would it be better to lift lighter for more reps or lift heavy low reps. I am not trying to add a lot of size just want to get defined. I know this has a lot to do with diet but which is better when lifting
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
would it be better to lift lighter for more reps or lift heavy low reps. I am not trying to add a lot of size just want to get defined. I know this has a lot to do with diet but which is better when lifting[/quote]
Do both.
I don’t mean to be a dick, but I never understood why people didn’t want to get bigger and stronger for any sport. I would think that strength increases would outweigh any adverse effects of being heavier.
[quote]kevbo wrote:
maverick88 wrote:
would it be better to lift lighter for more reps or lift heavy low reps. I am not trying to add a lot of size just want to get defined. I know this has a lot to do with diet but which is better when lifting
Do both.
I don’t mean to be a dick, but I never understood why people didn’t want to get bigger and stronger for any sport. I would think that strength increases would outweigh any adverse effects of being heavier.[/quote]
SO WOULD IT BE A GOOD IDEA TO CHANDE SETS AND REPS EVERY WORKOUT EXAMPLE:
MON: 3x8
WED: 4x10
FRI: 4x12
[quote]mason33 wrote:
Don’t be as dumb as me and fall prey to what the trainers have told you about splitting your routine up. These routines were only introduced since steroids were introduced to help the recovery process from using such drugs.
I would stay away from the muscle one day a week splits. The reason the bigger guys use these splits is because most of them also use steroids and need the recovery time.
[/quote]
ummmm…
anabolics lesson #1:
AAS accelerate recovery…another words, it takes an AAS user LESS time to recover from a workout than a non-AAS user…
your reasoning for why bodybuilders tend to favor split training is flawed…
[quote]DPH wrote:
mason33 wrote:
Don’t be as dumb as me and fall prey to what the trainers have told you about splitting your routine up. These routines were only introduced since steroids were introduced to help the recovery process from using such drugs.
I would stay away from the muscle one day a week splits. The reason the bigger guys use these splits is because most of them also use steroids and need the recovery time.
ummmm…
anabolics lesson #1:
AAS accelerate recovery…another words, it takes an AAS user LESS time to recover from a workout than a non-AAS user…
your reasoning for why bodybuilders tend to favor split training is flawed…[/quote]
I think you just answered why a person would take steroids. To aid in the recovery process from using these split training programs and facillitate quicker recovery time. By destroying a muscle in one workout, it could take anywhere from 7 to 10 days for that muscle to fully recover when using a high number of heavy sets. Considering steroid users like to train a muscle usually around a 6 day split. That would probably be why. Those steroids can explain why a peron works on a 5, 6 or 7 day split.
You would hardly see these splits at all if there were no steroids around. Now everyone uses these splits and they don’t even know that these splits are set up for steroid users.
The only flaw I see is that I didn’t explain this very well. I’m trying to say that a regular split would take even longer without the use of steroids. Futhurmore, it would seem logical that one that can train a muscle 3 times a week will have greater benefits than the guy training it every 7 to 10 days.
I believe Chad Waterbury has alot of articles on this frequency training that I am talking about. I was on 7-10 day splits with full muscle destruction. I now have it down to about 3-4 days. When I get it down to 1 I’ll be right where I need to be for the greatest muscle benefit. I’m having trouble adjusting due to years of training the wrong way. All my experience is from split training. I can tell you this much. You waste alot of time and workouts by training in this fashion.
I hate to say it but I actually agree with DPH.
And yes that is too much, unless you are do max. 2 sets of each exercise. But the order you have them in in faulty too.
Day 1. Is there really a point squatting after everything you’ve already done? Do leg press where your accumulated fatigue won’t work so hard against you.
Day 2. Power cleans after lat pulldowns? They should be the first thing you do as they are the most complex lift.
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
thanks i do prefer /think it is better do to full body routines
[/quote]
you’re a smarter begineer than i was. I listened to those trainers with the bad advice on training splits. You’re on the right path. read some of Waterbury’s articles. He knows more about this stuff than anything a poster is gonna tell you. Your fullbody frequency training is pretty much what he preaches. Good luck.
thanks everyone
[quote]mason33 wrote:
I think you just answered why a person would take steroids. To aid in the recovery process from using these split training programs and facillitate quicker recovery time. By destroying a muscle in one workout, it could take anywhere from 7 to 10 days for that muscle to fully recover when using a high number of heavy sets. Considering steroid users like to train a muscle usually around a 6 day split. That would probably be why. Those steroids can explain why a peron works on a 5, 6 or 7 day split.
