Is Training the LEAST Important Part Of Bodybuilding?

Training Bodybuilding
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This is something I was thinking about on my way into work this morning, and I thought it’d be a great conversation bomb.

At the professional level, is training the least important variable in bodybuilding?

I am definitely willing to entertain the idea that genetics are the MOST important part of the equation. Genetics would relate to the physical structure of the bodybuilder, insertions, muscle belly lengths, etc, but ALSO how the trainees respond to the drugs at that level. There are some dudes who, no matter how hard they try, just didn’t pick the right parents to be able to be at the top. We’ve seen professionals that have just been hamstrung with poor genetics, to say nothing of all the folks that get weeded out at the local level for the same reasons.

From there, I would feel like nutrition, and, specifically, COMPLIANCE with nutrition, ranks in second. Mainly because everyone is using all the same drugs at this point, and the dudes with the right genetics to respond to those drugs are going to have the longevity to stay around long enough to maximize their potential, but if dudes can’t stick with the diet, they’re just not going to show up right on show day, no matter what drugs they’re running. I don’t feel like bodybuilding nutrition is complicated, but the ability to comply with it most likely plays a significant role.

Drugs are in an interesting spot here, because since everyone is using them it’s like NO ONE is using them: they’re all on an equal playing field. So they’re important and not at the same time.

But that brings me to the training. Have we ever observed a high level professional bodybuilder that never reached their max potential because they were training too wrong? And not in the sense that they had poor fatigue management, got too injured to hang around or tore a muscle and junked up their physique: I’m talking about the idea of “So and So would have been a champion if he ONLY learned how to turn his toes out on the leg press and REALLY bring out his outer quad sweep!” Or “Dude woulda been an Olympia Champion if ONLY he rotated his pinkies on his lateral raises and FINALLY capped his side delts”

I’m starting to wonder if the only real purpose of bodybuilding training is to find the razor’s edge between stimulus and recovery in order to train as little as necessary to achieve maximal muscular development WITHOUT overtaxing the body and getting injured, but that the nuance of the training itself becomes immaterial in the presence of genetics.

Did anyone actually TRAIN their way from middle of the pack to top tier bodybuilder, or was it simply a matter of spending enough time to realize their potential? About the only example I can think of is Arnold bringing up his calves, but that was a case of simply NEGLECTING a muscle and finally training it to make it grow. Have all other training innovations simply been in the realm of fatigue management to extend longevity?

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From what I’ve observed through the years, most IFBB pros trained very similarly, with bro splits and a combination of compound and isolation exercises. So I think all you said is correct.

And yes, the nutrition is about compliance with a plan, but some plans have been straight-up dumb, and I think some people could have placed better, and thereby receiving pro cards, had their plans not been dumb.

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I’d love for you to elaborate if, for nothing else, a delightful discussion on dumb bodybuilding nutrition plans. I’ve seen some WILD ones out there.

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Did anyone actually TRAIN their way from middle of the pack to top tier bodybuilder, or was it simply a matter of spending enough time to realize their potential?

I feel like this is kind of an unanswerable question. It’s nearly impossible to distinguish training from drugs when genetics stay the same and dosages are obfuscated but Nick Walker made some wild progress over the last 5 years.

Have we ever observed a high level professional bodybuilder that never reached their max potential because they were training too wrong?

I am willing to bet a few pros would say they probably didn’t do things quite right and that many would say they never reached “max potential” but wouldn’t be surprised to see injuries as the primary reason to not get to the max.

In any case, being at a gym with a bunch of (IFBB) pros is a fascinating experience. Absolute monsters who are in there most of the time I go and are in there before I get there and stay after I leave (granted my sessions are usually <60 min). I haven’t seen a single one of the truly big ones barbell squat, row, deadlift or bench in the multiple months I’ve been there.

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That’s actually what I’m asking: did his physique transform, or did it simply get bigger? And I’m not being rhetorical in that question: I genuinely don’t know. I don’t follow the sport. Did we see him overcome a limitation he was previously experiencing in his physique, or did he just explode? The latter makes it seem like it was simply a matter of time to get there.

Yeah, this is striking at what I’m thinking: it’s a matter of just finding the way to generate the stimulus and NOT go too far into the realm of fatigue to cause issues.

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I know I’m not @BrickHead, but one the competitors that I worked with was putting Splenda on her salads “for flavor” because her coach recommended it. There is a lot of crazy $h!t and misinformation out there, no doubt.

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I’m honestly thinking I’ve made the wrong topic and would love to make one that is just about this, haha. I have heard some wild stories about things done by BBers in prep trying to survive.

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I love the topic, but I feel like (not to criticize) the question itself is a little oxymoronic:
Does training matter for bodybuilding if we ignore training mistakes that leave you underrecovered/ injured?

