Islam Needs to Prove It's a Religion of Peace

lixy · March 10, 2009, 3:21pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Sit down and shut the hell up white Christians inheritors of the original sin (black slavery). [/quote]

What’s this got to do with race?

Then I suggest you stop referring to “Islam”.

When you’re trying to incite hatred towards other groups and pass them off as savages, is it absurd to point out to your not-so-clean hands?

And Mohammed too.

It’s not about the teddy bear. Sudan became independent from the UK 50 years ago. Today, the Brits (among others) are trying to indict the head of state of the country. It is outrageous for the Sudanese, especially considering that Bush or Blair (with a lot more blood on their hands) are safe.

That a poor teacher gets caught in the middle of this mess, is NOT Islam’s fault as you’re trying to argue.

And let’s all blame Islam for it! Then put Muslims in concentration camps, or directly bomb their asses.

[quote]Edit: One last thing. Someone needs to take the infamous pic of the kneeling woman covered from head to toe, being shot in the head in a soccer stadium for whatever slight she brought upon muslim males, and make one of those popular internet posters with the white lettering at the bottom.

It could read “I know, man. But, shhh. The inquisition, dude. The inquisition.” It doesn’t have to be the inquisition. One could use whatever white, or Christian wrong, they can pluck from history.[/quote]

I prefer the caption “Freedom Fighters: Brought to power courtesy of US taxpayers”.

Gkhan · March 10, 2009, 1:10pm

[quote]lixy wrote:
Most Muslims will shit on this guy, like they shit on the Sauds, the Alaouites, Al-Qaeda and anyone who claims to interpret the words of God for them.

As for this guy’s fellowship, the “Institute” seems to be one of those think-tanks which are exclusively looking out for American interests. That puts them at a heavy bias. From their “about us” page:

[/quote]

Do they shit on you as well. You seem to have your own interpretation of Islam…

And, you denounce this guy because he is looking out for American interests? That alone makes you want to condemn his message?

Interesting to say the least.

edit- where do you see this guy is looking out for American interests?

Sloth · March 10, 2009, 1:13pm

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Sit down and shut the hell up white Christians inheritors of the original sin (black slavery).

What’s this got to do with race?

Let’s see. We’re talking about Islamism today,

Then I suggest you stop referring to “Islam”.

and we go off into indulgences, in a volutary association with the Catholic Chuch…Not to forget, inherited white sin. Inherited guilt for Christians (though I’d imagine there were some Deists, agnostics, and even outright atheists who had no problem running the Indian off of their land, setting up their homestead in it’s place.)

When you’re trying to incite hatred towards other groups and pass them off as savages, is it absurd to point out to your not-so-clean hands?

Today South Park can lampoon Christ regularly,

And Mohammed too.

But, name a teddy bear after the Prophet, and look out folks!

It’s not about the teddy bear. Sudan became independent from the UK 50 years ago. Today, the Brits (among others) are trying to indict the head of state of the country. It is outrageous for the Sudanese, especially considering that Bush or Blair (with a lot more blood on their hands) are safe.

That a poor teacher gets caught in the middle of this mess, is NOT Islam’s fault as you’re trying to argue.

Which is troubling. After all, women and religious minorities don’t have much of voice in the Islamic world.

And let’s all blame Islam for it! Then put Muslims in concentration camps, or directly bomb their asses.

Edit: One last thing. Someone needs to take the infamous pic of the kneeling woman covered from head to toe, being shot in the head in a soccer stadium for whatever slight she brought upon muslim males, and make one of those popular internet posters with the white lettering at the bottom.

It could read “I know, man. But, shhh. The inquisition, dude. The inquisition.” It doesn’t have to be the inquisition. One could use whatever white, or Christian wrong, they can pluck from history.

I prefer the caption “Freedom Fighters: Brought to power courtesy of US taxpayers”.[/quote]

Tell us all about those sluts that play with fire and get themselves burned (hanged). You’re no longer even worth a reply.

pat · March 10, 2009, 9:50am

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

[/quote]

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close.

Yes, I will bring it up every fucking time atheists claim the upper hand on morality and reason. As a matter of fact can you find even one example of a place ruled by an atheist that wasn’t completely corrupt and evil? I can’t.

