To be honest, I had no idea who that gaynor guy was or what he stood for, I just did a quick search to look for something regarding that concept we’re discussing of ‘mis-firing’ (neurons or whatever for the muscle firing ‘sequence’).
My brief response was for a couple reasons…one, I had no idea why you responded the way you did with the whole bit about ‘no one telling me I had to do isolations’…came from left field as far as I could tell in how it related to my previous post at 9:21. I was simply providing my perspective (as it might be relevant to many who share my goals).
And second, your response seemed like it might be another one of those ‘you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, but I won’t tell you why’ mentalities. I checked out that link someone provided earlier about functional exercises…wow, I stayed up an extra hour at night reading it through. Imagine my fear of then getting into a back and forth banter at the level that was shown in that thread.
anyway…thanks a lot for taking the time to respond the way you did. I love reading about this stuff and learning what’s the current thinking in this field. but, at the same time I don’t have the foundation of knowledge in kinesiology or exercise science to really debate this stuff myself. So, I’ll just copy in here what I read from Remedios’ MensHealth Power Training:
"My colleague, Alwyn Cosgrove, once used a great example of this phenomenon when addressing the overuse of the leg extension exercise to isolate the quadriceps muscles. He said that not only are the quadriceps unable to function in this fashion (isolated knee extension) in everyday activity, the isolated training of this muscle group could actually be weakening this muscle when we need to use it in a functional fashion, i.e., running or jumping, by confusing the muscle firing sequence since the quadriceps need to be activated in unison with the glutes and hamstrings to perform these tasks.
The same would go for another overused isolation exercise, the biceps curl. Like the quadriceps, the biceps function along with the shoulder joint in everyday activity, not in isolated elbow flexion."
He goes on to note that of course isolations serve their purposes for bodybuilders as they do not concern themselves much with functionality. I will acknowledge the use of the word ‘overuse’ in the above, however…seems like they wouldn’t necessarily suspect this exercise could be problematic to function if used sparingly.
for me, this stuff is interesting…but, for many, it may be completely irrelevant. I’m looking to train smartly and avoid any pitfalls that could possibly work against my goals.
here’s where I’m coming from: weight lifting or training is a part of my life I am extremely grateful for. It is not a means to an end. I am in no rush to lift the heaviest weight – although I believe in and practice progressive overload – or develop the best body I can achieve. But, at the same time, I don’t want to waste efforts. I do want to enjoy the process. I don’t believe everything I read, but I’ve come to agree with the anti-bodypart mentality when designing weight lifting programs for the genetically average. I believe in a balance of push/pull, etc., etc…
good stuff…anyway, I think the above expresses the concept much better than my original post. thanks again and I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on how it’s expressed this way…(running/jumping)
Ok, no need to get defensive. I never said you don’t belong in this forum, I said that quote from Gaynor has no relevance to this topic. There’s a difference there. I also never said there was “never any overlap between bodybuilding and athletic performance training”. Heck I was the one who posted an incidence where athletes trained with a bodybuilding coach and ended up with the greatest NFL season of all time. I’d say that that’s acknowledging that there is carry over, wouldn’t you?
I don’t have a lot of time at the moment, but sure I’ll try to elaborate on that concept of “mis-firing” a little.
First, muscles do one thing and one thing only, they contract. Muscle’s don’t “fire”, nerves “fire”. Muscles only contract, and they act by pulling bones (joints) closer together. The hamstrings muscle is a biarticulate muscle, meaning that it crosses two joints, the only one of the muscles that make up the hamstrings (there are 3; semimembranosus, semitendinosus, and biceps femoris) that does not cross the hip joint is the short head of the biceps femoris.
This means that the hamstrings muscle both flexes the knee joint and extends the hip joint. These are it’s primary joint actions. Neither is more correct than the other. In fact, while the hamstrings do perform hip extension, so does the gluteus maximus. However, the hamstrings are the only muscle group that performs knee flexion (meaning that suggesting that “training” the muscle to flex the knee is potentially dangerous or a case of “mis-firing” is ridiculous).
In other words, the whole concept of “mis-firing” is a ridiculous concept in and of itself. First, muscles don’t fire, they contract. Second, to suggest that training the muscle to perform one of it’s primary functions against resistance (knee flexion) is wrong or potentially harmful suggests a complete lack of understanding of kinesiology or anatomy.
Listen, I wasn’t trying to be a dick. It just seemed like you hadn’t read any of the replies to the quotes you posted, or you were so convinced that this Gaynor knew what he was talking about that you had just chosen to ignore the responses. But, to be perfectly honest with you, just having read that short quote by Gaynor, I can tell you that he doesn’t know even half of what he’s telling you he knows.
If you want to stick around the forum and continue in the discussion then please do. I wasn’t telling you to leave. But, let’s try to stay on topic and keep this discussion in a bodybuilding context.