Is Soreness Necessary for Growth?

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Nathan, your pictures don’t exactly lend you the credibility to call anyone ‘nerds’ for disagreeing.

Based on what I’ve seen from his log, he is the epitome of someone who has been lifting for years without much progress as far as his physique. If I remember correctly, he’s pretty strong for his size but he doesn’t even look as if he lifts.
[/quote]

Yes and he eats spam from a can and other dumb bullshit all while being a ‘pt’.

He is the epitome of shitty ‘personal trainers’ that chain gyms are poisoned with.

42

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Nathan, your pictures don’t exactly lend you the credibility to call anyone ‘nerds’ for disagreeing.

Based on what I’ve seen from his log, he is the epitome of someone who has been lifting for years without much progress as far as his physique. If I remember correctly, he’s pretty strong for his size but he doesn’t even look as if he lifts.

Yes and he eats spam from a can and other dumb bullshit all while being a ‘pt’.

He is the epitome of shitty ‘personal trainers’ that chain gyms are poisoned with.[/quote]

Swole, your breaking my heart. So your telling me all those PT’s I see in my gym showing their clients the path to a new body using machines and light and fluffy 2 1/2 lb db’s dont know what the eff their talking about? Blasphemy, I say!

43

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
im going to try to predict some things about you artem.

  1. you are a beginner
  2. you dont use 3 x 12 (dont hate)
  3. you dont focus on eccentric portions of the lift/or you dont do eccentric training
  4. your idea of progress is that you are more comfortable with lifting and you are getting stronger. you might have gained a bit of weight (less than 10lbs) since you started
  5. you dont do explosive olympic lifts
  6. you dont or rarely exceed 90% your max or PR effort. if you do, you dont or cant do upto three repititions.
  7. you dont know your PR for most of your lifts

whats wrong with numbers

5,6,7? if youre training for size then why is training for strength so important? if you want size train for size, if you want strength train for strength. unless youre a powerlifter that shit doesnt matter at all. all 1RMs are good for is bragging rights and in the world of bodybuilding your body is what does the bragging not 1RM’s.[/quote]

i was speaking in terms of DOMS, not bodybuilding. and i think knowing your PR would def help with bodybuilding. 1rm isn’t just for bragging rights, unless you are a powerlifter, i use it as one of the indicators of progression.

44

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
Nathan, your pictures don’t exactly lend you the credibility to call anyone ‘nerds’ for disagreeing.

Based on what I’ve seen from his log, he is the epitome of someone who has been lifting for years without much progress as far as his physique. If I remember correctly, he’s pretty strong for his size but he doesn’t even look as if he lifts.
[/quote]

thanks on the pretty strong comment. i know you had to bite your lip while writing that. regarding your comment, “someone whos been lifting for years”… i took a hiatus from may 2007 to november 2007. prior to that i did 30 minute full body routines twice a week just to maintain. you never have time when you work in nyc. i was never serious about getting big or getting super strong.

i did something like

squats 135lbs 4 x 8
single arm bent over rows 3 x 12
bench press 3 x 12
boxing 10 minutes (heavy bag speed bag)

simple and effective. it got my blood going.

starting november i lifted a couple times with a college powerlifter from penn state. and ever since, i’ve been putting in some effort on increasing my PR’s. The effort was half assed at best because i was a full time student, full time job, and had an attention whore girlfriend. I think I’ve made decent gains since then.

day after thanksgiving to now…
bench press 185lbs - 245lbsx3
squats 185lbs - 295lbs
deadlift 225lbs - 415lbs
pull ups 8 in a row - 7 to 8 reps with 90lbs added weight

you can see that my biggest gains were in deads and pull ups.
anything that improves on me, my deads go up. my deads go up, my bench goes up even though i dont really do chest at all.

and to everyone whos so into my physique. thanks for the interest, but frankly i dont give a flying fuck what you think of my aesthetics. lol. i DO NOT work out for extreme hypertrophy. but i am working towards a summer body.

can we get back to the original topic?

something i wanna add. soreness also occurs when the body experiences something it hasn’t adapted to. take a seasoned football player making a transition to wrestling. the kids i knew who did that got sore just as much as i did. so soreness or DOMS can also be an indicator of the body trying to adapt. sounds simple enough but if a powerlifter tried to pick up heavyweights like alexander karelin, although the bodies will be lighter, the powerlifter will feel it in the morning.

