial waters are considered sovereign territory.You don’t think that makes a difference?[/quote]

They proclaimed they were going to gaza. It isn’t like they attacked someone’s port to intercept the boats.

I think the only difference is semantics. People who don’t like Israel will use it to criticize, but had they waited, the same people wouldn’t change their mind about the situation.

My first thought when I heard the story was, “WTF is Israel doing?”. But looking at the video and the situation, I don’t think they did anything wrong.

If they had waited for territorial waters, then this shit had gone down, would it change your opinion of the situation?[/quote]

My opinion of the situation as a pr disaster?Yes.The whole thing would have gone down the same,probably.I don’t have too much of an issue with how it went down other than that.Don’t you think it would have been better for Israel?[/quote]

To be clear, I do think it will have a big PR impact. And it is a big negative for Israel in public opinion.

What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t and it doesn’t change the write or wrong of the situation. Plus you have to remember that if Israel listened to the people who cry foul about these things, they’d all be dead by now.[/quote]

So what if they had boarded them just outside Turkish territorial waters?Still as right?Less right?In or close to Israeli territorial waters there is no argument.

122

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Israelis are fast backing off the claim that the people on the ships had guns.I support their right to search these ships,but they really got sucker punched here.I don’t see how this was allowed to go down the way it did.It’s a fuck up for them.Stop and board them close to your territorial waters,at least.[/quote]

What difference does it make how close they let them get?[/quote]

From a p.r. standpoint?Territorial waters are considered sovereign territory.You don’t think that makes a difference?[/quote]

They proclaimed they were going to gaza. It isn’t like they attacked someone’s port to intercept the boats.

I think the only difference is semantics. People who don’t like Israel will use it to criticize, but had they waited, the same people wouldn’t change their mind about the situation.

My first thought when I heard the story was, “WTF is Israel doing?”. But looking at the video and the situation, I don’t think they did anything wrong.

If they had waited for territorial waters, then this shit had gone down, would it change your opinion of the situation?[/quote]

My opinion of the situation as a pr disaster?Yes.The whole thing would have gone down the same,probably.I don’t have too much of an issue with how it went down other than that.Don’t you think it would have been better for Israel?[/quote]

To be clear, I do think it will have a big PR impact. And it is a big negative for Israel in public opinion.

What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t and it doesn’t change the write or wrong of the situation. Plus you have to remember that if Israel listened to the people who cry foul about these things, they’d all be dead by now.[/quote]

So what if they had boarded them just outside Turkish territorial waters?Still as right?Less right?In or close to Israeli territorial waters there is no argument.[/quote]

I do think it would be different if Israel sailed in close to someone else’s waters to board the ship. I was kind of assuming since they were making a run at the blockade, they were close to Israeli waters. I don’t see any info on specifically where the boat was and how close they were. But if they were within reasonable distance, it doesn’t matter. I mean it isn’t in question where they were headed. Why should it make a difference?

123

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Israelis are fast backing off the claim that the people on the ships had guns.I support their right to search these ships,but they really got sucker punched here.I don’t see how this was allowed to go down the way it did.It’s a fuck up for them.Stop and board them close to your territorial waters,at least.[/quote]

What difference does it make how close they let them get?[/quote]

From a p.r. standpoint?Territorial waters are considered sovereign territory.You don’t think that makes a difference?[/quote]

They proclaimed they were going to gaza. It isn’t like they attacked someone’s port to intercept the boats.

I think the only difference is semantics. People who don’t like Israel will use it to criticize, but had they waited, the same people wouldn’t change their mind about the situation.

My first thought when I heard the story was, “WTF is Israel doing?”. But looking at the video and the situation, I don’t think they did anything wrong.

If they had waited for territorial waters, then this shit had gone down, would it change your opinion of the situation?[/quote]

My opinion of the situation as a pr disaster?Yes.The whole thing would have gone down the same,probably.I don’t have too much of an issue with how it went down other than that.Don’t you think it would have been better for Israel?[/quote]

To be clear, I do think it will have a big PR impact. And it is a big negative for Israel in public opinion.