I tend to think atheists are fools. If all you trust is you weenie little five senses and your limited ability to think and reason, then you have to be nothing but narrow minded. There is more to sense, then you can sense and there is more to know then you can know. Just because God does dress up a like an idiot and dance to your whims does not mean He does not exist.

At the very least, if you cannot find suitable evidence, agnosticism would be the only reasonable thing to be. Atheism means you have to know it all to be sure. You don’t and no one does.

pat · March 10, 2009, 1:56pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
They keep drawing me back in. And a touch of insomnia doesn’t help.

Where in the world is this “my god is better” coming from? Did I propose a conquer and forcible conversion of the Islamic world? Or, well, a reformation. Further, in what way, shape, or form, have I based my arguements on Christian theology?

In what way does speaking up for any and all shades of apostates, religious (and non-religious) minorities, oppresed and brutalized women, have to do with “my god is better than your god?” Where in the world is this coming from? Seriously?

I didn’t answer your points because, well, what the heck do indulgences and American slavery have to do with this? Sorry, but the “your great grandpappy did bad things” card is just about worn out. Not only is it’s effectiveness wearing thin in stifling debate about issues in the present, it’s counterproductive in the face of supremacism in the here and now.[/quote]

We call those, “Red Herrings” and “Strawmen”. Can’t knock you argument so they make up what you are saying as if to read your mind and then knock down the fake argument. Oldest and most transparent trick in the book.

Sloth · March 10, 2009, 2:31pm

[quote]pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close. Yes, I will bring it up every fucking time atheists claim the upper hand on morality and reason. As a matter of fact can you find even one example of a place ruled by an atheist that wasn’t completely corrupt and evil? I can’t.

I tend to think atheists are fools. If all you trust is you weenie little five senses and your limited ability to think and reason, then you have to be nothing but narrow minded. There is more to sense, then you can sense and there is more to know then you can know. Just because God does dress up a like an idiot and dance to your whims does not mean He does not exist.
At the very least, if you cannot find suitable evidence, agnosticism would be the only reasonable thing to be. Atheism means you have to know it all to be sure. You don’t and no one does.[/quote]

Don’t let them drag you into this kind of debate. It’s nothing more than a distraction from the tangible issue in front of us. Make them deal with the present. Don’t let them drag you into a back and forth about who do what to however many throughout history. And, don’t let them drag you into a discussion about how stupid it is or isn’t to be religious in general. It’s nothing more than a diversion, a stalling tactic, thrown up to lose the original topic in page after page of offtopic discussion.

anon31651765 · March 10, 2009, 2:42pm

[quote]JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
JamFly wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, two soldiers killed in Antrim by the REAL IRA.

Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony.

No doubt.

What does the IRA have to do with religion? It’s a political issue dipshit.

Yes, you fucking douche, it is. A political issue with deep ties to the root problem, which is the Protestant and Catholic divide. Without the religion issue, there’s no political issue. Got it cock?

So the IRA are motivated to kill Protestants because their religion says so? I wonder why there are not more Catholics all over the world killing Protestants because God told them to? Did you know one of the soldiers killed was Catholic???

Hillarious - people like you are the reason the US receives such negative sterotypes.

[/quote]

You completely ignored what I said and made up your own shit. You must be the reason everyone thinks that Scots are drunks.

anon31651765 · March 10, 2009, 2:46pm

[quote]pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close.

Yes, I will bring it up every fucking time atheists claim the upper hand on morality and reason. As a matter of fact can you find even one example of a place ruled by an atheist that wasn’t completely corrupt and evil? I can’t.
[/quote]

I am not the one calling one specific religion inherently violent. I’ve never said that atheists were more or less violent, I just said that one religion pointing the finger at another religion for being violent and causing death is kind of ridiculous when you look back at the history of all religions, all of which have been used at one point in justification for war.

[quote]
I tend to think atheists are fools. If all you trust is you weenie little five senses and your limited ability to think and reason, then you have to be nothing but narrow minded. There is more to sense, then you can sense and there is more to know then you can know. Just because God does dress up a like an idiot and dance to your whims does not mean He does not exist.