45

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:

Varanid wrote:If you read my post carefully you may learn that I never said that DOMS is not a good indicator of muscle damage. In fact I said that it is a component of the whole muscle damage process. What I did say though, is that muscle soreness is not NECESSARY for muscle growth.

ZN: i might be weakening my point but i can see how both can be true. for example, take a 30 yr old male who has never worked out in his life. put him through a light full body workout. he wont be sore as shit the next day, maybe even not at all, but just the fact that he went through something he hasn’t done, the muscles will get damaged and respond with hypertrophy. ugly sentence.
now take a seasoned olympic wrestler. this guy is training 3 - 5 hours a day 6 times a weak with punishing workouts; calisthenics, plyos, drills, conditioning, etc. will he experience DOMS everyday? Will he continuously hypertrophy? No, he will not. change his life. put him through charles poliquin’s toughest hypertrophy program. i bet my pinky toe that he will get sore. and i bet he will gain weight. he will hypertrophy.
[/quote]

Realize that DOMS is nothing more than an expression of pain-good or bad depending on the person.

If person A goes and lifts and does significant damage to his muscles, and gets DOMS… and than recovers correctly, there will be growth.

If person A goes and lifts and does a much less degree of damage to his muscles (but still creates enough), and does not get DOMS…and still recovers correctly, there will still be growth.

DOMS has not direct bearing on whether or not growth will occur. Growth will occur only if a stimulus- how ever small or large it may be- occurs to damage muscle AND then correct recovery is achieved.

So is soreness necessary for growth?

I would say no.

46

Another question to this topic: If I am still sore (let’s assume three days after a workout), do I still grow? Logically, it appears to me, that it would be better to train again, when you a little bis sore. (when you fell a little soreness, when you squeeze your muscle etc) But will it hinder my progress, if I skip the total body workout that day?

Greetings

47

for me i found out that proper PWO nutrition (fast protein and carbs) makes a huge difference

i can do 3 sets of chinups in 5 minutes on an off day (no PWO nutrition) and feel noticably sore in my biceps the next day

on the other hand i can do a hour long workout on my biceps+triceps (which includes 8-9 sets of chinups) but feel almost nothing the next day because of proper PWO nutrition

i’ve been lifting for about 7 years

48

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Is muscle soreness necessary for growth?

I say yes. Absolutely, indisputably, necessarily so.

Muscle soreness is an indication of breakdown. Without having been broken down, the stimulus for growth simply does not exist.

I see no alternative explanation to this which conforms to basic physiology.

I am a personal trainer and I tell my clients that DOMS is a fantastic way to judge the effectiveness of workouts.

I would like to know if anyone disagrees with me and if they can produce a credible, opposing argument.

Let’s get it on.

The ring fight from Escape From New York!! - YouTube [/quote]

If you are a trainer you should know that the recovery is what builds muscle, not the breakdown of muscle. And typically, any workout where you are very sore later will negatively effect the next workout.

So while soreness may make you think you did a good job in the weight room, it may actually hurt your recovery in the long run and not produce the results you want.

So personally I would look to progression in load or volume as an indicator of progress, not being sore. Because continual soreness will not help you recover, and recovery is where it all takes place.

49

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
im going to try to predict some things about you artem.

