Nathan, your pictures don’t exactly lend you the credibility to call anyone ‘nerds’ for disagreeing.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Is muscle soreness necessary for growth?
I say yes. Absolutely, indisputably, necessarily so.
Muscle soreness is an indication of breakdown. Without having been broken down, the stimulus for growth simply does not exist.
I see no alternative explanation to this which conforms to basic physiology.
I am a personal trainer and I tell my clients that DOMS is a fantastic way to judge the effectiveness of workouts.
I would like to know if anyone disagrees with me and if they can produce a credible, opposing argument.
Let’s get it on.
Your statement is too generalised.
I agree with you, but I would say that your muscles still grow even though there is no DOMS, however, I found my muscles grow more if there is more DOMS.
For example: When I train calves and get excruciating DOMS and I experience this over a few sessions, I notice definite growth. Not so much when they are less painful after I train them.
The same when I train chest, however I never get very painful DOMS here, just DOMS that makes it tender, and I still see growth from that. Yet there have been times when it wasn’t sore at all over 2-3 weeks and it still grew slightly, yet not as much as when I experienced DOMS.
If you work the muscle hard enough it may get sore. IF YOU DON’T WORK THE MUSCLE HARD ENOUGH IT MAY GET SORE.
I don’t agree that it is necessary but I think it is by far the best indicator if your goal is hypertrophy. Whenever I train and do not end up sore for the next day (or at least tender as someone put it) or several days I ONLY get stronger.
This happens time and time again my body just seems to get more efficient at moving the weight through what must be improvements to my CNS, even with isolation work.
I also think the backlash against machines is too harsh. I tend to start a workout with heavy weights on a machine (4-6rm working to 1rm), going on to lots of sets of medium free weights (10-15rm) and ending up with light reps on another machine (or sometimes dumbbells) to really fatigue the muscle.
I find that machines such as the pec deck or at least isolation exercises with free weights are really essential for stimulating growth and I always end the workout with an isolation exercise and really beast it out until I can barely move a light weight.
I would say that muscle soreness is NOT necessary for growth- and here is why.
DOMS is a component of exercise induced muscle damage (EIMD). EIMD also includes an acute inflammatory response, creatine kinase release, and stimulation of protein synthesis.
Regeneration of damaged muscles is done via growth hormone, IGF 1 activating satellite cells, protein synthesis and specific myogenic factors. This is what makes you bigger.
DOMS specifically is the perception of pain via EIMD. The perception of pain is a completely subjective phenomenon and is different not only between different individuals, but also within the same individual.
That being said: Yes when you have DOMS you have technically created some type of muscle damage, enough that the nocioceptors (pain cells)and pain fibers have recognized it and is basically telling you to back off for a bit.
BUT, noting that pain is a subjective phenomenon and various factors effect your own perception of pain (endorphins, enkephalins, pain gate control) you will not always feel the same amount of pain even if the painful stimulus is increased.
So, that being said, you can and do damage your muscles to an extent that does not overload your pain cells and fibers. But just because you don’t FEEL the pain, does not mean that regeneration of the damaged myofibers is not occurring.
all of that information to conjure up a weak conclusion.
GH, satellite cells, creatine kinase… are activated from a specific type of lifting. needless to say, this actually contradicts the point you’re trying to make. without proper stimuli the body has no reason to utilize or produce anabolic hormones in the body. and DOMS , as you mentioned, is a component of EIMD, which triggers a hormonal, or rather endocrine response in the body. the nocioceptors works in conjunction with DOMS. Hence, one can assume that DOMS are a good indicator of sufficient muscle damage to trigger growth in the body. and this is not to say that DOMS are a necessity in growth.
[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
[/quote]
No GH is not activated by a “specific type of lifting”, but by strenous activity- among other things. Satellite cells are also not activated by a “specific type of lifting” but by IGF 1. And creatine kinase is not “activated” at all, but rather is released as a product of muscle break down.
I do not believe that this is “needless to say”: please say how anything I wrote contradicts my own point. Also, when did I ever write that exercise is not a proper stimulus for anabolic hormone release?
Nocioceptors DO NOT work in conjunction with DOMS. Nocioceptors transmit nerve signals to the thalamus. DOMS is a perception of pain. The perception of pain can be altered, but that does not mean that the painful stimulus itself has been taken away.
If you read my post carefully you may learn that I never said that DOMS is not a good indicator of muscle damage. In fact I said that it is a component of the whole muscle damage process. What I did say though, is that muscle soreness is not NECESSARY for muscle growth.
