Is the second coming really at hand?

Apparently, we are “not alone” here and our
conversations about theology are noticed by
some folks we probably don’t want reading our
stuff. I just got an e-mail that basically
reads, that I “better accept Christianity
before it is too late”. OK, so I accept
Christianity. Yes sir, yes I do :slight_smile:
I accept what the Roman Catholic Church says about all the other churches of Christendom, when it says they are in error; are divided on questions of doctrine; are given over to leaders who are not true shepherds; are doomed to damnation as heretics!
I accept what the Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist and other Protestant churches say about the Roman Catholic church, when they say she is pagan; idolatrous; anti-scripture; in error; of satanic origin!


I accept what the Baptists say about the ‘infant sprinklers’, when they say they have no remission of sins, and are ‘damned’!
I accept what the Seventh Day Adventists say about the Sunday consecrators when they say they have changed the true Sabbath for the pagan ‘day of the Sun’ and are therefore condemned!
I accept what the Sunday keeping churches say about the Adventists when they say the S.D.A. church was founded by a false prophetess (Mrs. White), and her followers are ‘damned’!
I accept what the Unitarians say about followers of the trinity, when they say the trinity is a pagan, idolatrous concept, taken over from other religions, and those who believe in the trinity are idol worshippers!
I accept what the trinitarians say about the unitarians, when they say the latter do not take the ‘new testament’ literally, and are therefore condemned by the literal teachings of the ‘new testament’!
I accept the ‘Jehovah’s Witness’ claim that all other churches and sects are apostates; demonic; agents of Babylon - Rome and Satan! etc.
I accept what other churches say about ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses’ when they say the movement was founded by false prophets (Russel, Rutherford) and that it mistranslates and misinterprets scripture in order to prove it’s own erroneous doctrines!
I accept what the Christadelphians proclaim, when they proclaim that all other Christians are in error; don’t understand the true meaning of the ‘Bible’; believe in fallacy; are not ‘true believers’!!


I accept what the Pentecostal groups say when they say other churches are spiritually dead!
I accept what other churches say about the ‘Pentecostals’ when they say they are possessed by ‘lying spirits’ and are under the influence of mass hysteria! etc. etc.
There were times when rivers of blood were spilt over disagreements concerning questions like: was Jesus’s divine and human nature ‘separate’ or ‘blended’; was Jesus equal with the ‘father’ or inferior to him; was the holy spirit equal to the ‘father’ and the ‘son’ or merely a created force; and similar ideas whose origin is the personal imagination of corrupt theologians. Millions were killed on the altar of this religion! Today, the pen has replaced the sword, but the question still remains: does a self-negating, divided Christianity, with what some consider a horror-story theology of a dying god-man ‘saviour’, have any valid message for mankind?! You tell me… Are there alternatives? I have
one…my alternative?? ‘Thus says HaShem, stand in the way and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls!’ Jeremiah 6:16

Hey, may we all find peace in what believe in BS"D. Just don't knock me because I am not a Christian because I accept Christianity :-)

Brock out

It’s wonderful! There IS someone on the FORUM who
shares a similar philosophy. I don’t normally get
involved in lengthy religious threads where at times,
people sound like “two fleas arguing over who owns
the dog’s back!” I usually just send them LIGHT and
quickly move on to the next thread. I am a pantheist,
for I try to see the unfoldment of GOD in everyone
and in all things. I personally adhere to the teachings
of Earnest Holmes. Your Brother, Joey Z.

Wow, I’m 1/8 Jewish on my mother’s mother’s side. (which according to Jewish law makes me Jewish I think). I was always kind of embarassed about that (I’ve been told I look Jewish…rather have the wasp look)…but after Brock’s notes I feel almost proud. What a commonsensical religion.

The thing I didn’t like about going to a Baptist church and most others’ notes on here echo this is the following concept. They used to say "if you’re 99% sure (of what they’re syaing) then you’re 100% unsure (and going to hell they implied). Basically if you have doubts or you think the idea of confessing all your little “sins” to Jesus so you can go to heaven is infantile…then you’re going to hell. If God made you and gave you a mind, why is it bad to question things? If God really wants you to believe it it should be spiritually obvious not obtuse and stupid. Like this “God gave his only begotten son…have everlasting life, blah blah”. Did I ask him to do that? Why’d God have to do that? “There had to be bloodshed” they’d say. Why? “LOOK YOU EITHER BELIEVE IT OR YOU’RE GOING TO HELL!! DO you want to go to hell?” Like you’re a 3 year old or something. The whole religion is geared toward treating people like they’re idiots and children…they even proudly call themselves sheep.

Also, you can’t “make” yourself believe something. If God is omniscient he knows you’re putting on a show, and it’s stupid. Why should you have to pretend you believe a bunch of stuff you don’t? What God would want you to supress your own personality and stifle all doubts. What God would throw people into hell (and if you read the New Testament, Jesus spend alot of time talking about people being drowned in a lake of fire with millstones around their neck, real pleasant), for celebrating the Sabbath on the wrong day, or some other piddly thing. Why would he care? If he’s that arbitrary and capricious a God, I don’t think I’d want to go to heaven anyway.

Also there are notes on here debating God vs. evolution, etc. You can believe in God without believing in the whole “Bible/Jesus is the only road to salvation…blah blah blah.”