What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t and it doesn’t change the write or wrong of the situation. Plus you have to remember that if Israel listened to the people who cry foul about these things, they’d all be dead by now.[/quote]

So what if they had boarded them just outside Turkish territorial waters?Still as right?Less right?In or close to Israeli territorial waters there is no argument.[/quote]

I do think it would be different if Israel sailed in close to someone else’s waters to board the ship. I was kind of assuming since they were making a run at the blockade, they were close to Israeli waters. I don’t see any info on specifically where the boat was and how close they were. But if they were within reasonable distance, it doesn’t matter. I mean it isn’t in question where they were headed. Why should it make a difference?[/quote]

Do you dispute the validity of the sovereign territory argument?If you know some guy is going to break into your house,do you shoot him one street away from your house?

124

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Israelis are fast backing off the claim that the people on the ships had guns.I support their right to search these ships,but they really got sucker punched here.I don’t see how this was allowed to go down the way it did.It’s a fuck up for them.Stop and board them close to your territorial waters,at least.[/quote]

What difference does it make how close they let them get?[/quote]

From a p.r. standpoint?Territorial waters are considered sovereign territory.You don’t think that makes a difference?[/quote]

They proclaimed they were going to gaza. It isn’t like they attacked someone’s port to intercept the boats.

I think the only difference is semantics. People who don’t like Israel will use it to criticize, but had they waited, the same people wouldn’t change their mind about the situation.

My first thought when I heard the story was, “WTF is Israel doing?”. But looking at the video and the situation, I don’t think they did anything wrong.

If they had waited for territorial waters, then this shit had gone down, would it change your opinion of the situation?[/quote]

My opinion of the situation as a pr disaster?Yes.The whole thing would have gone down the same,probably.I don’t have too much of an issue with how it went down other than that.Don’t you think it would have been better for Israel?[/quote]

To be clear, I do think it will have a big PR impact. And it is a big negative for Israel in public opinion.

What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t and it doesn’t change the write or wrong of the situation. Plus you have to remember that if Israel listened to the people who cry foul about these things, they’d all be dead by now.[/quote]

So what if they had boarded them just outside Turkish territorial waters?Still as right?Less right?In or close to Israeli territorial waters there is no argument.[/quote]

I do think it would be different if Israel sailed in close to someone else’s waters to board the ship. I was kind of assuming since they were making a run at the blockade, they were close to Israeli waters. I don’t see any info on specifically where the boat was and how close they were. But if they were within reasonable distance, it doesn’t matter. I mean it isn’t in question where they were headed. Why should it make a difference?[/quote]

Do you dispute the validity of the sovereign territory argument?If you know some guy is going to break into your house,do you shoot him one street away from your house? [/quote]

If he is on the street with a gun, running at my property, proclaiming he is going to kill me, I may very well shoot him a few steps away from my property.

But who gets to specify how far territorial waters go? that is a whole lot grayer than a property line. Do you really think there is an exact line out in the ocean that justifies when a country can take action to engage a perceived threat?

It seems that the engagement was reasonable to me.

Was the US wrong to blockade Cuba during the missile crisis?

Would it be wrong to shoot down an ICBM before it was in your air space?

Didn’t the US navy engage German submarines in international waters before the US went to war?

Like I said, you can only judge what is reasonable. The Israelis are literally fighting for their lives. Nothing they did seems unreasonable.

125

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
The Israelis are fast backing off the claim that the people on the ships had guns.I support their right to search these ships,but they really got sucker punched here.I don’t see how this was allowed to go down the way it did.It’s a fuck up for them.Stop and board them close to your territorial waters,at least.[/quote]

What difference does it make how close they let them get?[/quote]

From a p.r. standpoint?Territorial waters are considered sovereign territory.You don’t think that makes a difference?[/quote]

They proclaimed they were going to gaza. It isn’t like they attacked someone’s port to intercept the boats.