At the very least, if you cannot find suitable evidence, agnosticism would be the only reasonable thing to be. Atheism means you have to know it all to be sure. You don’t and no one does.[/quote]

You don’t like reading posts either huh? You just hit that respond button like you’ve got tourette’s and roll with it.

I’ve never said I was an atheist. I really have no idea if God exists. I hope he does, but I never claim to know. At least address what’s in my post next time.

pat · March 10, 2009, 3:30pm

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close.

Yes, I will bring it up every fucking time atheists claim the upper hand on morality and reason. As a matter of fact can you find even one example of a place ruled by an atheist that wasn’t completely corrupt and evil? I can’t.

I am not the one calling one specific religion inherently violent. I’ve never said that atheists were more or less violent, I just said that one religion pointing the finger at another religion for being violent and causing death is kind of ridiculous when you look back at the history of all religions, all of which have been used at one point in justification for war.

I tend to think atheists are fools. If all you trust is you weenie little five senses and your limited ability to think and reason, then you have to be nothing but narrow minded. There is more to sense, then you can sense and there is more to know then you can know. Just because God does dress up a like an idiot and dance to your whims does not mean He does not exist.

At the very least, if you cannot find suitable evidence, agnosticism would be the only reasonable thing to be. Atheism means you have to know it all to be sure. You don’t and no one does.

You don’t like reading posts either huh? You just hit that respond button like you’ve got tourette’s and roll with it.

I’ve never said I was an atheist. I really have no idea if God exists. I hope he does, but I never claim to know. At least address what’s in my post next time.
[/quote]

I’ll admit I got stuck on the one statement. I get sick of hearing it because it’s not true. Historical fact will bear out that the vast majority of wrongs committed by Christians were not done for the pure whole sale slaughter of non-believers. This does not make wrongs anymore right. But put yourself in the context of that time and what would you do if you were in a position of leadership. For instance, the First Crusade was launched to free the Anatolia from the Turks, which in turn turned into kicking the Muslims out of Jerusalem presumably to free the eastern Christians from persecution. Christianity and politics were intertwined at the time so to call on the church was a call on the stated and vice versa. That is why we have separation of church and state now. It was observed by our wise forefathers that involving church in matters of state is a bad thing not a good thing as was thought in the good ol’ days.

Or another example people like to use is the Spanish Inquisition was originally approved by the pope, but was owned and operated by the Spanish Royal government. The pope was wrong to support it in anyway shape or form. The original doctrines were matters of spirituality, not for the physical torture and death of non-believing people. Pope Sixtus complaied about the abuses, but could do nothing to stop them Ferdinand had him by the balls. The Spanish just ran with it as they were fresh coming off of a prolonged war with the Moors in Iberia. Again, this was not a religious persecution of non-believers for the hell of it, Ferdinand and Isabel were paranoid and you will believe as they do, leave or die.
The biggest problem is people have a thin grasp on history. They will take small snippets of it out of context just to justify their own beliefs. But this puts their beliefs on shaky ground. But what ever make you happy, just don’t attack me or my beliefs because I think differently, or I will fight back. I am not Amish.

My diatribe on atheists still stands even if it does not apply to you as several have spoken up and spoke disparagingly and incorrectly about religion and faith in general.

shookers · March 10, 2009, 3:34pm

This isn’t about religion. It’s about ideology. That is how the debate MUST be framed in order to start winning

anon31651765 · March 10, 2009, 7:27pm

[quote]pat wrote:

I’ll admit I got stuck on the one statement. I get sick of hearing it because it’s not true. Historical fact will bear out that the vast majority of wrongs committed by Christians were not done for the pure whole sale slaughter of non-believers. This does not make wrongs anymore right. But put yourself in the context of that time and what would you do if you were in a position of leadership. For instance, the First Crusade was launched to free the Anatolia from the Turks, which in turn turned into kicking the Muslims out of Jerusalem presumably to free the eastern Christians from persecution. Christianity and politics were intertwined at the time so to call on the church was a call on the stated and vice versa. That is why we have separation of church and state now. It was observed by our wise forefathers that involving church in matters of state is a bad thing not a good thing as was thought in the good ol’ days.

