Isn't This a High Calorie Breakfast?

[quote]ronaldo7 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
zraw wrote:
If I were you i’d trade a bit of pb for 25g of whey + 6egg white

if you can switch the bagel for oat thats even better.


you guys dont separate carbs from fats ?

your not being serious about the fat+carbs meals right?

If I want to stay lean, then I avoid C+F combinations. Bulking, not so much.

BBB

yes but why exactly?. If you are eating bellow maintenance then it doesn’t even matter. I mean if you are eating pizza which has high sat fat and high amounts of white flour I could understand. but having nuts and an apple or peanut butter with oats while eating bellow maintenance will get you lean I believe.

The whole F+C meals criteria is a bit over-rated I think. The only reason why one should follow it in my opinion would be because some people tent to go overboard on the calories when eating F+C meals.
[/quote]

Even if you’re bulking, avoiding C+F meals helps you minimize the fat gains…and stay fairly lean…

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
zraw wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
zraw wrote:

Even if you’re bulking, avoiding C+F meals helps you minimize the fat gains…and stay fairly lean…

For a natural trainee, maybe. For an assisted trainee, you can (and do) eat as many caliries as you want really and don’t put on the fat. For example, I struggle to put on weight, even adding lots of oils and powdered oats into the same shake, PLUS adding whipping cream to chocolate milk twice per day. In fact, I need to drink another chocolate milk with cream now (11pm) plus have some whey, casein and oil before bed, just to try and get some growth.

BBB[/quote]

Yeah I do believe things wouldnt be the same with gear. But I’m pretty sure a lot of people here are natural

[quote]zraw wrote:
Yeah I do believe things wouldnt be the same with gear. But I’m pretty sure a lot of people here are natural[/quote]

On that note, BBB;

I can’t wait to use gear.

I mean, I’m going to put at least 5+ more years into it, but damn.

Test sounds awesome.

:{
…wish I was older…

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
ronaldo7 wrote:
zraw wrote:
If I were you i’d trade a bit of pb for 25g of whey + 6egg white

if you can switch the bagel for oat thats even better.


you guys dont separate carbs from fats ?

your not being serious about the fat+carbs meals right?

If I want to stay lean, then I avoid C+F combinations. Bulking, not so much.

BBB

yes but why exactly?. If you are eating bellow maintenance then it doesn’t even matter. I mean if you are eating pizza which has high sat fat and high amounts of white flour I could understand. but having nuts and an apple or peanut butter with oats while eating bellow maintenance will get you lean I believe.

The whole F+C meals criteria is a bit over-rated I think. The only reason why one should follow it in my opinion would be because some people tent to go overboard on the calories when eating F+C meals.

Ah, but I didn’t say anything about ‘below maintainance’. If I want to stay lean, without giving it too much thought and effort, I can do so, merely by avoiding F+C meals.

BBB[/quote]

But do you agree that in the end it comes down to calories?. I don’t understand how mixing good fats and good carbs together could hurt anyones physique even when “bulking” let alone when you are eating to lose fat.

ronaldo, the reason why you don’t understand it is because there is nothing to understand. C+F meals aren’t inherently more fattening then any other meal combination. PB&J sandwiches ftw!

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
ronaldo, the reason why you don’t understand it is because there is nothing to understand. C+F meals aren’t inherently more fattening then any other meal combination. PB&J sandwiches ftw![/quote]

haha or better… 1 bagel with alot of honey, lots natural peanut butter, sliced banana all between the bagel and a big glass of whole milk…that my friend is sexy but a physique killer for sure

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Brant_Drake wrote:
zraw wrote:
Yeah I do believe things wouldnt be the same with gear. But I’m pretty sure a lot of people here are natural

On that note, BBB;

I can’t wait to use gear.

I mean, I’m going to put at least 5+ more years into it, but damn.

Test sounds awesome.

Test IS awesome. After all, it is the quintessential male essence.

BBB[/quote]

Hey BBB:

What does a typical day of eating look like when on gear and gaining mass?

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
ronaldo, the reason why you don’t understand it is because there is nothing to understand. C+F meals aren’t inherently more fattening then any other meal combination. PB&J sandwiches ftw![/quote]

lol…

"Let’s start with some meal combinations to avoid.

Avoid meals containing fats and carbs

Unfortunately, this is the typical meal of the Western diet. As a result, it’s no wonder that obesity is an epidemic. Meals with a high carbohydrate content in combination with high-fat meals can actually promote a synergistic insulin release when compared to the two alone. High fat with high-carb meals represent the worst possible case scenario.

Now, some people have argued that fat lowers the glycemic index of foods and should therefore be included in carb meals. But remember, the glycemic index only gives a measure of glucose response to a meal, not insulin response. And sometimes the glucose responses to a meal and the insulin responses to a meal aren’t well correlated. So although you might be slowing the rate of glucose absorption into the blood by adding fat to your meals, you’ll promote high blood levels of fats, carbs, and insulin. And that’s a no-no!"

John Berardi

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//massive_eating_part_2

[quote]zraw wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
ronaldo, the reason why you don’t understand it is because there is nothing to understand. C+F meals aren’t inherently more fattening then any other meal combination. PB&J sandwiches ftw!

lol…

"Let’s start with some meal combinations to avoid.

