[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
rib expansion is absolutely possible.
inhale. ribs expand. [/quote]
I dont have any position on this, but I think Perry Rader was one of the guys who first popularized the idea that rib cage expansion was possible. Stuart McRobert’s in his book “The Insider’s Tell-All Handbook on Weight-Training Technique” has some of the exercises to do them.
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
I know what COPD is. The issue is not whether it is a lung disesase (which it is). But a real world example of a “ribcage expanding”. Which is what the OP wanted to know was possible. I feel that based on observation during my medical carreer, I feel it is possible.
The likely hood that you could do it with weights, or how long it would take I have no idea. Just the simple fact is that the ribcage can be forced to expand regardless of the exact physiology behind COPD. [/quote]
That is like saying because the lungs expand when you inhale, that means that answers the OP’s question. You aren’t even making sense with this. If the lungs could function normally in a COPD patient, they wouldn’t have a “barrel chest”. Their chest isn’t expanded for any other reason than that their lungs aren’t flexible anymore, not because the rib cage suddenly distended on its own.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
ocn2000 wrote:
I know what COPD is. The issue is not whether it is a lung disesase (which it is). But a real world example of a “ribcage expanding”. Which is what the OP wanted to know was possible. I feel that based on observation during my medical carreer, I feel it is possible.
The likely hood that you could do it with weights, or how long it would take I have no idea. Just the simple fact is that the ribcage can be forced to expand regardless of the exact physiology behind COPD.
If I asked if spot reduction was possible would you give me an expose’ on liposuction? Rib cage expansion is also probably possible if you stuck an air compressor in somebody’s mouth and forced excessive air volume into their lungs, but you can’t really believe this is what he was asking.[/quote]
If you understand scientific reasoning you would understand that in order to answer a question, you have to find out if what is being asked is even possible, then reduce that down to real life scenarios. This is what I did. The first question I asked myself was “Is it possible to expand the ribcage period aside from inhaling or normal growth” I beleive the answer is yes. Why? because of my experienxce, both academically and hands on with COPD patients both living and deceased. Now that I have answered the fundemantal question of “is it possible” I ask how is it possible? In my example of COPD, it is from lung hyperexapnsion. I know proffesorX does not agree with that concept, but I read on another xray report today from a medical radiologist, and I give his opinion more credence. Now I draw my conclusion from my evidence. Rib cage expansion is possible from lung hyperexpansion and since the lungs could be hyperexpanded by breathing squats/pullovers, it could expand the ribcage. As I also stated above I don’t know how often or how long it would take, or it would work for everyone. How did you draw your conclusion?? Flip a coin, say what someone else said? At least I am giving the OP some information that I feel he can use and actaully spent time thinking about. And you?? If you would like a expose on liposuction, I can provide one. You sound like you need it.
Still waiting on those profile pics:)
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
Rib cage expansion is possible from lung hyperexpansion and since the lungs could be hyperexpanded by breathing squats/pullovers, it could expand the ribcage. As I also stated above I don’t know how often or how long it would take, or it would work for everyone. How did you draw your conclusion?? Flip a coin, say what someone else said? At least I am giving the OP some information that I feel he can use and actaully spent time thinking about. And you?? If you would like a expose on liposuction, I can provide one. You sound like you need it.
Still waiting on those profile pics:)[/quote]
This is not passive expansion of the lungs. I’ve written that several times now but apparently, you simply WANT to believe otherwise so you will. If that type of “expansion” occured in a healthy patient, they would probably end up eventually dying from lack of sufficient oxygen. Why? Because the only reason there is expansion is because the lungs can’t remain flexible like healthy lungs. It is NOT because the rib cage suddenly expanded and grew more cartilage to keep it that way.
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
<<< How did you draw your conclusion?? Flip a coin, say what someone else said? At least I am giving the OP some information that I feel he can use and actaully spent time thinking about. And you?? If you would like a expose on liposuction, I can provide one. You sound like you need it.
Still waiting on those profile pics:) [/quote]
If you found a conclusion in what I said then it casts doubt on your ability to read X-ray reports as well.
Your statement about establishing possibility before specific actuality is not without merit, but only holds water here if the mechanisms under which the premise of possibility is proven are demonstrably the same as the specific actuality in question.
Professor X, who is much more qualified than I says no. I don’t pretend to know one way or the other. I was only noting that demonstrating the general possibility of an effect does not necessarily prove the soundness of assuming any particular proposed cause.
You have now further explained your intended method which method I concede, in itself, is valid. My above statement was made in the absence of this clarification. The validity of the method still doesn’t establish your conclusion the truth or falsity of which I couldn’t really care less about because I have no designs on expanding my ribcage.
With the information available to me at the time I believed you were being unnecessarily argumentative about a question that wasn’t being asked.
I told you I’ll post pics when I’m ready which will be at least a few months away.
I don’t want to beleive or not beleive. I am only going on what I learned getting anyone of my several college degrees (BSN,BA,RN,CVPT,) and what I see, hear and do for a living (registered nurse and carviovascular perfusionist). The radiologist and pulmonologist I work with seem to agree with me. Which is where I am getting my info from. Other than your opinion, can you steer me to some other source that would corroborate you point? Honestly, I am open to any point of view that is valid.
^^^^^^ Who helped you write that ??
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
I don’t want to beleive or not beleive. I am only going on what I learned getting anyone of my several college degrees (BSN,BA,RN,CVPT,) and what I see, hear and do for a living (registered nurse and carviovascular perfusionist). The radiologist and pulmonologist I work with seem to agree with me. Which is where I am getting my info from. Other than your opinion, can you steer me to some other source that would corroborate you point? Honestly, I am open to any point of view that is valid. [/quote]
Ian King is one such source.
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_142metal
[quote]
Heavy Metal
Q&A with the King of Strength Coaches
by Ian King
Pullovers for a Big Chest?
Q: What do you think of dumbbell pullovers? Can they really expand the rib cage or is that just bunk? If it is bunk, are pullovers still worthwhile for other reasons?
A: Dumbbell pullovers? Nice exercise, but one I use sparingly. Can they expand the rib cage? That’s a question I’ve often asked myself. I haven’t seen anything to support this yet, but it would be nice if they could. It’s unlikely, however.
So are they still worthwhile for other reasons? Of course. Just because there isn’t likely a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow doesn’t mean the rainbow is useless! (Sorry, I can’t believe I just wrote that, either.) This exercise has its place but probably not as the cornerstone of your program. [/quote]
Here is another one.
The following article is from the August/September issue of Scientific Bodybuilding Journal.
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
I don’t want to beleive or not beleive. I am only going on what I learned getting anyone of my several college degrees (BSN,BA,RN,CVPT,) and what I see, hear and do for a living (registered nurse and carviovascular perfusionist). The radiologist and pulmonologist I work with seem to agree with me. Which is where I am getting my info from. Other than your opinion, can you steer me to some other source that would corroborate you point? Honestly, I am open to any point of view that is valid. [/quote]
I’m sorry, but when did you ask any of those professionals whether LIFTING WEIGHTS CAUSED PERMENANT DISTORTION OF THE RIB CAGE AND MADE IT LARGER? You mentioned a doctor stating that a patient’s rib cage was expanded due to a DISEASE. You are now relating that directly to HEALTHY LUNGS when the reason for the previous expansion was because THE LUNGS CAN’T MOVE OXYGEN VERY WELL CAUSING THE PERSON TO BE IN A PERPETUAL GRASP FOR AIR.
That is why I said your conclusion isn’t making sense. Lung diseases are LUNG issues. The rib cage reacts TO THE LUNGS BEING DISEASED. You can not relate that to healthy lungs and lifting weights.
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
^^^^^^ Who helped you write that ??[/quote]
If you’re asking me, I use greater and less than characters in place of periods to indicate an ellipsis because on higher resolution displays it’s easier to see.
I did not literally mean “^^^^”. I meant the whole post.
[quote]Petedacook wrote:
ocn2000 wrote:
I don’t want to beleive or not beleive. I am only going on what I learned getting anyone of my several college degrees (BSN,BA,RN,CVPT,) and what I see, hear and do for a living (registered nurse and carviovascular perfusionist). The radiologist and pulmonologist I work with seem to agree with me. Which is where I am getting my info from. Other than your opinion, can you steer me to some other source that would corroborate you point? Honestly, I am open to any point of view that is valid.
Ian King is one such source.
http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_142metal
Heavy Metal
Q&A with the King of Strength Coaches
by Ian King
Pullovers for a Big Chest?
Q: What do you think of dumbbell pullovers? Can they really expand the rib cage or is that just bunk? If it is bunk, are pullovers still worthwhile for other reasons?