Or another example people like to use is the Spanish Inquisition was originally approved by the pope, but was owned and operated by the Spanish Royal government. The pope was wrong to support it in anyway shape or form. The original doctrines were matters of spirituality, not for the physical torture and death of non-believing people. Pope Sixtus complaied about the abuses, but could do nothing to stop them Ferdinand had him by the balls. The Spanish just ran with it as they were fresh coming off of a prolonged war with the Moors in Iberia. Again, this was not a religious persecution of non-believers for the hell of it, Ferdinand and Isabel were paranoid and you will believe as they do, leave or die.
The biggest problem is people have a thin grasp on history. They will take small snippets of it out of context just to justify their own beliefs. But this puts their beliefs on shaky ground. But what ever make you happy, just don’t attack me or my beliefs because I think differently, or I will fight back. I am not Amish.
[/quote]

I’m not disagreeing. But a more prominent and more recent example could be the bombing of abortion clinics by fundamentalists.

Again, like I said, every religion has been used to justify war, and too often the leaders of said religion are fine with it. This is not exclusively a Muslim trait, nor is it exclusively a Catholic trait.

If it was, America would be tearing itself apart at the seams because we have so many different people of so many different religions often living next door to each other. Alas, that does not happen. The American Experiment has proven that it’s not a specific religion that is evil or wrong- more that when religion is left out of things, it won’t cause a problem.

However, like I said about the Middle Eastern Arabs folding the cause of anti-Americanism/Zionism together with Islam… well, that’s when the problems arise.

[quote]
My diatribe on atheists still stands even if it does not apply to you as several have spoken up and spoke disparagingly and incorrectly about religion and faith in general. [/quote]

I understand that. As I’ve said, I have no problem with believing in God or practicing a religion, even though I do make fun of it. What I have a problem with is hypocrisy, especially when people are using religion to get into Us vs. Them type wars over who’s god is better. You’d think that after thousands of years of having religion, we’d learn that you just can’t fight over this garbage.

anon31651765 · March 10, 2009, 7:29pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Don’t let them drag you into this kind of debate. It’s nothing more than a distraction from the tangible issue in front of us. Make them deal with the present. Don’t let them drag you into a back and forth about who do what to however many throughout history. And, don’t let them drag you into a discussion about how stupid it is or isn’t to be religious in general. It’s nothing more than a diversion, a stalling tactic, thrown up to lose the original topic in page after page of offtopic discussion.[/quote]

I am dealing with the present. History replicates itself over and over, and wars of religion have been going on over everyone’s God for who knows how long.

Ignoring history is not the way to understand the present.

pat · March 10, 2009, 9:04pm

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:

I’ll admit I got stuck on the one statement. I get sick of hearing it because it’s not true. Historical fact will bear out that the vast majority of wrongs committed by Christians were not done for the pure whole sale slaughter of non-believers. This does not make wrongs anymore right. But put yourself in the context of that time and what would you do if you were in a position of leadership. For instance, the First Crusade was launched to free the Anatolia from the Turks, which in turn turned into kicking the Muslims out of Jerusalem presumably to free the eastern Christians from persecution. Christianity and politics were intertwined at the time so to call on the church was a call on the stated and vice versa. That is why we have separation of church and state now. It was observed by our wise forefathers that involving church in matters of state is a bad thing not a good thing as was thought in the good ol’ days.

Or another example people like to use is the Spanish Inquisition was originally approved by the pope, but was owned and operated by the Spanish Royal government. The pope was wrong to support it in anyway shape or form. The original doctrines were matters of spirituality, not for the physical torture and death of non-believing people. Pope Sixtus complaied about the abuses, but could do nothing to stop them Ferdinand had him by the balls. The Spanish just ran with it as they were fresh coming off of a prolonged war with the Moors in Iberia. Again, this was not a religious persecution of non-believers for the hell of it, Ferdinand and Isabel were paranoid and you will believe as they do, leave or die.
The biggest problem is people have a thin grasp on history. They will take small snippets of it out of context just to justify their own beliefs. But this puts their beliefs on shaky ground. But what ever make you happy, just don’t attack me or my beliefs because I think differently, or I will fight back. I am not Amish.

I’m not disagreeing. But a more prominent and more recent example could be the bombing of abortion clinics by fundamentalists.
[/quote]

Only one guy did that to my knowledge and he was acting on his own. It certainly was not sanctioned by any church, actually it was condemned by most churches.