  1. you are a beginner
  2. you dont use 3 x 12 (dont hate)
  3. you dont focus on eccentric portions of the lift/or you dont do eccentric training
  4. your idea of progress is that you are more comfortable with lifting and you are getting stronger. you might have gained a bit of weight (less than 10lbs) since you started
  5. you dont do explosive olympic lifts
  6. you dont or rarely exceed 90% your max or PR effort. if you do, you dont or cant do upto three repititions.
  7. you dont know your PR for most of your lifts

none of these predictions have any solid scientific backings to it. there might be, but i couldn’t tell ya where to look. these are predictions solely on my experience and my clients’, but just like the first guy i described in my post, you could be that guy.

on the other hand, i can be completely wrong.
you can be training very intelligently, following a set curriculum with a solid routine and an excellent diet. you might be doing 10 - 20 minutes of light myofascial release and or stretching after each session. you also progress your weights slowly but steadily.

this is how i talk when i dont sleep btw. [/quote]

  1. Check, 15, about 7 months in, about 1-2 months knowing somewhat what I’m doing.

  2. Check, 3x8 for upper body, 4x14 for lower, 4x14 for Calves, 3x14 for forearms, 4x14 for lower back…
    program that Gerdy helped me compile

  3. I really have no clue as to what this means, sorry - do tell, please?

  4. Checkish. My idea of progress is when I progress the poundages of the weight that I use and that I look better. I have gained less than 5 pounds since I started, but I have lost a considerable amount of fat along with the muscle that I have put on and my body already looks completely different. Isn’t that what you judge progress by?

  5. You mean snatches and all of that? Check. I’m not a “powerlifter.” Am I getting something wrong here?

  6. Do you mean that I rarely do my one rep max? Then check. If you can do three reps, then it wouldn’t be the max, would it?.. I am constantly setting new personal records, though.

  7. My personal record in all of my lifts is what I am constantly striving to break, so yes, I do.

50

[quote]Varanid wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:

Varanid wrote:If you read my post carefully you may learn that I never said that DOMS is not a good indicator of muscle damage. In fact I said that it is a component of the whole muscle damage process. What I did say though, is that muscle soreness is not NECESSARY for muscle growth.

ZN: i might be weakening my point but i can see how both can be true. for example, take a 30 yr old male who has never worked out in his life. put him through a light full body workout. he wont be sore as shit the next day, maybe even not at all, but just the fact that he went through something he hasn’t done, the muscles will get damaged and respond with hypertrophy. ugly sentence.
now take a seasoned olympic wrestler. this guy is training 3 - 5 hours a day 6 times a weak with punishing workouts; calisthenics, plyos, drills, conditioning, etc. will he experience DOMS everyday? Will he continuously hypertrophy? No, he will not. change his life. put him through charles poliquin’s toughest hypertrophy program. i bet my pinky toe that he will get sore. and i bet he will gain weight. he will hypertrophy.

Realize that DOMS is nothing more than an expression of pain-good or bad depending on the person.

If person A goes and lifts and does significant damage to his muscles, and gets DOMS… and than recovers correctly, there will be growth.

If person A goes and lifts and does a much less degree of damage to his muscles (but still creates enough), and does not get DOMS…and still recovers correctly, there will still be growth.

DOMS has not direct bearing on whether or not growth will occur. Growth will occur only if a stimulus- how ever small or large it may be- occurs to damage muscle AND then correct recovery is achieved.

So is soreness necessary for growth?

I would say no.[/quote]

good point. i guess its more of, if you are sore, you caused enough damage to the muscles… which is not always good. but when i squat or dead heavy, i know what to expect. my ass is gonna hurt. my lower back will be slightly stiff. honestly, if my legs dont hurt the next day, i get surprised and try to find a reason why its not sore. lol. im in a rush so later for now.

51

For me, i am unsure if muscle soreness equates to the amount of muscle damage.

I do a lot of volume and even when i include shocking such as strip sets for exercises like bench, i really dont get sore. Just to clarify what soreness means to me as some are describing it differently, i might have a “slight” soreness but its nothing that “kills my ass”.

I think there is a tolerance that is built as far as soreness for some of us; or at least for me. I guess i am unsure if somebody should measure the effectiveness of a workout or even how much muscle damage the workout did on how sore you are after the workout.

52

[quote]ds77 wrote:
For me, i am unsure if muscle soreness equates to the amount of muscle damage.