I would say, no, turning your toes out on the leg press doesn’t matter.

But yes, you get into huge difference makers in terms of exercise selection, order, volume, intensity, etc. that allow you to train at a high enough level for long enough to max your potential.

So, yes training matters… but more for tomorrow than for today.

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That’s what I want to get at though: is the only thing that matters in the training to not get injured, so that you can reach your max potential? If so, it leads me to believe that the training IS the least important thing: it’s just about genetics. As long as you can manage stimulus and fatigue, it doesn’t matter HOW you train.

I’m curious if all the time/energy spent on the minutia really matters. Have we seen anyone that was able to overcome a physique weakness through training? Not a lack of size in general, but a specific weakness in the physique itself that required training in order to overcome it.

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Gotcha! I would personally yes (within the range of some logic - like a program of pushups and sprints is probably inappropriate for the goal).

I also don’t have the experience of a @RT_Nomad or @BrickHead. I’m curious your gents’ thoughts specifically on:

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The most common problem I’ve heard about or people relay to me is being far too restrictive from the start of a diet, as if one can perform desirably (there is always going to be some drop off) for three to five months on what is pretty much a protein-sparing modified fast or close to it.

A second is not giving enough time for the amount of fat that needs to be lost.

A third is what I think are unnecessary water and salt restrictions. I’m not some seasoned vet (I only did one show), nor have I taken steroids in any amount other than real TRT (100 mg per week or 10 g of gel per day). So I do not know if such restrictions are necessary in heavy drug users. But Stu did not have me restricting either and I came out with see-through skin. I salted most of my foods, as usual, and drank how much I wanted to.

A fourth is bad carb-ups and unnecessary refeeds.

A fifth is similar to the first problem: dumping on loads of cardio from the beginning rather than gradually increasing it as needed.

There’s one very well-known coach who worked with a friend of mine–and I am talking about one of the first well-known IFBB contest-prep coaches–who did something like make nutrition and cardio adjustments based on how people looked by the day. How is it even possible to see such changes day to day? And what kind of adjustments can one make from them even if they are noticed?

Something to keep in mind is that, like non-bodybuilders, some bodybuilders are just scatterbrained and I believe cannot follow a plan, bodybuilding or otherwise. This same friend of mine broke off services from another coach, and although I don’t know details, I believe it’s because he drove the guy nuts with challenges and questions (“What about this drug? What about this thing some other guy is doing?”) until the plans fell apart.

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Thanks. See post above I likely posted while you were typing. As I’ve said, I only did it once, but know some people who have competed much more. A family friend of mine, now 61 years old, did 70 shows throughout his life. :slight_smile:

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Something has changed the overall look of bodybuilders over the past 30+ years, whether it be training, drugs, or both, I’m not sure.

I think it’s an important variable but the differences show that so many approaches work. Jay Cutler and Ronnie for example, these guys trained so differently at least based on the videos available to us. Both had insane results.

In another sense though I think at a high level, training insanely hard is the barrier to entry, but there’s only so much to improve on when you’re already at 99% intensity. Training hard is so automatic that the other variables start to take over importance.

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I am going to give you a non-answer.

Resistance training is the very most important part of bodybuilding.
The actual resistance training program is the least important part of bodybuilding.

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Crazy diets extremes would be interesting.

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What has changed is the judging. As it evolves the physiques evolve to match what is expected from the judges.
At one point they just wanted as big as possible. That created the bubble gut. Once they started get penalized for gut distention they tightened up the midsections.
It seems now aesthetics is being rewarded more over pure size/conditioning as we saw with Samson this year.

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In the mid 1980’s the effective use of HGH and insulin began to show a step increase in the amount of muscle that could be stacked on the human body. At the same time extreme definition was increased with effective use of diuretics (very dangerous). At least, that is my observation.

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This is an interesting take. You’d place it above genetics? Or are we saying that you must do SOME sort of resistance training in order to be A bodybuilder: no one is born that way? I can agree with that, of course.

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The above was my intent of resistance training being required.
Now there are extreme exceptions, like extremely poor genetics or physical handicapped people.

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I dig it. It must be done in order to achieve maximal potential, and maximal potential is determined by genetics. No one is going to be A bodybuilder without resistance training, and no one is going to be the BEST bodybuilder without the best genetics. Inspiring for sure.

Since you have a background in powerlifting, I should state that it’s strength sports that got me thinking this way. In those, the training DOES matter. We HAVE seen guys that managed to overcome years long sticking points by finally turning a corner in their training. Dave Tate’s “Iron Evolution” and Louis Simmons “Iron Samurai” both give great re-tellings of this situation. But I’m thinking that bodybuilding is more “pick the right parents, eat the right foods, take the right drugs, punch the clock in the gym, and wait”