jjdude has some points on the differences in akido. while i have little experience in it, i finished reading Angry White Pygamas, which is about a writer who does the Tokyo riot police Akido course. he details the split pretty well in there…also describes some of the techniques, and how they’re based off swordsmanship.
Seagal can shoot…i caught a few episodes of Lawman, and while think it’s a stupid show, he was shooting the tips off matches one day at the range. he was frustrated because he couldn’t light them, and said he wasn’t shooting very well… that show’s editing is pretty goofy, and Seagal is kind of a dork, but he does seem intent on helping people, and the comunity is drawn to him in a positive way.
intersting story about Gene LeBell and Seagal…i suspect that Judo Gene has more pull in Hollywood anyway, since he’s been in damn near everything (to include Reno 911), and been around for a while.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I was under the impression it was Gene LeBell himself that choked out Seagal on a film set.
[/quote]
I have heard multiple stories about it and each one crazier than the one before it. The most logical one I have heard was Seagal was talking some crap about how he couldnt be choked out because he could control his breathing or blood flow because of his ki. He sat down and proceeded to get choked out.
I have also heard it was a full blown fight and Lebell kicked his ass and choked him out but that doesnt sound likely seems he still works in Hollywood. Choking out a star of a movie in a fight isnt gonna get you more work in Hollywood. [/quote]
The fullest version I’ve read, which stemmed from a thread posted on Bullshido some time ago was that on the set of Under Seige Segal had been boasting and bragging about his overall greatness to the stuntmen and the subject of chi was brought up. Steven proclaimed that he had a greater than normal control over his chi and could thus control blood flow throughout his body or some shit. Gene Lebell who was nearby (as it was his stunt crew) caught wind of this, approached him and called him out; assuring Steven that he could in fact choke him out. Steven apparently never even knew who Gene was and so stepped up to the challenge.
Now Gene didn’t like Steven. Apparently he was a total dick to Gene’s stunt crew, overly rough with the manhandling during scenes, so when Gene got this opportunity he got stuck right in but Steven immediately tapped and said it wasn’t fair as he wasn’t ready. Gene backed off and told him fine, let me know when you ARE ready. Steven composed himself, told Gene “ok” and as Gene went to apply the choke Steven reached down and tried to grab Gene by the balls, to which Gene backed up with him, still applying the hold… until his lights went out, which apparently happened as quickly as any other mortal man. Also, as sometimes happens, Steven pissed and shat his panties and considering he was such a dick about the whole thing Gene and co dragged him across the room and stuffed him into a locker.
When Steven came to he was furious and immediately had Gene and his crew fired and told them they’d never work in the movies again. I don’t know how it came around exactly but the threat of publicly coming forth with the story saw the team re-hired by the producers however on the proviso that no one involved publicly recounted the tale. Of course it came out anyway in a tabloid of some sort…
however, it is just a story. Bottom line is only the people who were there can fully comment on what truly happened. But having read that story and listened to a radio interview on it (will try to find both these sources and link them back here for anyone interested) I tend to believe that there’s at least some truth in it.
Steven was acting like a dick (not uncommon for him apparently if you consider all the rumours), got choked out, and continued to be a dick.
Note I am making no comment on his Aikido ability or ability to train others, nor indeed his firearms skills which he is also ‘supposedly’ highly regarded for.
edit - appears the film was Out For Justice, not Under Siege, my bad.
Youtube interview with Jon Wertheim on the subject
and if Jon Wertheim is writing about it you can pretty much guarantee there’s some truth to it, considering neither party has come forth to refute or confirm the story.
[/quote]
Nice interview, I’ve also read that Judo Gene beat Bruce Lee on the set of the Green Hornet back in 1966. LeBell was quite a bit younger then as well.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
No, because of the examples that you just gave. What you are saying is that those practitioners have actually won major fights. Where are all the mma Aikido champions? (Crickets chirping). Okay how about all the high level mma Aikido fighters? (more crickets chirping).
See what I’m saying?
[/quote]
Well, if what Anderson and Machida are saying has any truth to it; two fighters just won fights using Aikido (or maybe just an aikido principle/tactic), one of which was a title fight.
Just like Machida and Pettis are not purely karate/capoeira fighters (not is pretty much any successful fighter in MMA today purely any “style”) but only utilize principles/techniques from katate/capoeira; according to Anderson and Machida they utilized an aikido technique/principle to win their last fights and KO their opponent.
See what I’m saying?
Like I said, some have more to offer from an MMA perspective than others. What I’m saying is not to completely close your mind to other systems which are outside “the norm”.
First, I never said that everything that every martial art out there teaches works. Dillman’s pressure point system is absolute crap. It’s been debunked time and time again. What I’m saying is that there are tactics/principles in some arts which are not often trained in for MMA (i.e. fencing, JKD/JLFS, Aikido perhaps, etc…) which are effective as well and could potentially add to a fighter’s effectiveness.
I agree with you that the majority of time should be spent practicing skills from the “core” skill sets. But, we are not talking about a couple of white belts here who are just starting out. We are talking about 1 current champion (and top P4P contender) and one former champion. These guys can afford to spend some time experimenting and researching other skill sets/systems.
If they say that they have found something in Aikido from training with Seagal that has made their front kicks more effective, I have no real reason not to believe them.
Name me one Pure boxer who has ever held an MMA title? Does that mean that boxing is a worthless skill set? No, clearly it doesn’t. Now, name me one successful MMA fighter who utilizes boxing techniques/principles. Pretty easy. Now, name me one successful MMA fighter who has utilized an Aikido principle/technique effectively. I can name two; Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida. By that line of reasoning it seems like Aikido might not be totally worthless after all.
That could also be true. But we are talking about two world champions (or at least former world champs) here. I don’t think they would put their reputations on the line and lie about their success like that. Sure, they might gain some benefit from associating themselves with Seagal (although, from a lot of the responses in this thread it would seem like the opposite would actually be true) in the short term, but if it came out that they were lying then it could come back to hurt their credibility.
[quote]
Come now…
Do you honestly think that Steven Seagal taught Machida, a life long Karataka champion how to do a front kick?
If you do I have some property in Florida that I’d like to sell you sight unseen.[/quote]
People probably said the same thing about Joe Lewis, Mike Stone and Chuck Norris giving Bruce Lee credit for their victories back in the 60’s. “Come on; do you truly believe that this Kung Fu guy taught Joe Lewis (who was already a 2 time champ before meeing Lee), a student of Eizo Shimabukuro, how to throw a side kick or forward hand strike?” Yet, this is exactly what happened; or more accurately, he taught him a better/more effective way of throwing those techniques. The same thing could be true of Seagal teaching Machida a more effective method of throwing a front kick.
Well, if what Anderson and Machida are saying has any truth to it; two fighters just won fights using Aikido (or maybe just an aikido principle/tactic), one of which was a title fight. [/quote]
Well, that brings us back to whether it was legitimate to begin with. I still think it was more of relationships built of convenience. Each wanting to associate their name with the other. As I’ve said I highly doubt that Seagal taugh Machida the high front kick. Machida is a Karate champion. So my doubts run deep.
(Shrugs) I’ll stick to my original point. The more time you spend with things that you know work the better you’ll be.
Glad we agree on this. And there is a lot more crap out there that masquarades as good martial arts.
In theory you’re correct. But in practice as I’ve said there are so many hours in a day and a finite amount of engergy in even the most well trained mma fighter. I say spend it doing what you know works. If a technique appears on the scene that has never been seen and looks promising sure you might try it out in practice. But I wouldn’t spend an inordinate amount of time with it would you?
That’s reasonable.
Well first of all let’s look at this reasonably. Every fighter has utilized (or tried) boxing skills. And in 18 or so years of the UFC there has only been two claims of Aikido techniques helping a fighter. And as I said that is very questionable as the technique was a high front kick. A Karate move. But even if we give it to Seagal and say he taught both fighters the high front kick (eye roll) that’s twice in 18 years! Not exactly a stellar sign that Aikido is helpful in mma. Fair enough?
[quote]
I accept the fact that it could have happened. But, I actually think there is a higher degree of possibility that there is an association going on here. Seagal wants his name associated with mma and the fighters want their name associated with Seagal, everyone wins. I am not a Seagal hater, I just don’t think that it went down the way it’s being explained.
That could also be true. But we are talking about two world champions (or at least former world champs) here. I don’t think they would put their reputations on the line and lie about their success like that. Sure, they might gain some benefit from associating themselves with Seagal (although, from a lot of the responses in this thread it would seem like the opposite would actually be true) in the short term, but if it came out that they were lying then it could come back to hurt their credibility.[/quote]
First of all they may not be lying. Let me offer you up a scenario and see if that is reasonable to you. Their manager gets in touch with Seagal, or vice versa. Seagal hangs around the training camp. Gets involved enough to be shown on Youtube “teaching” The champs something. Naturally both Silva and Machida are in awe of the movie star. And at some point Seagal says something to the effect “you ought to use this high front kick” and they both say yeah we should. That I could buy. But to say that he “taught” them the kick? Um…I just don’t buy it. And Silva and Machida are far too classy to make Seagal look bad so they don’t refute it.
[quote]
Come now…
Do you honestly think that Steven Seagal taught Machida, a life long Karataka champion how to do a front kick?
If you do I have some property in Florida that I’d like to sell you sight unseen.
People probably said the same thing about Joe Lewis, Mike Stone and Chuck Norris giving Bruce Lee credit for their victories back in the 60’s. “Come on; do you truly believe that this Kung Fu guy taught Joe Lewis (who was already a 2 time champ before meeing Lee), a student of Eizo Shimabukuro, how to throw a side kick or forward hand strike?” Yet, this is exactly what happened; or more accurately, he taught him a better/more effective way of throwing those techniques. The same thing could be true of Seagal teaching Machida a more effective method of throwing a front kick.
Stranger things have happened. [/quote]
Oh I agree stranger things have happened. But you’re example is almost a duplicate of the Seagal scenario. Bruce Lee big time action star teaches a couple of karatakas a technique or two. Everyone gains by that association just as they did with Seagal.
I guess that anything is possible my friend, but I guess I’ve lived long enough to be a skeptic.
Nice talking with you Sento.
By the way have you ever seen that Tony Blaur protective gear in action?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Well, that brings us back to whether it was legitimate to begin with. I still think it was more of relationships built of convenience. Each wanting to associate their name with the other. As I’ve said I highly doubt that Seagal taugh Machida the high front kick. Machida is a Karate champion. So my doubts run deep.
[/quote]
True, we really don’t know the legitimacy of the statements to begin with; only Silva and Machida do. I for one haven’t made up my mind yet, but I seem to be more willing to entertain the idea that they were sincere/true than you. Which is fine by me.
I’m not going to argue with that statement, nor was my point that MMA fighters should stop spending the majority of their time training what has been proven to work in MMA and instead spend it training in other arts, searching for those little nuggets of principles/techniques which might also be effective/helpful.
I was only warning against the tendency to close one’s mind to the possibility that other arts might have those nuggets and possibly miss out should someone offer to teach you such nuggets. Of course, even then you have to pressure test these new principles/techniques to see if they actually work. If they do though, I see no reason why you woudn’t want to add them to your arsenal or give credit to their source.
Also true.
It would somewhat depend on how promising it looked to be in practice. If it say greatly increased the frequency with which I landed a certain technique, or was able to deal with a certain technique, then I probably would spend a decent amount of time on it. If it was only
marginally effective I would spend less time on it. And if it was mostly ineffective I might store it away in my toolbox for a rainy day, but probably not spend much time on it.
Yes fair enough. I’m not suggesting that fighters stop training Muay Thai in favor of Aikido or anything like that. Just saying that perhaps Seagal/Aikido knows a method of throwing or setting up that high front kick which could be helpful/effective. Maybe that’s the one little nugget of knowledge that he has to offer an MMA fighter.
The more you are exposed to multiple arts the more you realize that most of the combat oriented ones contain many of the same techniques. A front kick is a very common kick and can be found in many different systems because it is such a natural kick. So, I’m not suggesting that Silva and Machida didn’t know how to throw a front kick until Seagal came on the scene. What I’m suggesting (and I think they’re saying) is that he showed them a way to throw it more effectively. That I can believe because I’ve trained with several people who have done the same thing for me and had someone else do the same thing for them.
But I’m not saying that your scenario is unreasonable or necessarily wrong. Like I said before, we may never really know the truth of their statements unless Seagal starts training other fighters and they start to be known for front kick KO’s to the head. Or perhaps Silva and Machida never again land that kick effectively.
Which is precisely why I brought it up.
To this day Lewis, Norris, and Stone give Lee tons of credit for helping them to all win multiple world titles and improve their fighting skills notably. These are all men who proved themselves in the ring, and proved Lee’s principles in the ring as well.
Nothing wrong with some healthy skepticism.
[quote]
Nice talking with you Sento.
By the way have you ever seen that Tony Blaur protective gear in action?
Thanks.[/quote]
You too. I actually haven’t seen it in action (in person anyhow) or tried it. I’ve seen the Red Man gear in action and it is very effective, but the High Gear (Blauer’s) is less bulky and less restrictive of movement.
I’ll ask Shihan Walt his opinion on it (as I’m sure he’s both seen it and used it) and let you know what he says. Are you looking to get some protective gear and fishing to see what the best stuff is? If so, what types of training/scenarios are you going to be training for (this might influence which type of gear would be the best choice).
I have to say this is really disappointing reading.
Me and my boyz have never payed no never mind to that MMA UFC crap at all.
Then i readed where two MMA dudes, some crip named Silva and Machida were hangin straight wit my main movie man himself Steve F’in Seagal.
So we say “Hey we gotta chex out dis UFC BS”
We be buyin allllllllll the pay-per-peeks.
Sendin for T-shirts and mousepads.
And just got plane tickets for South America to roll up on our new South American brothers.
And now i reads where this Silva n Machida punks are hangin with my man Steve ONLY because their manager told them to. So that fly Americans like yours truely will become new fans.
Anyone know where i can find that manager punkass???
[quote]LBramble wrote:
I have to say this is really disappointing reading.
Me and my boyz have never payed no never mind to that MMA UFC crap at all.
Then i readed where two MMA dudes, some crip named Silva and Machida were hangin straight wit my main movie man himself Steve F’in Seagal.
So we say “Hey we gotta chex out dis UFC BS”
We be buyin allllllllll the pay-per-peeks.
Sendin for T-shirts and mousepads.
And just got plane tickets for South America to roll up on our new South American brothers.
And now i reads where this Silva n Machida punks are hangin with my man Steve ONLY because their manager told them to. So that fly Americans like yours truely will become new fans.
Anyone know where i can find that manager punkass???
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I was under the impression it was Gene LeBell himself that choked out Seagal on a film set.
[/quote]
I have heard multiple stories about it and each one crazier than the one before it. The most logical one I have heard was Seagal was talking some crap about how he couldnt be choked out because he could control his breathing or blood flow because of his ki. He sat down and proceeded to get choked out.
I have also heard it was a full blown fight and Lebell kicked his ass and choked him out but that doesnt sound likely seems he still works in Hollywood. Choking out a star of a movie in a fight isnt gonna get you more work in Hollywood. [/quote]
The fullest version I’ve read, which stemmed from a thread posted on Bullshido some time ago was that on the set of Under Seige Segal had been boasting and bragging about his overall greatness to the stuntmen and the subject of chi was brought up. Steven proclaimed that he had a greater than normal control over his chi and could thus control blood flow throughout his body or some shit. Gene Lebell who was nearby (as it was his stunt crew) caught wind of this, approached him and called him out; assuring Steven that he could in fact choke him out. Steven apparently never even knew who Gene was and so stepped up to the challenge.
Now Gene didn’t like Steven. Apparently he was a total dick to Gene’s stunt crew, overly rough with the manhandling during scenes, so when Gene got this opportunity he got stuck right in but Steven immediately tapped and said it wasn’t fair as he wasn’t ready. Gene backed off and told him fine, let me know when you ARE ready. Steven composed himself, told Gene “ok” and as Gene went to apply the choke Steven reached down and tried to grab Gene by the balls, to which Gene backed up with him, still applying the hold… until his lights went out, which apparently happened as quickly as any other mortal man. Also, as sometimes happens, Steven pissed and shat his panties and considering he was such a dick about the whole thing Gene and co dragged him across the room and stuffed him into a locker.
When Steven came to he was furious and immediately had Gene and his crew fired and told them they’d never work in the movies again. I don’t know how it came around exactly but the threat of publicly coming forth with the story saw the team re-hired by the producers however on the proviso that no one involved publicly recounted the tale. Of course it came out anyway in a tabloid of some sort…
however, it is just a story. Bottom line is only the people who were there can fully comment on what truly happened. But having read that story and listened to a radio interview on it (will try to find both these sources and link them back here for anyone interested) I tend to believe that there’s at least some truth in it.
Steven was acting like a dick (not uncommon for him apparently if you consider all the rumours), got choked out, and continued to be a dick.
Note I am making no comment on his Aikido ability or ability to train others, nor indeed his firearms skills which he is also ‘supposedly’ highly regarded for.
edit - appears the film was Out For Justice, not Under Siege, my bad.
Youtube interview with Jon Wertheim on the subject
and if Jon Wertheim is writing about it you can pretty much guarantee there’s some truth to it, considering neither party has come forth to refute or confirm the story.
[/quote]
Nice interview, I’ve also read that Judo Gene beat Bruce Lee on the set of the Green Hornet back in 1966. LeBell was quite a bit younger then as well.[/quote]
I’ve also read that Bruce Lee studied a little Judo under LeBell.
By the way have you ever seen that Tony Blaur protective gear in action?
Thanks.
I actually haven’t seen it in action (in person anyhow) or tried it. I’ve seen the Red Man gear in action and it is very effective, but the High Gear (Blauer’s) is less bulky and less restrictive of movement.
I’ll ask Shihan Walt his opinion on it (as I’m sure he’s both seen it and used it) and let you know what he says. Are you looking to get some protective gear and fishing to see what the best stuff is? If so, what types of training/scenarios are you going to be training for (this might influence which type of gear would be the best choice).[/quote]
Punching and kicking mostly with a few throws. Also, I’ve never heard of “Red Man gear” what’s taht all about?
The fullest version I’ve read, which stemmed from a thread posted on Bullshido some time ago was that on the set of Under Seige Segal had been boasting and bragging about his overall greatness to the stuntmen and the subject of chi was brought up. Steven proclaimed that he had a greater than normal control over his chi and could thus control blood flow throughout his body or some shit. Gene Lebell who was nearby (as it was his stunt crew) caught wind of this, approached him and called him out; assuring Steven that he could in fact choke him out. Steven apparently never even knew who Gene was and so stepped up to the challenge.
Now Gene didn’t like Steven. Apparently he was a total dick to Gene’s stunt crew, overly rough with the manhandling during scenes, so when Gene got this opportunity he got stuck right in but Steven immediately tapped and said it wasn’t fair as he wasn’t ready. Gene backed off and told him fine, let me know when you ARE ready. Steven composed himself, told Gene “ok” and as Gene went to apply the choke Steven reached down and tried to grab Gene by the balls, to which Gene backed up with him, still applying the hold… until his lights went out, which apparently happened as quickly as any other mortal man. Also, as sometimes happens, Steven pissed and shat his panties and considering he was such a dick about the whole thing Gene and co dragged him across the room and stuffed him into a locker.
When Steven came to he was furious and immediately had Gene and his crew fired and told them they’d never work in the movies again. I don’t know how it came around exactly but the threat of publicly coming forth with the story saw the team re-hired by the producers however on the proviso that no one involved publicly recounted the tale. Of course it came out anyway in a tabloid of some sort…
however, it is just a story. Bottom line is only the people who were there can fully comment on what truly happened. But having read that story and listened to a radio interview on it (will try to find both these sources and link them back here for anyone interested) I tend to believe that there’s at least some truth in it.
Steven was acting like a dick (not uncommon for him apparently if you consider all the rumours), got choked out, and continued to be a dick.
Note I am making no comment on his Aikido ability or ability to train others, nor indeed his firearms skills which he is also ‘supposedly’ highly regarded for.
edit - appears the film was Out For Justice, not Under Siege, my bad.
Youtube interview with Jon Wertheim on the subject
and if Jon Wertheim is writing about it you can pretty much guarantee there’s some truth to it, considering neither party has come forth to refute or confirm the story.
By the way have you ever seen that Tony Blaur protective gear in action?
Thanks.
I actually haven’t seen it in action (in person anyhow) or tried it. I’ve seen the Red Man gear in action and it is very effective, but the High Gear (Blauer’s) is less bulky and less restrictive of movement.
I’ll ask Shihan Walt his opinion on it (as I’m sure he’s both seen it and used it) and let you know what he says. Are you looking to get some protective gear and fishing to see what the best stuff is? If so, what types of training/scenarios are you going to be training for (this might influence which type of gear would be the best choice).[/quote]
Punching and kicking mostly with a few throws. Also, I’ve never heard of “Red Man gear” what’s taht all about?
Thanks,
Zeb[/quote]
I know you were talking to Sento, so feel free to ignore me, but I’ve trained a fair bit in the Blauer gear. IMO there is a progression starting with Red Man which is the most protective and the least mobile (I’ve never tried it). Next are FIST suits, which are a little less protective but a little slimmer and more mobile. Finally the Blauer High Gear, which is extremely mobile but not overly protective.
I love the High Gear personally due to its excellent mobility and the fact that you still feel blows landing and so generally react realistically during training. It just takes the edge off and alloys you to train more before you get really sore. If I have a complaint about it, it’s that the head gear gets ripped of during grappling from time to time and the eye piece fogs up if you’re running lots of drills back to back. Just my $.02. Again sorry to interrupt.
By the way have you ever seen that Tony Blaur protective gear in action?
Thanks.
I actually haven’t seen it in action (in person anyhow) or tried it. I’ve seen the Red Man gear in action and it is very effective, but the High Gear (Blauer’s) is less bulky and less restrictive of movement.
I’ll ask Shihan Walt his opinion on it (as I’m sure he’s both seen it and used it) and let you know what he says. Are you looking to get some protective gear and fishing to see what the best stuff is? If so, what types of training/scenarios are you going to be training for (this might influence which type of gear would be the best choice).[/quote]
Punching and kicking mostly with a few throws. Also, I’ve never heard of “Red Man gear” what’s taht all about?
Thanks,
Zeb[/quote]
I know you were talking to Sento, so feel free to ignore me, but I’ve trained a fair bit in the Blauer gear. IMO there is a progression starting with Red Man which is the most protective and the least mobile (I’ve never tried it). Next are FIST suits, which are a little less protective but a little slimmer and more mobile. Finally the Blauer High Gear, which is extremely mobile but not overly protective.
I love the High Gear personally due to its excellent mobility and the fact that you still feel blows landing and so generally react realistically during training. It just takes the edge off and alloys you to train more before you get really sore. If I have a complaint about it, it’s that the head gear gets ripped of during grappling from time to time and the eye piece fogs up if you’re running lots of drills back to back. Just my $.02. Again sorry to interrupt. [/quote]
Hey thanks a lot for chiming in, I appreciate your analysis of the various equipment. It’s a large expenditure and I want to make sure that I’m getting the proper equipment. You’ve been helpful.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
A super brawl with Steven Segal, Jean-Claude Vandamme, Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris and Bruce lee: who would win?[/quote]
trick question: Lemmy would win. Lemmy IS god.[/quote]
who is lemmy?
[/quote]
He is god. He already told you that.
And that video made me giggle. Machida never knew how to stuff a takedown and knee someone before he meet Seagal? I wanna see him try that knee against one of the better wrestlers in the 205lb division. Guaranteed he is on his back and getting smashed before that knee comes up or if it does it wont have anything behind it.