[/quote]
again, your reasoning is flawed…
it’s just as easy to over-train from a full-body workout protocol as it is from spliting things up…
in fact, top oly lifters and powerlifters that use full-body workout plans take plenty AAS to facilitate recovery…
horseshit…
well planned out split routines are every bit as effective for non-AAS users as full-body routines…
what’s more important is that total weekly volume needs to be controlled to minimize over-training…this can be done with full-body workouts and split routines alike…
there are a myriad of non-AAS users that effectively control their total weekly volume and make awesome gains on split routines…
nope, you’re wrong again…see above explanation on control of total weekly volume…
logical? is deadlifting heavy a smart thing to do three times a week or every ten days?
making gains is much more complex than a simple maxim of “must work muscle three days a week”…
recovery needs would be better based on the type of training someone is doing…
for instance, how long does it take to recover from a speed training session? how long does it take to recover from a max-effort training session? how long does it take to recover from a repetition-effort training session? how long does it take to recover from an endurance training session? etc…
if someone just got done training max-effort deadlift do they really need to train deadlift again fourty-eight hours later? probably not…
Waterbury writes some great articles for newbies, beginner strength level gym rats, weekend warriors, housewives, etc…
what Waterbury does not do is train advanced level powerlifters, oly lifters, strongmen, bodybuilders, or anyone else that’s actually strong…individuals in this category are not going to get much from the ‘one hour a day, three days a week, full-body workouts’…
sounds to me like you’re not controlling your weekly volume properly…and possibly not getting adequate nutrition and rest for more effective recovery…
when doing full body i have had much advise that states that 2 sets is enough with each exercise. my question is does this mean you lift heavy i mean i can probably do 5 sets of 12 with 100lbs. so when doing 2-3 sets how heavy must you go?
[quote]DPH wrote:
mason33 wrote:
I think you just answered why a person would take steroids. To aid in the recovery process from using these split training programs and facillitate quicker recovery time. By destroying a muscle in one workout, it could take anywhere from 7 to 10 days for that muscle to fully recover when using a high number of heavy sets. Considering steroid users like to train a muscle usually around a 6 day split. That would probably be why. Those steroids can explain why a peron works on a 5, 6 or 7 day split.
again, your reasoning is flawed…
it’s just as easy to over-train from a full-body workout protocol as it is from spliting things up…
in fact, top oly lifters and powerlifters that use full-body workout plans take plenty AAS to facilitate recovery…
You would hardly see these splits at all if there were no steroids around. Now everyone uses these splits and they don’t even know that these splits are set up for steroid users.
horseshit…
well planned out split routines are every bit as effective for non-AAS users as full-body routines…
what’s more important is that total weekly volume needs to be controlled to minimize over-training…this can be done with full-body workouts and split routines alike…
there are a myriad of non-AAS users that effectively control their total weekly volume and make awesome gains on split routines…
The only flaw I see is that I didn’t explain this very well. I’m trying to say that a regular split would take even longer without the use of steroids.
nope, you’re wrong again…see above explanation on control of total weekly volume…
Futhurmore, it would seem logical that one that can train a muscle 3 times a week will have greater benefits than the guy training it every 7 to 10 days.
logical? is deadlifting heavy a smart thing to do three times a week or every ten days?
making gains is much more complex than a simple maxim of “must work muscle three days a week”…
recovery needs would be better based on the type of training someone is doing…
for instance, how long does it take to recover from a speed training session? how long does it take to recover from a max-effort training session? how long does it take to recover from a repetition-effort training session? how long does it take to recover from an endurance training session? etc…
if someone just got done training max-effort deadlift do they really need to train deadlift again fourty-eight hours later? probably not…
I believe Chad Waterbury has alot of articles on this frequency training that I am talking about.
Waterbury writes some great articles for newbies, beginner strength level gym rats, weekend warriors, housewives, etc…
what Waterbury does not do is train advanced level powerlifters, oly lifters, strongmen, bodybuilders, or anyone else that’s actually strong…individuals in this category are not going to get much from the ‘one hour a day, three days a week, full-body workouts’…
I was on 7-10 day splits with full muscle destruction. I now have it down to about 3-4 days. When I get it down to 1 I’ll be right where I need to be for the greatest muscle benefit. I’m having trouble adjusting due to years of training the wrong way. All my experience is from split training. I can tell you this much. You waste alot of time and workouts by training in this fashion.
sounds to me like you’re not controlling your weekly volume properly…and possibly not getting adequate nutrition and rest for more effective recovery…[/quote]
lol, hey DPH did you get all that out in the same breath. Seems like you have forgot the purpose of this thread and that is too help the guy who started it. You seemed to have ignored him and decided to bother me bexause I said that steriod users like to use these splits and they are pretty much useless for s begineer. This poster is a begineer and a soccer player. Do you even bother to read what he is looking for. He already stated that he likes fullbody workouts. I think you are trying to make yourself sound like you know something. Fact is this. Steroid users use these splits almost exclusivly. Without the introduction of steroids, there were hardly ever a use for splits like these. Now you can argue to you’re blue in the face, that does seem to be your MO. Matbe its because you love splits or maybe its because you’re on roids. Either way, this article in not about me or you. Pay attention and help the reader. I pointed him in the way of Waterbury which has numbers of begineer programs. You’re just tooting your own horn and not making any progress.