A: Dumbbell pullovers? Nice exercise, but one I use sparingly. Can they expand the rib cage? That’s a question I’ve often asked myself. I haven’t seen anything to support this yet, but it would be nice if they could. It’s unlikely, however.
So are they still worthwhile for other reasons? Of course. Just because there isn’t likely a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow doesn’t mean the rainbow is useless! (Sorry, I can’t believe I just wrote that, either.) This exercise has its place but probably not as the cornerstone of your program.
Here is another one.
The following article is from the August/September issue of Scientific Bodybuilding Journal.
Myth Busters
Rib Cage and Hip Expansion
By Vince Martin, P.T.
Popular belief holds that, through proper exercise, one can change the volume of (expand) their ribcage. Usually, this is accomplished by the performance of two exercises used in combination. These exercises are the “breathing squat” and the cross-bench dumbbell pullover. Through diligent performance of these exercises, along with the continued performance of the remainder of the weight training routine, trainees would experience significant expansion of their thoracic cages. Or would they?
Here’s how the typical rib cage expansion routine went: First, the breathing squats were performed. The breathing squats, which entailed twenty-rep sets of squats with several deep breaths between each repetition were supersetted with cross bench dumbbell pullovers, which provided the “stretch” for the rib cage. The combined effect of the deep breathing and stretching supposedly provided the desired effect of enlargement. Now for the truth behind this concept.
The ribs are connected to the vertebral column at the rear of the body. They are formed to connect, or articulate, in a certain way and at a certain angle. In front, the ribs are connected via cartilage to the sternum, or breastbone. Various texts in the past have alluded to the “stretching” of the cartilage as the means by which the rib cage is expanded. First of all, the “length” of the cartilage by which the ribs are connected to the ribcage is unalterable. No amount of deep breathing or stretching can alter this predetermined attachment. Second, even if it were possible to alter the cartilaginous attachment of the ribs to the sternum, this would mean that the manner in which the ribs articulate with the vertebrae posteriorly would have to be altered. Again, there is a pre-set limit to which the ribs can correctly and functionally articulate with the vertebrae. Therefore, this cannot (and must not) be changed.
However, weight training can alter the skeletal structure. The points of attachment on the bones where the muscles connect actually enlarge slightly due to the forces exerted by the muscles at these attachments. This slight enlargement of the points of muscle attachment does not equate to any significant skeletal enlargement such as rib cage expansion.
So what provided this apparent rib cage enlargement? The answer is found in the word “apparent”. The rib cage did not expand. Rather, as a function of the training routine in general, the musculature of the trunk became developed. This resulted in a much “thicker” look. The trainees of old simply attributed their results to the wrong reason.
There are some dangers inherent in attempting to expand the rib cage, however, especially with regard to the performance of cross-bench dumbbell pullovers. This exercise emphases “stretch”. This typically mandates arching the back excessively over the bench, and reaching back excessively with the arms while holding a dumbbell. The back arching can lead to irritation of the joints of the spine, dislocation of a costal cartilage, or a dysfunction of the ribs where they articulate with the rib cage. Stretching excessively with the upper arms can overstretch and damage the ligaments of the shoulder joint. So, not only is expansion of the ribcage impossible, it is also potentially hazardous to attempt to do so.
Finally, I would not consider what what one chiropractor told me to be the be all end all to truth and my sole source for fact finding. Chiropractors are considered to be charlatans by many people. Don’t overlook that a chiropractor has a vested interest in telling you anything that will make you believe you need to keep seeing them.
[/quote]
Now that is on the right track. I am going to ask one the the prthopedic MD’s about his thoughts on this ribcage issue as it relates to it being stretched/expanded via weights and see what he says.
[quote]ocn2000 wrote:
I did not literally mean “^^^^”. I meant the whole post.[/quote]
I thought you were being sarcastic about what you perceived as a grammatical error on my part or something. So now I have a ghost writer for forum posts huh? Would it be hoping too much if I were to ask you to elucidate a bit further?
[quote]Pbjoe wrote:
I have heard from many sources about rig cage widening by using methods such as 20-rep squats and pullovers to give the illusion of a wider chest and bigger v cut. My question is if this is actually possible. I have heard evidence that it does work and some that it doesn’t so I ask all you fine people on T-Nation to clear this up for me.[/quote]
It’s called hypertrophy in the back. Mainly the lattimus dorsi.
PLEASE, PLEASE think before you post.
huh? this is possible?