I do a lot of volume and even when i include shocking such as strip sets for exercises like bench, i really dont get sore. Just to clarify what soreness means to me as some are describing it differently, i might have a “slight” soreness but its nothing that “kills my ass”.

I think there is a tolerance that is built as far as soreness for some of us; or at least for me. I guess i am unsure if somebody should measure the effectiveness of a workout or even how much muscle damage the workout did on how sore you are after the workout.[/quote]

I almost guarantee if you take a small break from lifting and start up again you will get sore. Right now your just used to the pain, your still breaking down the muscles.

53

[quote]shizen wrote:
ds77 wrote:
For me, i am unsure if muscle soreness equates to the amount of muscle damage.

I do a lot of volume and even when i include shocking such as strip sets for exercises like bench, i really dont get sore. Just to clarify what soreness means to me as some are describing it differently, i might have a “slight” soreness but its nothing that “kills my ass”.

I think there is a tolerance that is built as far as soreness for some of us; or at least for me. I guess i am unsure if somebody should measure the effectiveness of a workout or even how much muscle damage the workout did on how sore you are after the workout.

I almost guarantee if you take a small break from lifting and start up again you will get sore. Right now your just used to the pain, your still breaking down the muscles. [/quote]

I agree; that is what i was trying to say.i know i am still breaking down the muscles even though i am not sore.

And you are correct; if i take time off; i get sore for the first few workouts; but then i dont anymore; but i know its still breaking down the muscles even after the first few workouts.

54

How can I increase growth in my Calves?

55

[quote]NeoSymbol07 wrote:
How can I increase growth in my Calves?[/quote]

atg squats, deadlifts, really calves are a very small muscle. The way they will look bigger is by having a very low body fat % same with abs in a sense.

56

[quote]NeoSymbol07 wrote:
How can I increase growth in my Calves?[/quote]

Try doing some sets of “forum searches”. :wink:

As for the original topic, I personally don’t think that soreness is “necessary” for growth, but I do agree with others who have said that it’s often a good indicator of whether or not you did enough damage to the muscles to cause a growth response.

Generally I will be sore a day or two later if I push myself hard enough in the gym to force my muscles to adapt. That said, there are certain muscles (for me it’s my lats and forearms) which seem to almost never get sore, yet grow as well if not better than other muscles that get sore more often. I know several others have mentioned this phenomenon in the past.

Now why this happens I can’t say for sure. But it does lend some credence to the idea that soreness is not absolutely necessary for growth.

57

The only soreness that “kills my ass” is when i have a lay off… otherwise i really dont get a “kill my ass” soreness. Do i have soreness, yes; but its not anything to compared to what i will call the “doms” after i have layed off for more than a month…is there a difference between doms when you are starting out and soreness that is very minor…and i mean minor.

Just to clarify, with doms i can barely walk… but with what i call “very” minimum soreness i can walk around all day and do every day activities…still think soreness is a poor’indicator for my body.

58

The only time I really get any signifigant soreness is when I incorporate a lot more eccentric training in my routine or massively up the volume.

59

[quote]shizen wrote:
NeoSymbol07 wrote:
How can I increase growth in my Calves?

atg squats, deadlifts, really calves are a very small muscle. The way they will look bigger is by having a very low body fat % same with abs in a sense. [/quote]

Calf raises.

60

[quote]ds77 wrote:
The only soreness that “kills my ass” is when i have a lay off… otherwise i really dont get a “kill my ass” soreness. Do i have soreness, yes; but its not anything to compared to what i will call the “doms” after i have layed off for more than a month…is there a difference between doms when you are starting out and soreness that is very minor…and i mean minor.

Just to clarify, with doms i can barely walk… but with what i call “very” minimum soreness i can walk around all day and do every day activities…still think soreness is a poor’indicator for my body.[/quote]

But see, now you’re making up terms. Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS) simply means that you have muscle soreness that appears a day or two later (is delayed). The magnitude of that soreness doesn’t change whether or not it’s DOMS. If you get sore, even just a little, then your workout resulted in DOMS.