ROTFLMAO! (Rolling On The Floor Laughing My
Ass Off) I’m sorry, I just couldn’t stop
myself from posting anymore. Everytime for three days I scrolled through the topic headers and I would see this and start laughing at the absurdity. “The sky is falling, the sky is falling! It’s the end!”
Where do these people come from? Never mind,
I don’t want to know…

Brock, not a pissing contest or anything, but the jewish religion is not exactly unified either. You have conservative to liberal jews, the christian jews, jews for zionist governments, jews for secular governments, etc, etc. Not to start a debate though, I actually admire your obvious dedication and searching for truth. How about, that a Jew inspiring a Catholic to research the history and theology of his faith more. Later

This may be somewhat of a stupid question but here goes:Are you a Jew based on race or religious belief?You have said previously that anyone can convert to judaism but it seems like family trees are awfully important to certain aspects of the religion at least.Are there different classes of Jews?Is a converted Jew worth as much as a Jew by race?
I know there are some Jews who discourage interracial marriages for example.

re:Concerned 2001

Two things can happen… either it will happen or it wont, if it does there isnt much you can do about it, if it doesn’t … so what.


You might ask yourself… what do you care?

Some say they dont fear death because they belive in everlasting life, hey whatever you need to belive to cope is fine with me, I prefer to face death square on as I belive it is empowering, I personly have no need for religion.<p.
The Ego demands and insists that it should exist forever at the center of the universe sitting on a throne, so is terrifyed of death.
So If you feel you need to tell the ego storys to keep it calm thats a very popular trick.

Christianity is the most practiced religion in the world. A whopping 1/3 of the population worldwide practices Christianity. That means the other 2/3 either believe in something else or nothing at all.

I think that the current problems are a tempest in a teapot. The world has seen far worse in the last 100 years. When they switch from using tactical nuclear weapons to strategic ones I think that might be more of a symptom that the shit is hitting the fan then a few craters showing up in the high desert.

Brock, that was a brilliant expose. You blew away all the xtians. However, there is a little problem. How can there be Seven Laws of Noah for gentiles if Noah never existed? There is no geological evidence that there ever was a worldwide flood. How can God reveal himself to the israeli people when there is no evidence of Moses’ existence, of the exodus or of the plagues brought upon Egypt? Oh by the way, next time you talk to god, ask him to give you next week’s winning lotto numbers.

And for the rest of you:
There is no proof of the existence of god.
There is no need of, or use for, a god.
A good god would be useless if it were not powerful.
A powerful god would not deserve worship if he were not good.
There is no all-powerful good god; otherwise there would be no imperfection.
If this is the best world god can make, the stories of Heaven must be lies.
History shows that godism is accompanied by ignorance and superstition.
There has never been such intolerance and persecution as godists have practiced.
Godism had to be fought when humankind made its successive steps toward science, liberty, and reform.
Godism was invented in the earliest days of mankind’s ignorance. It is incredible that primitive humans guessed wrongly about everything else, but discovered the truth about the origin of life. Everything about which science has discovered the origin was claimed previously to have been the work of a god. Godism recedes when a new fact is discovered. No new discovery ever supports a theistic explanation of anything.
All revelation proves, on investigation, to be human, and generally fraudulent.
Godism is consistent with crime, cruelty, envy, hatred, malice, and uncharitableness.
There is no heavenly father.
Humankind must protect the orphans and foundlings, or they will not be protected.
There is no god to answer prayer.
Man must hear and help man.
There is no hell.
We have no vindictive god or devil to fear or imitate.
There is no atonement or salvation by faith.
We must face the consequences of our acts.
There is no beneficent or malevolent intent in nature.
Life is a struggle against preventable and unpreventable evils. The cooperation of humankind is the only hope of the world.
There is no chance after death to “do our bit.”
We must do it now or never.
There is no divine guardian of truth, goodness, beauty, and liberty.
These are attributes of humankind. We must defend them or they will perish from the earth.

Johny- why do you need to resort to such childish insults?

It is clear you have a very limited view of religion, the result of not studying what you are supposed to be disproving, no doubt. We can get into an “origin of species” debate here, if you please, becuase I can damn near guaranatee you have no idea of what the theory of evolution is based on, or its implications where biology are concerned. As for Brock, I respect his views, because he approached the subject with honor and humility and kindness. Unlike you. But, Brock neglects the fact that if some text was mistranslated, then how can you depend on other parts to be correctly translated? I will not go one by one about his ‘proof’ that Jesus was not the Mesiah, but I will say this- Jesus did indeed build a temple, just not in the physical sense. He built a temple unto God through him. Brock, dont get me wrong, I am not bashing you, I am just trying to point out different views of the same text. By no means do I mean any disrespect to you.

But, like I said, Brock is more than entitled to his view, because he has researched and learned, then come to a conclusion. he didnt just blindly accept what someone else said.

back to you, pal... "primitive humans"? what? The humans, Homo sapiens, that wrote the Bible scriptures, Old and New test., are the exact same Humans, homo sapiens, as you and I. What makes them so primitive? The fact that they didnt have automobiles and planes? Maybe thats cuz they hadnt been discovered yet. The egyptians came up with things that marvel men TO THIS DAY. if that is your idea of primitive, so be it.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say God will make life peachy for all… Look at Job, and you will see. If you dont know what I am referring to, then it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. And concerning the flood, Brock- you should like this, THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A WORLD WIDE FLOOD. There is a steady layer of strata in the earth that is a sudden shift, and evidence of water coverage, and the strata are different from that point on. So, learn before you open your mouth. Not to mention that nearly every culture or religion that can be traced back to the ancient times, around the time of the Great Flood, have some history of a, you guessed it, Great Flood. How could that be? Maybe because it happened…

Concerning Moses- Can you DISPROVE that he existed? Can you PROVE he never existed? not a chance. And what more evidence could you want than written word? Camcorder footage of Moses and the burning bush? sorry for ya, they werent around then. That was how things were documented then, they were written down…

Reply if you like, and we can discuss evolution, or perhaps the big bang THEORIES. Or not. whichever you choose. But, please, do it in an adult manner. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Christianity is the sure bet.If you believe other religions will let you in for just being good and Christianity teaches only throught Jesus you can enter.Being a Christian covers all the bases,if it is right you make it in,if not the others will let you in anyway.what a bargin!!!

Couple of things…the Philosophy 101
guy who says “there is no God” is entitled
to his opinion as I am mine. You say, there
is “no proof of God”. If you want to get
into a philosophical debate about the existance
of God, you will find that I am well versed
in this topic and can offer several proofs
(e.g. read Proslogion for starters).

Just because we have not found archealogical
evidence of Noah or Moses doesn’t mean they
never existed. Can you find archealogical
evidence of your great-great-great-great
granparents? Probably not, but I bet they
existed :slight_smile: Fifty years ago, nobody thought
we could break the sound barrier. It
was an impenetrable speed. Guess what? We
did break it, didn’t we? People also
used to think the Earth was flat and they
were proven wrong. Right now, we don’t
have a cure for many diseases. Does this
mean no cure exists? If so, should we just
stop looking for them then? If I followed
your train of thought (simplistic and
one dimensional as it is), we would be
living in caves still. The lack of
empirical evidence that God exists does not
mean he doesn’t. There is, even by your
constraints, as equal a possibility he exists
that he does not.

And if I asked God for the winning Lotto
numbers next week, who is to say he would
give them to me anyhow? :slight_smile:

I believe God spoke to Adam, to Noah, to
Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. I also believe
he spoke to Moses and that Moses was the
greatest prophet. And when you can
prove none of these people existed empirically
I will give some credence to your ideas.
Until then, you are wasting your time and mine.

FYI - I have been genetically tested and
possess the Kohen Modal Haplotype. A
study was done of Jews who claim to be
kohanim to see if there was a common genetic
linkage. Turns out that something like 98%+
of us who claim priest status have this
gene. This means we have a common male
ancestor as the incidence of this gene in
the general public is under 1%. Guess who
that common ancestor was or at least,
could have been? Aharon haKohen Gadol
(Aaron the High Priest and Moses’ brother).
Now you’ll say, "this doesn’t prove you
got this gene from Aaron, you could have
a common ancestor named Mordechai the
Tailor for all you know…and you’d be
correct). But consider this though…the
sample size for this study was over 500
“kohanim” from all over the world. This
included Sephardic Jews as well as
Ashkenazi Jews (of which I am) as well
as Ethiopian Jews (Beta Yisrael) who are
black and left Judah in the times of
Soloman (and who do not celebrate Chanukah
or Purim). All of us, despite racial
background, all who claim to be priests,
(well 98% of us) have a common ancestor
who was male. Statistically, the
chances of this happening and all of
us claiming to be priests (despite
being scattered around the planet
and being of many racial backgrounds) is
staggering. Additionally, this blows the
idea that Ashkenazi (Khazar Jews of Europe)
are not “really Jews” out of the water
because many of them "converted in the
6th century A.C.E.). I have the gene, the
same gene my Sephardic and Ethiopian
brethren have. This gene has also been
found in kohanim in India where there
are Jews and even in China where there are
Jews. But only (save 1% or so of the general
populace tested) among Jews who claim to
be kohamin. You don’t find this more
than coincidental?

And believing in Jesus is not a safe bet for a Jew. Is is apostasy for us. We have 600+ commandments to follow, B'Nai Noach have 7 rules. Our path is much harder and much different. We get no other greater reward in the afterlife than a Child of Noah but here on earth, when the Messiah comes and ushers in an era of peace, we will be the priests and light to the world. This is the true meaning of "The Chosen People". We are not "chosen" to be "saved" we are "chosen" to lead by example. If you take on the yoke of Judaism (by birth or conversion) you are forever a Jew. You can't convert to anything else and even if you decide to be a Christian, you are still a Jew (albeit in a state of apostasy) in our eyes. Because if you truly repent, God will forgive you. Even on your deathbed. We can't believe in Jesus as divine because he was not the messiah, he did not fulfill the requirements of the messiah, the messiah is not of divine origin anyhow, he advocated changing God's law as give to Moses and he is part of a trinity/Godhead which is anathema to and incompatible with Judaic belief. If you want to know more, there is an awesome web site so go to www.jewfaq.com and learn a thing or two.

Brock

Hi,
My feelings and support are 110% with the American people (communicating from Toronto)! I just wanted to let you know that in times of disaster or catastrophe, we need to, as inhabitants of the WHOLE planet, just step back and view things in perspective. Not a criticism, but we, as North Americans, given our relative geographic protection (until now) from the rest of the world, tend to be perhaps more insular than say Europeans or Asians…What I’m trying to say I guess, is that yes, things seem very terrible right now, but we also have to realize the following:
• other countries ROUTINELY suffer tragedies of much larger scale than this (e.g. earthquakes, floods killing in the tens of thousands in impoverished nations)
• the economy, while down, is a very robust system that self corrects and heals itself with time
• there is substantial support for the US around the world. The British and Canadians have committed significant troops and weaponry for the long term battle with the US
• It’s easy to look to the bible (again) at the second coming, Nostradamus in his obscure language, even the I-Ching probably. Unfortunately, thousands, if not millions, of people who are “knowledgeable” in the aforementioned documents were not able to predict with accuracy the events of Sept. 11/01 never mind the second coming of either saviour or antichrist or buddha.

Rest assured, worse things have happened in history and worse things will happen again. At the same time, we just have to keep reminding ourselves that there’s a lot to be thankful for!

Peace,
kc

hey brock you said that we used to think the world was flat -check this out
The Jerusalem Talmud (1900 years old), quoted in Tosefos (900 year old commentary printed alongside the Babylonian Talmud) says “the world is circular as a ball” (Talmud Avodah Zara 41a).
http://www.shabboshouse.com/askrabbi.html
its a pretty intresting read-I learned some of it with the chabad rabbi on my campus

I wish I did believe in God. but some points, seems like the ones that do seem to love to insult and put down others, seems like the ones that do think “if I am a good person I go to heaven” that is NOT what your books teach!! don’t meen to piss any of you off but again that is NOT what your books teach, atleast READ them if you claim to believe in them, I have more respect ( though they do piss me off at times) for the born-agains and jahova’s (sp?) that go door to door and actualy try to live like their book says then those that go to church on sundays and may be decent people but say how they are “fill in the religion” but have no prob picking a chick up at a bar and boneing her that night, getting tat’s, cursing, putting people down, being rude, etc… and think “I go to heaven” every religion teaches I am special and you are not, so if your religion is right shouldn’t you live by it? just a Q. again to those that believe I envy you. peace

Who are we to predict the second coming of Christ? The Bible says, “We know, not the hour nor the day. He will come as a theif in the night.” I for one want to confess my Chrisitianity. I beleive Jesus Christ died on the cross, so that I could one day have a heavenly home to look forward to. Christianity is built off faith and America has no faith. Everyone feels they have to physically see something to beleive it. I pray for victim’s families and the families of our troops. This nation needs prayer, Christians. Non-Christians, it’s a free country and everyone is entitled to their right to beleive as they chose. I would like to close by stating that I do not claim to be perfect, I make mistakes. So before someone goes on flaming about me thinking I am a “Jesus Freak” or anything to that nature. Please realize this is a mere reflection of my heart, faith, and beleives.

Sorry, my religion and my bible (the Tanakh)
clearly teaches that B’Nai Noach (any
child of Noah who follows the 7 Noahide
laws) and is a non-Jew is a righteous
Gentile and gets to go to Heaven. So by
you saying, “read your bible”, I find it
insulting because I study my religion
every day! I do Daf Yomi (read a piece
of the Talmud daily). Today I read Bava Kama 82. I get this sent to me by e-mail daily.
For those with an interest,I will post the A and B side of this:

12A (comments on the Hebrew):

  1. [line 2] ISHTAMTIN ULA - Ula is avoiding me, lest I refute him

  2. [line 3] NEHARDE’AH - a town in Babylon, seat of the Yeshiva founded by Shmuel

  3. [line 3] AGVU DAYANEI D’NEHARDA’AH - the court judges in Neharde’ah collected Avadim from orphans

  4. [line 4] PUMBEDISA - the location of a great Yeshiva in Bavel (lit. Mouth of Bedisa, a canal of the Euphrates)

  5. [line 6] MAGVINAN LECHU L’APADNAICHU - or I will confiscate your (a) mansion; or (b) courtyard (both sources ARUCH) from you

  6. [line 10] PRUZBUL - (A document allowing the collections of loans after Shemitah)
    (a) The Torah requires that all loans shall be canceled every seventh year, as it states in Devarim 15:2, “Shamot Kol Ba’al Masheh Yado” - “Every creditor who lends anything to his neighbor shall release it.” To demand payment of a loan after the Shemitah year is a violation of the prohibition of “Lo Yigos Es Re’ehu v’Es Achiv” - “he shall not exact it of his neighbor or of his brother” (ibid.) Most Rishonim rule that the Shemitah year cancels loans at the end of the year, on the last day of the month of Elul. (RAMBAM Hilchos Shemitah v’Yovel 9:1-4).
    (b) Hashmatas Kesafim applies mid’Oraisa only when the Yovel year is in practice. Mid’Rabanan it applies today, whether inside or outside of Eretz Yisrael.
    (c) Hillel the Elder saw that people stopped giving loans when the Shemitah year was approaching out of fear that that they would not get their money back because the debt would be annulled by the Shemitah year. By doing so, they were transgressing an express command of the Torah not to refuse to lend money prior to Shemitah (Devarim 15:9). Hillel therefore instituted the “Pruzbul” (from the Greek “Pruz” = benefit; “Buli” = [for] the rich), effectively creating a way to avoid having Shemitah annul one’s debts, as long as the borrower owns some land (Shevi’is 10:3,6).
    (d) In a Pruzbul document, one files a contract with Beis Din, before the end of the Shemitah year, stating that he is placing all debts owed to him into the hands of the Beis Din to collect them for him (Shevi’is 10:4). By doing this, the creditor will not transgress the prohibition of “Lo Yigos” when he collects the loan after Shemitah, since he will not have to approach the borrower to collect the loan; Beis Din will take care of the collection and he will approach Beis Din. Beis Din, too, does not have to approach the borrower to collect the loan, since Beis Din can simply collect it themselves using their power of “Hefker Beis Din Hefker” (RASHI to Kesuvos 89a DH Pruzbul, to Gitin 32b DH Mosrani and to Bava Basra 27a DH Pruzbul). A Pruzbul only allows a person to collect the loan after Shemitah if the borrower has land. It is unusual for a person to lend money to a person without land, and the Rabanan did not institute the use of Pruzbul for unusual loans (RASHI to Gitin 37a DH Ela and to Bava Basra 27a DH Pruzbul). Alternatively, Pruzbul permits a person to collect a loan after Shemitah because the moment one allows Beis Din to collect his loans, it is as if they are already collected, and in his possession, immediately (since nothing can stop Beis Din from collecting the loan). This is also the reason the borrower must own land in order for Pruzbul to permit the collection of the loan. It is only if he has land that Beis Din can easily collect the loan. If the borrower only has movable possessions, it is possible for him to prevent Beis Din from collecting them by hiding them from Beis Din. Therefore they are not considered to have entered the creditor’s possession until they are actually collected as payment. (RASHI to Bava Kama 12a DH Chal)

  7. [line 11] METALTELIN NIKNIN IM HA’KARKA (KINYAN AGAV - the transfer of ownership by means of [the transfer of land])
    (a) According to Torah law, certain modes of transferring ownership (Kinyanim) are effective only for land (Mekarka’in), while others are effective only for mobile objects in general (Metaltelin) or for specific mobile objects such as slaves (see next entry). Kinyan Agav is effective for the transfer of mobile objects in general.
    (b) A Kinyan “Agav Karka” is a “package deal” wherein when land is transferred through one of the modes of transferring land one automatically transfers mobile objects as well. For example, if a person is interested in selling a parcel of land and also a cow, when the buyer pays for the land, thereby acquiring it through Kinyan Kesef, he immediately acquires the cow as well. This Kinyan is learned from the verse in Divrei ha’Yamim II 21:3 (Gemara below).
    (c) The Gemara (Kidushin 26a) discusses whether the mobile object that one transfers with Kinyan Agav must be located in the parcel of land that is being transferred or not. This is known as “Tzevurin.” The Gemara (ibid. 27a) concludes that it is not necessary for the mobile objects to be Tzevurin.

  8. [line 13] HECHEZIK (KINYAN CHAZAKAH)
    (a) When a person buys an object, he must make a Ma’aseh Kinyan, a formal Halachically-binding act denoting his acquisition of the object, in order for the sale to be irrevocably binding. Depending on what object one is acquiring, different Kinyanim are used, as follows.
    (b) The forms of Kinyan that may be used for the acquisition of Metaltelin (mobile items) are:

  1. Hagbahah, i.e. lifting the item;
  2. Meshichah, i.e. pulling the item or causing it to move;
  3. Mesirah, i.e. handing over the reigns of an animal or the tie lines of a boat, or a bill of debt (Shtar Chov);
  4. Chatzer, i.e. bringing the item into one’s private domain;
  5. Chalipin (exchange or barter), i.e. taking another object to demonstrate one’s consent for the Kinyan (or for an agreement).
  6. Agav, i.e. acquiring the moveable object automatically upon the acquisition of land.
    (c) The forms of Kinyan that may be used for the acquisition of land are:
  7. Kesef, i.e. paying at least a Perutah’s worth of money for the land;
  8. Shtar, i.e. receiving a legal document containing the details of the sale;
  9. Chazakah, i.e. performing an act that is normally performed only by an owner;
  10. Chalipin (as mentioned above, b:5)
    (d) Examples of Chazakah for real estate are Na’al (locking), Gadar (fencing in) and Paratz (making a breach in a fence to create an entrance) or any act that is done to enhance the land, such as digging to improve a field and the like (MISHNAH Bava Basra 42a).
    (e) A normal adult slave, although mobile, is compared to real estate with regard to the type of Kinyan that is required for his purchase (Kidushin 22b, based on Vayikra 25:46). As such, a slave may be purchased with Kesef (paying money), Shtar (handing over a contract) or Chazakah (having the slave perform an act for his intended master that demonstrates their impending relationship, with the intention of buying him).
    (f) Examples of Chazakah for slaves are taking off his master’s shoes, following his master to the bathhouse carrying a change of clothing for him, undressing his master, washing him, etc. (Kidushin ibid.).
  1. [line 24] “[VA’YITEN LAHEM AVIHEM MATANOS RABOS L’CHESEF UL’ZAHAV UL’MIGDANOS IM] AREI METZUROS BIYEHUDAH…” - “And their father gave them many gifts of silver and gold and of precious things, with fortified cities in Yehudah…” (Divrei ha’Yamim II 21:3)

  2. [line 24] D’LO NAIDEI - that do not move
    11a) [line 25] NECHASIM SHE’EIN LAHEM ACHRAYUS - mobile goods such as money
    b) [line 26] NECHASIM SHE’YESH LAHEM ACHRAYUS - immobile goods such as land

  3. [line 25] NECHASIM SHE’EIN LAHEM ACHRAYUS NIKNIN IM NECHASIM SHE’YESH LAHEM ACHRAYUS B’CHESEF BI’SHTAR UV’CHAZAKAH
    (a) When a person purchases Nechasim she’Yesh Lahem Achrayus (immobile goods such as land) along with Nechasim she’Ein Lahem Achrayus (mobile goods such as a flowerpot), as soon as he makes a Kinyan of Kesef (paying money), Shtar (handing over a contract) or Chazakah (enhancing the land with the intention of buying it) on the land, he concurrently buys the mobile goods, also (Kidushin 26a and RASHI ibid.).