[quote]yogaroots wrote:
If you work the muscle hard enough it may get sore. IF YOU DON’T WORK THE MUSCLE HARD ENOUGH IT MAY GET SORE. [/quote]
If the goal of training is to get sore, your missing the point. You can squat the bar for 100’s of reps but does that guarentee you growth? Maybe, but it will be as functional as a 1 legged stool. I think what people should focus on more is training density when it comes to getting more mass.
That is a lot of misinformation Zeus. Are you aware the GH secretion is enhanced by starvation?
Point is, there are very few definitives, if any, when it comes to hormones.
Varanid wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
GH, satellite cells, creatine kinase… are activated from a specific type of lifting.
Varanid wrote:No GH is not activated by a “specific type of lifting”, but by strenous activity- among other things. Satellite cells are also not activated by a “specific type of lifting” but by IGF 1. And creatine kinase is not “activated” at all, but rather is released as a product of muscle break down.
ZN: GH is triggered by a number of things, but what im talking about is heavy loading or volume training. I remember reading an article from T-Nation that starving yourself actually increases the production of GH as well. It’s supposed to be a survival mechanism to, you know, survive. Well, satellite cells are activated when there is any kind of muscle damage. It’s also a touchy subject because i dont think biologists even know the full extent of satellite cells. should make some noise in the medical industry though… soon enough. creatine kinase. rapid production of atp from the adp it stores. atp generally used up during specific movements. such as sprinting, powerlifting, and other explosive movements.
needless to say, this actually contradicts the point you’re trying to make. without proper stimuli the body has no reason to utilize or produce anabolic hormones in the body.
Varanid wrote:I do not believe that this is “needless to say”: please say how anything I wrote contradicts my own point. Also, when did I ever write that exercise is not a proper stimulus for anabolic hormone release?
ZN: you never said that, and i never said you did. you’re argument was that you don’t need to get sore to grow. i dont completely disagree with you. im just saying that being sore may be a decent indicator of efficient damage to induce hormonal response. sorry, didn’t mean to downplay, just some gamesmenship i guess. lol??
and DOMS , as you mentioned, is a component of EIMD, which triggers a hormonal, or rather endocrine response in the body. the nocioceptors works in conjunction with DOMS.
Varanid wrote:Nocioceptors DO NOT work in conjunction with DOMS. Nocioceptors transmit nerve signals to the thalamus. DOMS is a perception of pain. The perception of pain can be altered, but that does not mean that the painful stimulus itself has been taken away.
ZN: is what gives you doms. muscle breakdown causes inflammation and along with heat, its what nocioceptors neurally transmit. there’s other possible things that cause doms, but inflammation is one of the big ones. and these receptors do adapt to pain, explaining why experienced lifters might experience less doms than new trainees.
Hence, one can assume that DOMS are a good indicator of sufficient muscle damage to trigger growth in the body. and this is not to say that DOMS are a necessity in growth.
Varanid wrote:If you read my post carefully you may learn that I never said that DOMS is not a good indicator of muscle damage. In fact I said that it is a component of the whole muscle damage process. What I did say though, is that muscle soreness is not NECESSARY for muscle growth.
ZN: i might be weakening my point but i can see how both can be true. for example, take a 30 yr old male who has never worked out in his life. put him through a light full body workout. he wont be sore as shit the next day, maybe even not at all, but just the fact that he went through something he hasn’t done, the muscles will get damaged and respond with hypertrophy. ugly sentence.
now take a seasoned olympic wrestler. this guy is training 3 - 5 hours a day 6 times a weak with punishing workouts; calisthenics, plyos, drills, conditioning, etc. will he experience DOMS everyday? Will he continuously hypertrophy? No, he will not. change his life. put him through charles poliquin’s toughest hypertrophy program. i bet my pinky toe that he will get sore. and i bet he will gain weight. he will hypertrophy.
I can’t put any science into this, but I can input what little personal experience I do have.
I rarely get sore in any parts of my upper body and am still progressing steadily.
My calves are almost guaranteed to be sore, sometimes very, after being hit hard and I find them to be the most difficult body part to progress. This may have something to do with them being used much more on a daily basis than most of the upper body, but that’s how it’s been for me.
In conclusion, soreness has been no direct indicator of growth for me.
[quote]Artem wrote:
I can’t put any science into this, but I can input what little personal experience I do have.
I rarely get sore in any parts of my upper body and am still progressing steadily.