Advice for the reader. Mix up the rep ranges. You can breakdown more muscle fibre overall. Use both high and low rep ranges. You can do it daily or weekly. But just remember the muscles grow when they are trying to adapt. Once they ADAPT, there will be a need for a change. The more changes you have will produce more adaptations and subsequently more growth.
Now DPH, your objective is completely flawed. Stick to the topic thread instead of making an arguement with me about splits or roids. I don’t like either of them. You seem to be defending them. Lets just leave it at that. IF you like to do chest and tri’s on monday and use a bunch of AAS, great. I’m not into that.
[quote]mason33 wrote:
I’m not into that.
[/quote]
no, what you’re into is spreading idiotic misinformation…you’re doing a great job…
congrats!
[quote]DPH wrote:
Waterbury writes some great articles for newbies, beginner strength level gym rats, weekend warriors, housewives, etc…
what Waterbury does not do is train advanced level powerlifters, oly lifters, strongmen, bodybuilders, or anyone else that’s actually strong…individuals in this category are not going to get much from the ‘one hour a day, three days a week, full-body workouts’…[/quote]
Try actually reading some of Waterbury’s programms. You are actually stating exactly what he says: Three one hour workouts a week are not enough except for beginners. Which is why he recommends working towards a high frequency training programm incorporating 8 fullbody sessions a week.
As for him not training anybody that’s actually strong…well, not sure about your stats, but I am pretty sure his are quite a bit better. His ABBH programm was voted as most influental article of the year a few years back, and his “Bodybuilding’s next frontier” is also considered quite revolutionary. Fullbody training works, and for a natural trainee at most levels, probably much better than a split.
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
when doing full body i have had much advise that states that 2 sets is enough with each exercise. my question is does this mean you lift heavy i mean i can probably do 5 sets of 12 with 100lbs. so when doing 2-3 sets how heavy must you go?[/quote]
leave a few reps left in the tank
Waterbury recommends the frequency of these types of routines, but you don’t want to burn out your CNS, so try not to go to failure. on the 2-3 swets i would go pretty heavy but not to failure.
I know Dorian Yates would 2 2 warm up sets, then one working set in his exercises. You can get alot accomplished by using just 2 or 3 sets. You might want to look at Bruce Lee’s routine. He did somethinf similiar to what you may be looking for. He wanted strength without great size. He didnt want to sacrafice his speed.
his went something like this:
m-w-f
2 sets each
1- Clean & Press 8 reps
2- Squat 8 reps
3- Pullover 8 reps
4- Bench Press 6 reps
5- Good Morning 8 reps
6- Barbell Curl 6 reps
something to that effect.
i’m sure you could make your own with your own rep scheme and exercises.
But if your looking for pure power with a lean build. Well there ya have it.
[quote]Robert P. wrote:
Try actually reading some of Waterbury’s programms. You are actually stating exactly what he says: Three one hour workouts a week are not enough except for beginners. Which is why he recommends working towards a high frequency training programm incorporating 8 fullbody sessions a week.
[/quote]
fair enough, I’m glad he’s encouraging a higher volume load for non-beginners, excellent advice…
to clarify my own position on full-body workouts: sure they work, that’s what oly lifters (and many elite level powerlifters) do…the volume they use is also quite high, often lifting for up to twenty hours a week…
the idea that doesn’t work, is the idea that doing full-body workouts for only a total of three hours a week is best for everyone, this idea is nonsense…
quite possibly, but that wouldn’t mean much as I’m not an advanced lifter…
what I mean by strong are top caliber oly lifters, powerlifters, strongmen, bodybuilders…
Waterbury is no where near that level and doesn’t train anyone of that caliber either…
voted by who? top level pros? I highly doubt it…
it may be the best thing since sliced cheese, but until Waterbury’s ‘Bodybuilding’s Next Frontier’ starts producing top level champions, it’s just an idea that could work but hasn’t been proven…
one of the things that I think is so great about Dave Tate is that he first sees if something works (like the westside training ideas) and THEN he writes about it…
just saying ‘here’s my idea, I KNOW it’s going to be great’ is lame…
first produce champions, then write a book about it, not the other way around…
‘Bodybuilding’s Next Frontier’ is an unproven idea that may or may not stand the test of time…
what’s far more important than the type of training system that someone uses is:
controlling total volume to avoid over-training, level of intensity during workouts, nutritional strategy, getting adequate sleep and recovery between workouts…
from a bodybuilding perspective, full-body workouts have not been proven any more productive than split systems for AAS users and non-users alike…
from a powerlifting perspective, full-body workouts have not been proven any more productive than split systems such as ‘westside methods’ for AAS users and non-users alike…
i think full body workouts will also be better for me because on my off days i am doing Waterbury’s 100 reps to stornger or bigger muscle i cant remember.