    (b) The word Achrayus in this context means that people will trust a borrower who owns land since they can expect to extract payment from the land should the borrower not have the money to pay back his loan (RASHI ibid.).

  4. [line 32] B’ODAN ALAV - while they are upon the slave

  5. [line 33] CHATZER MEHALECHES HI
    (a) When a person acquires an object, he must make a Ma’aseh Kinyan (a formal Halachically-binding act denoting the change in ownership). See above, entry 8.
    (b) The Kinyan of Chatzer works only when the Chatzer is a stationary domain. If the Chatzer is a moving domain (“Chatzer Mehaleches” – lit. “a walking Chatzer”), then the Chatzer is not effective to make a Kinyan. Hence, an object placed on a person’s slave cannot be acquired through Kinyan Chatzer (even though the slave is considered the person’s domain), because the slave is a moving Chatzer.

  6. [line 35] KAFUS - bound

12B commentary starts here:

  1. [line 1] LO BE’INAN TZEVURIN - Kinyan Agav does not require that the Metaltilin be on the land with which it is being acquired

  2. [line 5] SADNA D’AR’A CHAD HU - the block of the earth is a single entity

18a) [line 8] KODSHIM KALIM / KODSHEI KODASHIM
(a) The term Kodshei Kodashim refers to the Korbenos Olah, Chatas and Asham (and Menachos), which have a greater degree of sanctity. They may only be slaughtered in the northern part of the Azarah and may only be eaten in the Azarah by Kohanim.
(b) The term Kodshim Kalim refers to the Korbenos Shelamim, Todah, Ma’aser Behemah, Pesach and Bechor, which have a lesser degree of sanctity. They may be slaughtered in the entire Azarah (and not only in its northern part) and may be eaten in the entire city of Yerushalayim by men or women.

b) [line 9] MAMON BE'ALIM HU (a) As soon as a person dedicates any article of his property to Hekdesh, it leaves his possession and enters the possession of Hekdesh. Therefore, the person may no longer sell it or give it as a present as a normal owner would. (b) However, Rebbi Yosi ha'Gelili rules that this law only applies to Kodshei Kodashim (see Background to Pesachim 82:8b) and to Kodshei Bedek ha'Bayis (objects that are dedicated to Hekdesh *not* as a sacrifice), which are considered Mamon Gavo'ah (property of Heaven) as soon as they are dedicated. Kodshim Kalim remain the property of their owner in all respects until they are slaughtered, except for the fact that they must be offered on the Mizbe'ach to fulfill his pledge. Therefore, according to Rebbi Yosi ha'Gelili, a person may use Kodshim Kalim to betroth a woman; likewise, he may sell them or give them as a present.

19a) [line 9] “U’MA’ALAH MA’AL BA’HASH-M” - “[If a person sins,] and commits treachery against HaSh-m, [and lies to his neighbor about an object that was delivered to him to guard, or about [money given to him as] a fellowship, or about an object taken away by force, or he has defrauded his neighbor.]” (Vayikra 5:21)

b) [line 10] L’RABOS KODSHIM KALIM (ASHAM GEZEILOS)
(a) When a person steals money from a fellow Jew (see previous entry), swears in Beis Din that he holds no such money and later admits his sin, he must return what he stole, pay a fine of Chomesh, and bring a Korban Asham Vadai to receive atonement (Vayikra 5:20-26). The Korban Asham Gezeilos is a ram that costs at least two Sela’im.
(b) Since the verse states, “v’Kichesh ba’Amiso,” - “and [he] lies to his neighbor” (ibid. 5:21), objects of Hekdesh are excluded from this Korban. Rebbi Yosi ha’Gelili, however, learns from the words “u’Ma’alah Ma’al ba’Hash-m” (ibid.) that Kodshim Kalim are considered the personal property of their owner. As such, a person could betroth a woman with them, and stealing Kodshim Kalim could lead to a Korban Asham Gezeilos.

20) [line 11] HA'MEKADESH B'CHELKO - a Kohen who betroths a woman with his share of the Korbanos of the Beis ha'Mikdash

  1. [line 16] MI’SHULCHAN GAVO’AH KA ZACHU - the Kohanim receive the portion of the Korbanos from “HaSh-m’s table”; they don’t have any monetary rights to it merely a Zechus to eat it

  2. [line 17] BECHOR (BECHOR BEHEMAH TEHORAH)
    (a) The Kedushah of Bechor rests on every first-born male of an ox, goat or sheep when it comes out of its mother’s womb. Nevertheless, there is a Mitzvah for a person to sanctify it himself (Erchin 29a, based on Devarim 15:19). He must then give it to a Kohen; it may not be redeemed.
    (b) If the animal has no Mum (blemish), the Kohen must bring it as a Korban during its first year. After its blood and Emurim (see Background to Yevamos 7:8 and 100:9) are offered on the Mizbe’ach, its meat is eaten in Yerushalayim during the following two days and the intervening night. If the animal has or develops a Mum, it must be slaughtered and eaten during its first year. If it developed a Mum after the first year, it must be slaughtered and eaten within thirty days. The Kohen can give it away or sell it, even to a non-Kohen. However, it may not be sold in a meat market or weighed in the usual manner.
    (c) Now that there is no Beis ha’Mikdash, a Kohen must care for a Bechor until it develops a Mum. Alternatively, he can sell it, even if it has no Mum, to a non-Kohen, who may eat it after it develops a Mum. It may not be sold in a meat market in the usual manner, or bought in order to resell for a profit (Sefer ha’Chinuch #393, #445). The Chachamim penalized a person who intentionally inflicts a Mum in a Bechor, that the animal may never be slaughtered (Bechoros 34a).