My calves are almost guaranteed to be sore, sometimes very, after being hit hard and I find them to be the most difficult body part to progress. This may have something to do with them being used much more on a daily basis than most of the upper body, but that’s how it’s been for me.
In conclusion, soreness has been no direct indicator of growth for me. [/quote]
well calves really can’t get that big, while your ENTIRE UPPER BODY can gain quite a bit of size. So comparing such a small muscle as the calves with your entire upper body is ridiculous.
im going to try to predict some things about you artem.
- you are a beginner
- you dont use 3 x 12 (dont hate)
- you dont focus on eccentric portions of the lift/or you dont do eccentric training
- your idea of progress is that you are more comfortable with lifting and you are getting stronger. you might have gained a bit of weight (less than 10lbs) since you started
- you dont do explosive olympic lifts
- you dont or rarely exceed 90% your max or PR effort. if you do, you dont or cant do upto three repititions.
- you dont know your PR for most of your lifts
none of these predictions have any solid scientific backings to it. there might be, but i couldn’t tell ya where to look. these are predictions solely on my experience and my clients’, but just like the first guy i described in my post, you could be that guy.
on the other hand, i can be completely wrong.
you can be training very intelligently, following a set curriculum with a solid routine and an excellent diet. you might be doing 10 - 20 minutes of light myofascial release and or stretching after each session. you also progress your weights slowly but steadily.
this is how i talk when i dont sleep btw.
I have generally felt that soreness is a good indicator of the damage caused by a workout. And assuming diet and rest is optimal: growth. However, I do not believe that soreness is necessary for growth. My side delts are never sore, but that isn’t to say they haven’t grown.
[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
im going to try to predict some things about you artem.
- you are a beginner
- you dont use 3 x 12 (dont hate)
- you dont focus on eccentric portions of the lift/or you dont do eccentric training
- your idea of progress is that you are more comfortable with lifting and you are getting stronger. you might have gained a bit of weight (less than 10lbs) since you started
- you dont do explosive olympic lifts
- you dont or rarely exceed 90% your max or PR effort. if you do, you dont or cant do upto three repititions.
- you dont know your PR for most of your lifts
[/quote]
whats wrong with numbers
5,6,7? if youre training for size then why is training for strength so important? if you want size train for size, if you want strength train for strength. unless youre a powerlifter that shit doesnt matter at all. all 1RMs are good for is bragging rights and in the world of bodybuilding your body is what does the bragging not 1RM’s.
on the orginal topic though. if you want to be 100% super-technical then as you said, going up weight and reps isnt an indication of growth because the only way you can be sure of growth is to see growth, well in that case DOMS isnt an indicator either for the same reasons.
DOMS IS an indicator that youre growing, so is going up in weight&reps. if you lifted 100lbs for 8 reps one week then do it for 12 the next week and do it for 15 the week after then by inductive logic youre getting your muscle bigger especially because unless youre lifting in the 1-4 rep range youre primiarily making muscular gains as opposed to neural strength gains.
its just silly to say that increasing weight/reps is not directly responsible for muscle growth. if you want to know if a muscle is growing you have to look at what is known to make a muscle grow. does increasing weight/reps make a muscle grow? well i dont know but theres a shitload of bodybuilders who got bigger that way and only that way.
i still think DOMS is a good indicator of growth, it shows youve trained your muscle in a new way. now if youre training in a way that is proven to increase muscle size (increasing weight/reps) and you keep getting DOMS by increasing your weight/reps then it is quite logical to assume that yes DOMS in regards to a tried and proven hypertrophy routine IS linked to muscle growth. you dont need any fancy scientific studies or big words, its common sense and logic.
For me, unless i have a long lay off, its really difficult to get sore. My muscles tend to get weak if i over do it; but not sore. For example, after i train my legs, my legs might feel weak trying to go up a set of steps.
I can have a shitty workout with shitty nutrition and get real sore. I can have an awesome workout with awesome nutrition and get less sore. The awesome workout with awesome nutrition will induce more growth despite being less sore.
[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Nathan, your pictures don’t exactly lend you the credibility to call anyone ‘nerds’ for disagreeing.[/quote]
Based on what I’ve seen from his log, he is the epitome of someone who has been lifting for years without much progress as far as his physique. If I remember correctly, he’s pretty strong for his size but he doesn’t even look as if he lifts.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I can have a shitty workout with shitty nutrition and get real sore. I can have an awesome workout with awesome nutrition and get less sore. The awesome workout with awesome nutrition will induce more growth despite being less sore.[/quote]
Couldnt have said it better myself:)