Avoid meals containing fats and carbs

Unfortunately, this is the typical meal of the Western diet. As a result, it’s no wonder that obesity is an epidemic. Meals with a high carbohydrate content in combination with high-fat meals can actually promote a synergistic insulin release when compared to the two alone. High fat with high-carb meals represent the worst possible case scenario.

Now, some people have argued that fat lowers the glycemic index of foods and should therefore be included in carb meals. But remember, the glycemic index only gives a measure of glucose response to a meal, not insulin response. And sometimes the glucose responses to a meal and the insulin responses to a meal aren’t well correlated. So although you might be slowing the rate of glucose absorption into the blood by adding fat to your meals, you’ll promote high blood levels of fats, carbs, and insulin. And that’s a no-no!"

John Berardi

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//massive_eating_part_2

[/quote]

Do you realize most of JB’s recipes from gourmet nutrition mix carbs and fats. I think it makes a big difference when you are talking about “clean” and “dirty” sources. I don’t think adding some nuts and peanut butter to your oatmeal will hurt your body composition weather you are losing fat or gaining muscle.

believe it or not ronaldo, it doesn’t matter how “clean” or “dirty” the food/meal is. calories in/calories out still rules.

So it doesn’t matter whether you make your sandwich on 100% stone ground, organic sprouted grain bread, with organic natural cashew butter and no-sugar added 100% real fruit spread; or whether you make it using JIF peanut butter, Smuckers jelly and wonder bread.

as long as both sandwiches are of equal caloric value and similar macronutient (P/C/F) profiles, the effect on your body composition will be the same.

That being said, it is still a good idea to eat mostly (say, 80%) whole, unprocessed foods, as they are often higher in vitamins, minerals and other good stuff.

Also, Berardi has moved away from the PC/PF ideas since then. Look at his last rendition of the rules for healthy eating;

[quote]1) Eat every 2 to 4 hours

  1. Eat lean, complete protein with each feeding

  2. Eat fruits and/or veggies with each feeding, for a total of around 10 servings per day

  3. Based on your body type and goals, use appropriate carbohydrate timing

  4. Eat a healthy balance of fats, about one-third of each type (saturates, monos, and polys)

  5. Ditch most calorie-containing drinks like soda and fruit juices

  6. Focus on whole, unprocessed foods first

  7. Eat whatever else you want 10 percent of the time

  8. In most cases, prepare/pack your food in advance

  9. Incorporate lots of variety; don’t fall into a food rut[/quote]

No PC/PF mention anymore.

Wow guys, there are what appears to be several thread topics in one here.

And I actaully think some great and relevant points have been raised which should lead to some great discussion.

The kcal debate is a difficult one. 300 makes some very good points as do many other posters in the thread too. And for reasons I hope to explain, I believe all view points are valid.

I think many of the problems we have observed over the years concerning diets and dieting are based on a a couple of differing view points concerning nutrients, in my opinion.

Firstly, the assumption that nutrients serve to provide energy, hence the whole low kcal diet phenomenon and the kcal is kcal debate(s), we know is probably incorrect - although nutrients do provide energy.

The second view point is that nutrients serve functions, and that by manipulating our nutrient intake, whether it be by reducing or eliminating them, combining nutrients or cycling them, we can manipulate our response to ingesting them and favourably alter our bodycomposition as a result.

Personally, I fall somewhere between the two groups. We have to remember that fundamentally foods serve functions, however, we must also be aware that they have energetic value too, and that through careful manipulation of both energy intake and nutrient effect(s), we can achieve our goals to good effect.

In the case of muscle gain, providing adequate nutrients to ensure sufficient recovery and supercompensation from training requires an energy surplus, with adequate macro and micronutrients too. In the case of fat loss, we need to ensure an energy deficit, with sufficient nutrients to ensure adequate recovery and minimisation of muscle and performance loss.

The Kcalorie provides an estimate of energetic value yes, but it is indeed very flawed. However counting kcalories does provide an estimate of the amount of energy we consume.

But really when we think about whether we choose to manipulate gram amounts of certain nutrients, macronutrient ratios, kcalorie counting, or food combining, we really are manipulating the amount of ‘energetic’ value of the foods we eat. Many different journeys to ultimately the same destination, each with their own peculiarities and methods.

John Berardi bases his carbohydrate consumption guidelines on the view point that we better utilise and store them in the hours surrounding exercise, from the nutrient timing research in the academic literature.

The protein and carb and protein and fat debate is interesting. I can see logic to the argument that the synergistic consumption of carbohydrates and fat may increase fat storage.

However, we have to remember that, save for the hours immediately upon waking, we rarely are in a true fasted state, particularly if we are eating every 2 - 3 hours. So, if we are in a post absorptive state, then we will likely still be digesting and absorbing some foodstuffs prior to the onset of eating another.

Meaning that you could still be absorbing some fat at the time that you ingest a carbohydrate. If we look at many of the foods we eat, often they contain a mixture of all the macronutrients. The human digestive system is fairly capable at digesting and absorbing foods - if we look after it well!

Some great topics here guys.