Addtional comments of note:
WHICH WITNESSES COUNT

A get divorce document which does not have two witnesses
signed upon it but is delivered to the woman in the presence
of witnesses is valid according to the view of Rabbi Elazar.
Rabbi Elazar’s interpretation of the Torah directive to
“write” a get is limited to the writing of the text alone; it
does not refer to the signing of witnesses. Rabbi Meyer, by
contrast, considers a get without witnesses signed upon it as
invalid even if it is relayed before witnesses.

The gemara concludes that we rule like Rabbi Elazar who states in the mishna that the witnesses of the delivery make the get valid; the only reason the Sages instituted that the witnesses sign the get, continues the gemara, is to protect the woman: If her husband eventually challenges the divorce and the witnesses to the delivery are not alive or unavailable to testify to its validity, the signatures can be used to validate the get.

Rabbi Yitzchak Alfasi (Rif) initiated a lively debate amongst
the early commentaries by declaring that if there are no
witnesses to the delivery, only witnesses signed upon the get,
it is valid even according to Rabbi Elazar. One of his proofs
is the above-mentioned rabbinical enactment to have witnesses
sign so that their signatures would serve as proof of the
get’s validity in case delivery witnesses were unavailable.
If such witnesses are not sufficient, he asks, what is the
value of the decree?

His position is challenged by a disciple of his, Rabbi
Ephraim, whose view (and that of the Tosefists) is that since
Rabbi Elazar always states that delivery witnesses are what
counts and he never explicitly adds that signed witnesses are
sufficient, we must conclude that without delivery witnesses,
the get is invalid. The rabbinical decree to have witnesses
sign, explains Rabbi Ephraim, is a safeguard to indicate that
there were indeed witnesses to the delivery since we assume
that witnesses would not have signed on a get unless they saw
that there were witnesses to the delivery. But if we know
that there were no such witnesses to the delivery the get will
be invalid.

Rabbeinu Nissim (Ran) elaborates in his defense of the Rif’s
position and offers a revolutionary explanation for signed
witnesses being effective even when we know there were no
delivery witnesses. Since they saw the writing of the get and
now see it in the hands of the woman, we consider it as if
they saw the actual delivery. Since there is no other
plausible explanation for how it got to her, we view the
conclusion the witnesses reach as an extension of what they
actually saw.

(At the end of his long discussion on his position, Rif quotes
one of the Geonim who disagrees with him, explaining that
“even though his words contradict mine I chose to quote them,
because they represent heavenly labor.”)

  • Gittin 86a

=====================================

A NOT SO BAD KING

On the list of the kings of the Kingdom of Israel, which was
composed of the ten tribes that had seceded from the Kingdom
of Yehuda during the reign of Rechavam, is Hoshea ben Eilah.
He is described (Melachim II 17:2) as “doing what was evil in
the eyes of Hashem, but not like the kings of Israel before
him.” This would seem to indicate a radical change in the
pattern of idol worship set by his predecessors. Yet the very
next passage reports that his kingdom was punished by an
invasion from the Assyrian king who made Hoshea subservient to
him. Why would he, more righteous than the preceding kings,
be thus subjugated while they were not?

The gemara’s explanation of this paradox returns us to the
founder of the Kingdom of Israel, Yerovam ben Nevat. Fearful
that if his followers were to make their regular pilgrimages
to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices in the Beit Hamikdash which
was under the control of his rival, Rechavam, they would
eventually desert him and rejoin the Kingdom of Yehuda, ruled
by David’s descendants. He therefore established two golden
calves which he placed in Bet El and Dan as alternative
objects of worship and he installed sentries along the roads
to prevent pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

This pattern of worshipping idols and preventing Jews from
going to the Beit Hamikdash was continued by succeeding kings
of Israel, who are described as following in the evil ways of
Yerovam. Hoshea was also an idol worshipper but when he saw
that Yerovam’s golden calves were exiled by a foreign power he
decided to do away with the sentries and to allow his subjects
the choice of going to Jerusalem or worshipping the local
idols. This is what is meant by his being evil but not like
those before him.

Once the Jews in his kingdom had the opportunity of making
pilgrimage to Jerusalem and yet failed to do so, Hashem
decreed that they would go into exile for all those years they
did not go up to Jerusalem. This is the connection to the
next passage describing the beginning of that exile.

A serious problem is raised by Maharsha (Mesechta Bava Batra
121a). The Sage Ulla states that the 15th day of the Month of
Av is a holiday for Jews because it was on that date that
Hoshea removed the sentries. Why is this a cause for
celebration, he asks, if it was this un-utilized opportunity
which served as the catalyst for exile? Maharsha remarks that
there is a resolution for this problem, but he does not spell
it out. It has been suggested that the opportunity was
utilized by some righteous Jews, which made it a day to be
annually remembered, but that the majority clinging to
idolatry despite their new religious freedom brought about
their exile.

(BTW, I want to wish all Jewish readers a good Rosh Hodesh tonight as we go from the month of Tishrei to Cheshvan - don't forget to add the appropriate passages during mincha and ma'ariv for this).

You don’t think I know my bible, eh? :slight_smile:

Anyhow, do NOT, never, ever, NEVER…claim to
tell me what my bible says or does not says
without reading it and being able to cite
the passage your are making your claim on.
Because I will surely make you look foolish
and I really hate doing this. I am sure
some of the Christian scholars discussing
this topic in this thread can do the same
to you for New Testament citations, an area
I am not well versed in, especially
exegetically (for obvious reasons :-).

Brock

And just because you really irked me…

What exactly does it means to be
a righteous Gentile (One who is blessed by G-d and has found favor in His Eyes)?

The Bible teaches us that at Mount Sinai God revealed His word and law (Torah) to
the Jewish people. But the Bible also teaches us that this was not the first time God
revealed His law. The covenant that God made with Israel was not His first
covenant with mankind.

It is true that Israel was (and is) chosen to be God’s nation of priests (Exodus 19:6).
Yet, almost one thousand years before this, right after the flood, God revealed
to Noah certain universal laws that were to be obeyed by all mankind. These
universal laws consist of seven general categories. It is these laws that
are the definition and foundation of a moral and just society.

God gave these seven categories of universal law to Noah and to all his children.
This was God’s first covenant with all mankind, for we are all the children of Noah.

Only by fulfilling the universal laws of these seven categories can a gentile
stand in righteousness before God.

Yes, actions count! Theological beliefs are simply not enough for the gentile to
stand righteously before God. Even the Christian Bible acknowledges this.
James says, “faith without works is dead” (C.B. James 2:17,20). To what
works does James refer? When gentiles began to join their new religion, the book
of Acts records that the question was asked if these gentiles needed to convert
and become Jews. James responded by saying no. These gentiles only had to
do certain things (Acts 15:29). What James outlined was the basic seven
universal laws incumbent upon all of Noah’s children.

While we Jews did not/do not acknowledge the new religion founded by James and
his brother, nonetheless, even James acknowledged the need of the gentile to
observe their ancient covenant with God.

These seven universal laws for the children of Noah are as applicable and in
force today as they were in the days of Noah and in the days of James.
Only by observing them does a gentile become a righteous gentile.

These then are the seven general categories of the universal laws for the children of Noah, which are incumbent on all mankind:

  1. (The prohibition against ) worship of false gods.

  2. ( The prohibition against ) cursing God.
    (this includes the forbiddance of cursing God’s chosen people Israel, (anti Semitism) and the prohibition against blaspheming the Holy Spirit by claiming the works of the Rabbis are not inspired by God.

  3. ( The prohibition against) murder.
    (however capital punishment for the crime of murder is required. per Gen. 9:6 ).

  4. (The prohibition against) forbidden sexual relations. (this includes the prohibition against homosexuality and bestiality ).

  5. (The prohibition against) theft.
    (these laws are greatly detailed by the Rabbis in books of Jewish law, and
    many of these details are as applicable to the gentile as they are to the Jew ).

  6. (The command to establish) laws and courts of justice . . .(this includes the obligation to adhere to the laws of the land as long as those laws do not contradict the laws of God ).

  7. (the prohibition against) eating flesh from a living animal. (this includes the prohibition of inflicting unnecessary pain upon animals ).

There is so much disunity today caused by conflicting religious doctrines. Everyone is so ready to condemn another if that other does not share the same beliefs. This course of action is not the holy path of God. Unlike other religions, Judaism does not claim to be the right path for everyone. In matter of fact, Judaism acknowledges that there are different paths for different peoples. The only thing that unites us all are those universal laws and truths that God Himself has ordained in the Bible and expounded upon by the true keepers of the keys to His Kingdom, (Deut. 17: 8-12).

There is no more room for argument of doctrine and theology.
Such arguments are not for the glory of God.

The wisest advice I can offer and that you can take is to read your Bible, specifically what
you call the “Old” Testament. See for yourself what God’s path is.
Stop relying upon others to tell you your spiritual truths.
Seek them out yourself! Read the Bible yourself !!

For centuries Jews were faced with certain death from hostile religious
authorities if we ever spoke to the gentile community about the truths that
God has for them. Thank the Lord those days have past.
We can hopefull fulfill our Biblical duty of being a light to the nations very soon.

Additional interest -

The Congress of the United States of America has declared that the
seven universal laws commanded to Noah (the Noahide laws) are
“the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization”.

U.S. Congress, H.J. Resolution 104, Public Law 102-14, 1991

This proclamation was signed by President George Bush on March 20th, 1991. -

Brock

Brock- who irked you?

And if you dont mind, I would like to ask you a few questions about the Jewish faith. Nothing bad or insulting, just some things I am confused about.
Does the Jewish faith in general(since I know there are sects of Judaism, just like sects of Christianity) actually believe in Heaven and Hell. The reason I ask is because I am dating a Jewish girl. And she doesnt know if she beleives in Heaven or Hell(I believe she refered to it once as Shi’ol?).
And your last couple of posts made me wonder about something. You said there could be Gentiles that could be granted passage to Heaven. But, in the fact that Christians beleive in Jesus, wouldn’t that be taking another God before Him? A false prophet, or false Lord, if you will? I apologize if I have offended you with these questions, I am just curious. Thanks.