I think the only difference is semantics. People who don’t like Israel will use it to criticize, but had they waited, the same people wouldn’t change their mind about the situation.

My first thought when I heard the story was, “WTF is Israel doing?”. But looking at the video and the situation, I don’t think they did anything wrong.

If they had waited for territorial waters, then this shit had gone down, would it change your opinion of the situation?[/quote]

My opinion of the situation as a pr disaster?Yes.The whole thing would have gone down the same,probably.I don’t have too much of an issue with how it went down other than that.Don’t you think it would have been better for Israel?[/quote]

To be clear, I do think it will have a big PR impact. And it is a big negative for Israel in public opinion.

What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t and it doesn’t change the write or wrong of the situation. Plus you have to remember that if Israel listened to the people who cry foul about these things, they’d all be dead by now.[/quote]

So what if they had boarded them just outside Turkish territorial waters?Still as right?Less right?In or close to Israeli territorial waters there is no argument.[/quote]

I do think it would be different if Israel sailed in close to someone else’s waters to board the ship. I was kind of assuming since they were making a run at the blockade, they were close to Israeli waters. I don’t see any info on specifically where the boat was and how close they were. But if they were within reasonable distance, it doesn’t matter. I mean it isn’t in question where they were headed. Why should it make a difference?[/quote]

Do you dispute the validity of the sovereign territory argument?If you know some guy is going to break into your house,do you shoot him one street away from your house? [/quote]

If he is on the street with a gun, running at my property, proclaiming he is going to kill me, I may very well shoot him a few steps away from my property.

But who gets to specify how far territorial waters go? that is a whole lot grayer than a property line. Do you really think there is an exact line out in the ocean that justifies when a country can take action to engage a perceived threat?

It seems that the engagement was reasonable to me.

Was the US wrong to blockade Cuba during the missile crisis?

Would it be wrong to shoot down an ICBM before it was in your air space?

Didn’t the US navy engage German submarines in international waters before the US went to war?

Like I said, you can only judge what is reasonable. The Israelis are literally fighting for their lives. Nothing they did seems unreasonable.[/quote]

You’re entitled to your opinion,as I am to mine.There’s a fairly uniform interpretation of territorial water boundaries,Israel claims 12 miles,so that’s a moot point.The rest of the analogies have no relevance whatsoever.Have a look at what Israeli newspapers are saying about the incident.

126

Guys, this was a setup to lure Israel. Think about it, if it was just medical aid along with food supply that you wanted to get to people that you deeply care about. Would it not be worth your time to have the ship inspected Israel? Whats so hard about that, really. Israel fell into this trap all to easily.

If the pro-Gaza boats really cared about there mission why not let them on to inspect and why defy them. I support Israel on this. All this looney people who support Gaza are just plain dumb to realize that Israel is protecting its own state. It has enemies on all sides, yet you all buffons want to blame them for everything. They did what they had to do to protect themselves, just like any real Man will do to protect his Wife and Children.
Let me restate that this was done on purpose to make them Jews look bad.

127

if a “real man” goes out in the neighborhood and shoots somebody who is armed with a stick, because he asumes he is a threat, than he would face jailtime.

128

and please: on the ship were members of the german bundestag. do you really think they would be part of “provoke israel suicide mission”?

129

[quote]Mishima wrote:
if a “real man” goes out in the neighborhood and shoots somebody who is armed with a stick, because he asumes he is a threat, than he would face jailtime.[/quote]

if a mob attacks a real man with knifes and metal poles, and he shoots one of them - it’s considered self-defense . . .

130

[quote]Mishima wrote:
if a “real man” goes out in the neighborhood and shoots somebody who is armed with a stick, because he asumes he is a threat, than he would face jailtime.[/quote]

If someone is beating you with a bat, or stabbing you with a knife, you can legally shoot them. You seem unaware that things other than guns can kill.

131

but you know that armed israeli soldiers were capturing the ship. the ship did not shoot a missle on israel or so…

132

[quote]Mishima wrote:
and please: on the ship were members of the german bundestag. do you really think they would be part of “provoke israel suicide mission”?[/quote]

9-10 out of 600 dieing isn’t a suicide mission, idiot.

133

if every nation would react to every small provocation (i am not sure about that but even if so) that way we would have a nuclear showdown within hours.

134

[quote]Mishima wrote:
but you know that armed israeli soldiers were capturing the ship. the ship did not shoot a missle on israel or so… [/quote]

Uh… what? I don’t think that there was much in the way of a thought involved in this post.

135

if an armed man is coming to your house (ship) are you not allowed to defend yourself?

136

[quote]Mishima wrote:
if every nation would react to every small provocation (i am not sure about that but even if so) that way we would have a nuclear showdown within hours. [/quote]

lol… yeah… small provocation. Tiny even.

137

[quote]Mishima wrote:
if an armed man is coming to your house (ship) are you not allowed to defend yourself?[/quote]

lol. Not if I’m driving my house onto the armed mans property. Comparison fail.

138

[quote]Mishima wrote:
but you know that armed israeli soldiers were capturing the ship. the ship did not shoot a missle on israel or so… [/quote]

one more time, since this seems sooooo difficult for you to understand:

Premise of the “flotilla” was to deliver aid to Gaza

Due to the possibility of weapons being smuggled in with aid in violation of the blockade and given that some of the organizations involved with flotilla had been smuggling weapons earlier - the Israeli’s required the ship to dock at Ashdod so that th ecargo could be unloaded and inspected and then delivered to Gaza at Israel expense.

The flotilla refused this simple security request, thus preemptive action was required by Israel

paintball gun armed commando’s boarded the ships (5 very peacefully it should be noted) to direct them to the port at Ashdod

the crowd on 1 ship decided to physically attack the paintball gun armed commandos . . .

what are you missing here?

139

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:

[quote]Mishima wrote:
but you know that armed israeli soldiers were capturing the ship. the ship did not shoot a missle on israel or so… [/quote]

one more time, since this seems sooooo difficult for you to understand:

Premise of the “flotilla” was to deliver aid to Gaza

Due to the possibility of weapons being smuggled in with aid in violation of the blockade and given that some of the organizations involved with flotilla had been smuggling weapons earlier - the Israeli’s required the ship to dock at Ashdod so that th ecargo could be unloaded and inspected and then delivered to Gaza at Israel expense.

The flotilla refused this simple security request, thus preemptive action was required by Israel

paintball gun armed commando’s boarded the ships (5 very peacefully it should be noted) to direct them to the port at Ashdod

the crowd on 1 ship decided to physically attack the paintball gun armed commandos . . .

what are you missing here?[/quote]

in all likely hood. he is either a muslim or leftist. those kinds of people. really don’t understand logic and reason.

140

I haven’t read the whole thread but here’s my view on this.

Before you think of anything else, know that this humanitarian mission was launched in full knowledge of the blockade of Gaza. They knew that they were going to be intercepted and there would be confrontation. They knew Israel would not let allow them to get to Gaza and yet they went anyway.

They were told several times in English to turn the boats around, but they didn’t. They were deliberately provoking Israel and now that shit got real they’re crying about it as if it wasn’t their fault and it was not forseeable.

Commandos boarded the ship and they were greeted with considerable resistence. Even if what they say is true that they were only beating the soldiers with wood (which I don’t believe) then they are incredibly stupid. The soldiers were beaten severely and several were thrown onto lower decks (see video).

Do I completely agree with Israel’s tactics? No, I don’t, I think they could have handled it better and regret the impact this will have on their foreign relations, but I still stand with Israel on this.