I would rather argue that many wars used religion to justify itself. Not the other way around. Or a skirmish with religious connotations ran amok and took on a life of it’s own.

[quote]
If it was, America would be tearing itself apart at the seams because we have so many different people of so many different religions often living next door to each other. Alas, that does not happen. The American Experiment has proven that it’s not a specific religion that is evil or wrong- more that when religion is left out of things, it won’t cause a problem.

However, like I said about the Middle Eastern Arabs folding the cause of anti-Americanism/Zionism together with Islam… well, that’s when the problems arise.

My diatribe on atheists still stands even if it does not apply to you as several have spoken up and spoke disparagingly and incorrectly about religion and faith in general.

I understand that. As I’ve said, I have no problem with believing in God or practicing a religion, even though I do make fun of it. What I have a problem with is hypocrisy, especially when people are using religion to get into Us vs. Them type wars over who’s god is better. You’d think that after thousands of years of having religion, we’d learn that you just can’t fight over this garbage.[/quote]

Fair enough, just be accurate when pointing out hypocrisy. Somethings are not what people say they are or the events are taken out of context. But yes, call out hypocrisy when you see it as long as the fact are correct.

Cockney_Blue · March 10, 2009, 9:07pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
By the way, two soldiers killed in Antrim by the REAL IRA.

Another two chalked up for Christianity, the religion of peace, love, and harmony.

No doubt.

And where’s the Christian defense? I don’t see it in your article. You won’t see me making any excuses for them. I won’t craft arguements about how poverty, economic, or national issues made them victims, who had no other option but terrorism. I’m not a bed wetting liberal, no matter what label the person is sporting.

You have no problem chalking this up to Christianity, so why take issue with us pointing out WIDESPREAD brutality and supremacism praticed in the Islamic world. I wouldn’t be so proud to take a stand for Islam. You might look down and notice you’re standing on the corpses and broken bodies of it’s very recent victims.

It’s time for the Islamic world to reform. Suprisingly, it’s the non-believer that wants to sabotage a united front calling for, demanding, this reformation. At least, it seems to be the case in this forum. It’s pretty sad that the author, a reformed Islamic terrorist has been basically dismissed.

Look I’ve been caught up in Christian bombings in London and Manchester on several occasions and I’ve been caught up in Islamic bombings in London on one occasion. Neither set of people makes me in a hurry to sign up for their peaceful religion.

Maybe as an American you haven’t seen first hand the sectarian hatred that goes on within Christianity but I have.

Gee, where I was trying to recruit and convert anyone here? Ok, we suck. Now, with that out of the way, will our pure as the wind driven snow atheist brethern join us in condemning the widespread abuses in the Islamic world? Instead of muddying up calls for widespread reform with atheistic evangelization? [/quote]

Dude, where have I ever not condemed them? I have said that they base their religions on the badly written ramblings of a mad man. Stoning people is wrong. Subjugating women is wrong. Teaching religion in place of real education is wrong. Inciting hatred is wrong.

Cockney_Blue · March 10, 2009, 5:13pm

[quote]pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

They’re all fucking ridiculous. There are probably more deaths committed in the name of Christianity than those in any others.

Not this stupid shit again…Do you forget your prominent athiest pals like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, etc. No one, by a large margin has killed more people that athiests…I mean it’s not even close.

Yes, I will bring it up every fucking time atheists claim the upper hand on morality and reason. As a matter of fact can you find even one example of a place ruled by an atheist that wasn’t completely corrupt and evil? I can’t.

I tend to think atheists are fools. If all you trust is you weenie little five senses and your limited ability to think and reason, then you have to be nothing but narrow minded. There is more to sense, then you can sense and there is more to know then you can know. Just because God does dress up a like an idiot and dance to your whims does not mean He does not exist.

At the very least, if you cannot find suitable evidence, agnosticism would be the only reasonable thing to be. Atheism means you have to know it all to be sure. You don’t and no one does.[/quote]

Every one of those was brought up in a religious household. Maybe that is the problem as we have seen that both Atheists and Religious folks brought up in religious households have been responsible for atrocities. What is the common denominator?

Cockney_Blue · March 10, 2009, 9:20pm

[quote]pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
pat wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote: